ROTC 2nd LT Training Module.

[Subdeacon Joe]

https://www.military.com/daily-news/2018/07/31/rotc-cadets-lost-land-navigation-course-rescued.html

 

Quote

Two Army ROTC cadets visiting from the mainland were rescued Sunday after spending the night lost in a jungle warfare course in Wahiawa.

Lt. Col. Curtis Kellogg, spokesman for the Army's 25th Infantry Division, said two college students became lost while participating Saturday in land navigation training in Schofield Barracks East Range. The cadets were in the jungle operations training course, which is about 6 square miles covered with dense vegetation.

 

[Sparky Nelson]

I can think of worse things than being lost in Hawaii. Being lost in Australia comes to mind.

 

 

 

[Chantry]

And we're going to entrust calling in artillery & airstrikes to them?   

[Charlie Harley, #14153]

17 minutes ago, Chantry said:

And we're going to entrust calling in artillery & airstrikes to them?   

 

Let’s hope they got good NCOs with them to keep the red stick pointed north. 

[Sparky Nelson]

4 minutes ago, Charlie Harley, #14153 said:

Let’s hope they got good NCOs with them to keep the red stick pointed north. 

 

That was probably the point of the training, to demonstrate to them just how far up the creek they'll be without a decent NCO.

[Chantry]

Back when I was in the CT ANG, there was a rumor floating around that the artillery 2nd Lt who was my platoon leader allegedly fired a live 105mm round over the main highway that runs the length of Cape Cod.  Never did find out if the story was true or not.

[Badlands Bob #61228]

The two most dangerous people in the military are a 2nd Lt. with a compass and a Colonel with less than 2 months to retirement.

[Tennessee Trapper Tom]

31 minutes ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said:

The two most dangerous people in the military are a 2nd Lt. with a compass and a Colonel with less than 2 months to retirement.

How about a 2nd Lt with a protractor and map, no compass. Point the north end of the protractor towards the sun on top of a map in the cupola of a tank leading a platoon. I was a Staff Sergeant in the M88 following.  I never laughed so hard. I let him get so lost while keeping up with our position. We were at NTC California. I got the 1st Sgt to deliver a cold dinner around 2 am in the morning.  Needless to say he got a lot of training and never f#$ked with me again! 

[Utah Bob #35998]

They are ROTC cadets, not 2nd Lts .......yet.

Better to screw up in training than in combat.

[Redleg Reilly, SASS #46372]

31 minutes ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

They are ROTC cadets, not 2nd Lts .......yet.

Better to screw up in training than in combat.

That is exactly the point of cadet training.   And while it is easy to make fun of 2Lt's, I gave seen more than my share of screwed up NCOs.  Funny how no one wants to talk about those guys.....

[DocWard]

6 hours ago, Chantry said:

Back when I was in the CT ANG, there was a rumor floating around that the artillery 2nd Lt who was my platoon leader allegedly fired a live 105mm round over the main highway that runs the length of Cape Cod.  Never did find out if the story was true or not.

 

Back in the early 90's the Illinois National Guard sent an artillery shell out of the training area that hit a house. The owners were out watching, somewhat ironically in my mind, Forrest Gump.

I won't say I've never been lost. Well, not exactly, anyway. As a PFC, during Day Land Nav for Expert Field Medic Badge testing in 1989 at Camp A.P. Hill, I was issued a map that was older than I was. No, that is not an exaggeration. I was born in 1966, the map had a 1965 date on it. After hitting the first two of four points, including the long leg, I had been on the course for awhile. About the time I was supposed to be in the middle of dense woods, I watched as an AH-1 Cobra took off about 20 yards from me, and trying to figure out where I was, I tried to work out the problem. After shooting a back-azimuth, and trying to figure things out, I realized I couldn't finish the course in time, and I decided to shoot the "Escape Azimuth" and go to the hardball road beside the land nav course. There was supposed to be an ambulance traveling up and down the road picking people up, so I sat where what was marked on the map as a "jeep trail" intersected with the road and pulled out my MRE.

