Educate me on the Winchester 87.

[July Smith]

I've handled a few of these and like the awkward look of them, but I really do not know much about JM Browning's Winchester 1887.  I'd like to get one with a drop two mod for shooting Frontiersman and Frontier Cartridge.  What should I look for when buying an original?  Are parts available to repair them?  Are there any good Repos?  I see Chiappa makes one, but they do not seem to be cheaper than what I have seen some originals sell for here on the wire and gunbroker.  Any info or links will be appreciated. 

[Ramblin Gambler]

This should probably be on the wire to get more exposure, not in the saloon.  Maybe you can ask a mod to move it. 

 

I shoot an 87.  Mine is a coyote cap special.  Those are repros made by IAC and worked over by coyote cap.  I handled a NIB IAC version before I had this one and it was rough as all get out.  I recently saw someone using a chiappa gun and it seemed to run fine, but I didn't try it. 

 

There are multiple drop 2 mods.  I like Coyote cap's version best because I believe its the only one that still allows you to use the magazine.  Over on the wire, there are people much more knowledgeable about that. 

[Sedalia Dave]

If I was going to get one to shoot for CAS, I would get one of the clones and have Lassiter work his magic on it.

 

There are two things to know about originals. The 1887 is a black powder only gun. The Model 1901 is safe for light smokeless loads but as far as I know it was only made in 10 ga.

Original 12 ga guns were chambered for 2 1/2 shells and cannot be converted to shoot 2 3/4 because the action is too short.

They are only safe for Black powder loads.

 

The  87 clones only come in 12 ga and are a hybrid of the 10 ga 1901 and the 12 ga 1887 actions. As I understand it, Coyote Cap was instrumental in the development of an 87 12 ga clone that would work reliably for CAS.  

Almost all new 87s you see for sale today are rather rough out of the box. Any of the CAS smiths that work on them clean them up and make them run reliably. 

Currently the only importers I am aware of are taylors, Century Arms and Chiappa.  The Century Arms guns are marked PW-87 have blued receivers and are made in China. The Chiappa imports have a color case receiver and I believe are made in Italy. Taylor's also selling 87s and I believe they are also made in Italy. The PW-87 is about $1000 cheaper than the Chiappa or Taylors guns but they are almost un-shootable out of the box. The Chiappa and Taylors guns are still rough but no where near as bad as the PW-87

 

At one time Chinese 87s were made by NORINCO and imported by IAC. I believe the Coyote Cap marked guns were made by NORINCO. As far as I know NORINCO/IAC is no longer making/importing 87s. The NORINCO/IAC guns were much better out of the box than the PW-87.

 

When slicking one up for CAS your have two options for modifying the action with what is known as a "Drop Two Mod".

 

The first is commonly known as the Coyote Cap mod although other guns smiths can perform this mod as well. The mod makes the carrier had a distinct catch as it is being pushed down into the receiver. The catch stops the carrier so that with two shells in the action the top shell is lined up to be fed into the chamber when the lever is closed. After firing the first shell you cycle the action and it is ejected and the shell on the carrier moves into position and can be chambered. The disadvantage to this mod is that the carrier can be forced past the stop when loading. When this happens the top shell is too low to be chambered and getting the action reset can be difficult without ejecting one of the unfired shells. The advantage is that it is easy to stoke the magazine. Fully loaded the 87 will hold 5 rounds in the magazine, one on the carrier and one in the chamber for a total of 7 rounds.

 

The Second Mod is known as the Lassiter mod and it also stops the carrier so that when two shells are loaded the top shell will chamber as the bolt is closed. The difference is that with the Lassiter mod the stop for the carrier is difficult to override so it is more forgiving when loading the gun on the clock. The disadvantage is that it is very VERY difficult to load the magazine.

 

Up until just recently I had four 87 clones. Two with the Lassiter mod, One stock, and one Coyote Cap. Sold one of the Lassiter modified guns to finance a gun build.

 

You can read about the Coyote Cap 87 here.

 

[Sedalia Dave]

How to properly disassemble an 87

 

 

[Sedalia Dave]

Best video you will find for 87 loading techniques.

 

 

[Ramblin Gambler]

So what happens with an unmodified 87 if you drop in 2 shells? 

[Sedalia Dave]

1 minute ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

So what happens with an unmodified 87 if you drop in 2 shells? 

 

There is still a stop but it is not very pronounced and is very easy to override when loading on the clock.

[Ramblin Gambler]

57 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said:

The first is commonly known as the Coyote Cap mod although other guns smiths can perform this mod as well. The mod makes the carrier had a distinct catch as it is being pushed down into the receiver. The catch stops the carrier so that with two shells in the action the top shell is lined up to be fed into the chamber when the lever is closed. After firing the first shell you cycle the action and it is ejected and the shell on the carrier moves into position and can be chambered. The disadvantage to this mod is that the carrier can be forced past the stop when loading. When this happens the top shell is too low to be chambered and getting the action reset can be difficult without ejecting one of the unfired shells. The advantage is that it is easy to stoke the magazine. Fully loaded the 87 will hold 5 rounds in the magazine, one on the carrier and one in the chamber for a total of 7 rounds.

 

Reading this made me realize I'm probably pushing too hard when I load mine.  I've taken to just shoving both shells in and guiding the top shell into the barrel with my thumb.  But I fumble with that a little. 

 

I think I used to do it right but over time I forgot how it worked and came up with a new method. 

[Smoky Pistols]

2 minutes ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

 

Reading this made me realize I'm probably pushing too hard when I load mine.  I've taken to just shoving both shells in and guiding the top shell into the barrel with my thumb.  But I fumble with that a little. 

 

I think I used to do it right but over time I forgot how it worked and came up with a new method. 

Don't we all brother!  Don't we all!

[July Smith]

Thank you all for the replies and videos.  The Duece Stevens one I had seen before and is actually what peaked my interest in getting an 1887 for SASS.  An original Winchester being limited to only black powder and short shells is not that big of a deal to me.  From what I have read the IAC models get really mixed reviews.  I don't think I have seen a Chiappa in person. 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

They are fun-Come with a 'steep' learning curve.

IMHO-Coolest gun in SASS.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Winchester_Model_1887/1901

 

OLG

[Sedalia Dave]

1 hour ago, July Smith said:

Thank you all for the replies and videos.  The Duece Stevens one I had seen before and is actually what peaked my interest in getting an 1887 for SASS.  An original Winchester being limited to only black powder and short shells is not that big of a deal to me.  From what I have read the IAC models get really mixed reviews.  I don't think I have seen a Chiappa in person. 

 

Chiappa's carry a steep price tag but have nicer wood and the receiver is color case hardened.  The IAC get mixed reviews but if you find one they tend to be easier to slick up than the PW-87.  IIRC there was a batch of IAC that had improperly cut extractors. However a competent 87 smith could correct the issue.  If I were going to buy one ready to do I would contact Lassiter and see if he has one in stock.

 

Tom's Single Action Shop

675 Crawford Tom's Run Rd
New Lebanon, OH 45345
Phone: 937-687-1039

 

Doesn't do email or text. Give him a call.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Only the 'clones' are certified for smokeless 2 3/4" shells in 12 ga.

The only Winny's that are are proofed for smokeless, is the last run of 10 ga, known as the 1901's.

Also-The Winny 12ga, '87 are 2 1/2" chambers.

OLG

[Ramblin Gambler]

Are the 1901s SASS legal? 

[Sedalia Dave]

10 hours ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

Are the 1901s SASS legal? 

 

Yes

 

Quote

 

Lever action, tubular feed, exposed hammer shotguns of the period are allowed, whether original or replicas.

 

 

You could say the 1901 is a replica of the 1887

 

[Smuteye John SASS#24774]

2 hours ago, Sedalia Dave said:

 

Yes

 

 

You could say the 1901 is a replica of the 1878

 

Actually, you can say that it's a slightly updated continuation of the '87 since the serial numbers pick up where the '87 numbers stop. 

 

The problem with using one in CAS is that, while they are smokeless proofed, they are chambered in 2 7/8" and 10 gauge 2 7/8" hull length hasn't been commercially loaded since the '60's.  Even when they were loaded, there wasn't a 'light', 'target' or 'skeet' load in the mix.  Shot's usually too big and there's way more sugar for your nickel that you need to drop KD's at 12 or 15 yards.

 

I trim 3 1/2" hulls down and load with BP or Pyrodex, depending on which I can lay hand on the easiest, for my uncut 1906 vintage Model 1901.  That way, I can tailor the load to be more appropriate for shooting static targets at 15 yards rather than dropping geese at 50.

 

Lumpy's right about the learning curve. 

 

Don't get in a hurry and try to short stroke it and don't try to baby it.  I'm not suggesting that you run it like you stole it or abuse the gun, just don't try to treat it with kid gloves either.  Work the gun like you mean it and let the gun stop the forward motion of your hand when opening.

[Sedalia Dave]

Doing some reading if you want to shoot smokeless loads out of a 1901 you will need to reload components similar to those used in the early 1900.  This means no plastic wads. Plastic wads seal better than the cardboard over powder and felt cushioning wads do. This will cause the chamber pressure to be greater than what the shotgun was originally designed for. 

 

If you want to pay for the loading data, Ballistic Products sells loading data manuals and components for the older obsolete hull lengths.

[Sedalia Dave]

1 hour ago, Smuteye John SASS#24774 said:

Don't get in a hurry and try to short stroke it and don't try to baby it.  I'm not suggesting that you run it like you stole it or abuse the gun, just don't try to treat it with kid gloves either.  Work the gun like you mean it and let the gun stop the forward motion of your hand when opening.

 

+100

[Smuteye John SASS#24774]

1 hour ago, Sedalia Dave said:

Doing some reading if you want to shoot smokeless loads out of a 1901 you will need to reload components similar to those used in the early 1900.  This means no plastic wads. Plastic wads seal better than the cardboard over powder and felt cushioning wads do. This will cause the chamber pressure to be greater than what the shotgun was originally designed for. 

 

If you want to pay for the loading data, Ballistic Products sells loading data manuals and components for the older obsolete hull lengths.

I use fiber wads from Circle Fly. 

 

Guns from that era have a shorter forcing cone and are designed to work with fiber wads.  They throw better patterns in my gun than the modified Remington plastic wads I tinkered with, too.  Since the gun is stock with the full choke, I even tinkered with spreader loads for the clays.  Didn't make enough of a difference to be worth the bother.

 

Fiber works better for me with BP since I can adjust the shot column height more easily so I can roll crimp (I use the roll crimper from Ballistic Products that chucks into a drill or drill press), too.  If  I was loading for a double, I'd just trim the hull to the length the shot column height dictated but I don't want to play with hull length on a tube fed gun and end up creating feeding issues.