 

After taking my time eating my MRE, I sat for awhile longer. When I had been sitting for over an hour, I got up and started walking along the road. About the time I was within a quarter mile of the rally area, I could hear a voice in the woods calling my name. I responded, and the soldier looking for me came over. He asked me if I was OK, and I told him I was hot, tired and irritable, but just fine. We walked to the rally area, and the LT in charge of the land nav training started dressing me down for not getting back in a timely fashion, not following orders, etc... He asked me why I hadn't done as instructed and shoot an escape azimuth to the road, I told him I had, and I did, and as no ambulance ever appeared, I walked down the road to get back. About this time, he gave me an odd look, and called over the NCO tasked with driving the ambulance, and with my map, asked the Sergeant how far up he had been driving. The Sergeant pointed to the jeep trail (the only one on the map and that I had seen) and said that is where he turned around every time. For one of the few times in my military career I lost military bearing, I exploded "B---S---! If you had, you would have run my a-- over, because I was sitting in the middle of it." The Sergeant's eyes got huge and the LT held up his hand to get me under control. The LT nodded and apologized, and said he would take care of things. Meanwhile, a couple of guys in my unit had my C.O. convinced I was dead or dying on the course...

[Pat Riot]

I have seen plenty of walking C.F.'s in the Zero and the Enlisted Ranks. Like Bob said, better to screw up in training...

 

I wonder what their nick-names will be? Fugowee 1 and Fugowee 2?

[Capt. R. Hugh Kidnme]

5 hours ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

They are ROTC cadets, not 2nd Lts .......yet.

Better to screw up in training than in combat.

Hang up callers. we have a winner.

You got it right, it's the very point of the training.

[Noz]

5 hours ago, Redleg Reilly, SASS #46372 said:

That is exactly the point of cadet training.   And while it is easy to make fun of 2Lt's, I gave seen more than my share of screwed up NCOs.  Funny how no one wants to talk about those guys.....

I had an E-6 weapons specialist in Germany that came to work only when he was awakened by his CO to correct a weapons problem. The rest of the time he was too drunk.  I, a 2nd Lt asked why this was allowed, I was told that he was such a problem when they tried to make him do anything but weapon correction it simply wasn't worth it.

[Chantry]

6 hours ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

They are ROTC cadets, not 2nd Lts .......yet.

Better to screw up in training than in combat.

True

 

And despite some mild encouragement from some officers to go to the CT ANG OCS school, I was quite happy to remain a Spec-4 during my term of enlistment.

[Utah Bob #35998]

I was rather surprised to find out that OCS is a 12 week program these days. 23 when I went to Benning in 67. Prolly today’s candidates are more smarter than we  wuz. Must be the computers.

 

[DocWard]

8 hours ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

I was rather surprised to find out that OCS is a 12 week program these days. 23 when I went to Benning in 67. Prolly today’s candidates are more smarter than we  wuz. Must be the computers.

 

 

23? Did that include the branch specific OBC? The last I checked, OCS in the National Guard was about a year and a half of weekends, with two, two week trainings. Followed by the officer basic course within a specified period of time. When I came into the Guard, I considered OCS or a direct commission in JAG. Then I got the opportunity to be a medic. I will never say I regret the decision, because I still believe I enjoyed being a medic more than I would've enjoyed being a JAG or other officer, but in retrospect, the money would've been very helpful.

[Utah Bob #35998]

4 hours ago, DocWard said:

 

23? Did that include the branch specific OBC? The last I checked, OCS in the National Guard was about a year and a half of weekends, with two, two week trainings. Followed by the officer basic course within a specified period of time. When I came into the Guard, I considered OCS or a direct commission in JAG. Then I got the opportunity to be a medic. I will never say I regret the decision, because I still believe I enjoyed being a medic more than I would've enjoyed being a JAG or other officer, but in retrospect, the money would've been very helpful.

I don’t know about NG, just active. Infantry OCS was 6 months at Benning School for Boys.

 

 

 

[Trailrider #896]

About the most lost on a military "mission" that I was, was trying to get to a Minuteman missile site in India-flight in the Malmstrom AFB, Montana complex.  We had a site road map, but there were inaccuracies in the map (some roads weren't showing where they actually were).  At night, you could see the lights from the site, but you could sure get fouled up trying to get there!  Finally did, of course.  Most people had trouble with that one site.  Daytime was worse because there weren't any lights to guide you in.  Finally took to marking the map with local landmarks (ranchers' houses, etc.). 

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

7 hours ago, Trailrider #896 said:

About the most lost on a military "mission" that I was, was trying to get to a Minuteman missile site in India-flight in the Malmstrom AFB, Montana complex.  We had a site road map, but there were inaccuracies in the map (some roads weren't showing where they actually were).  At night, you could see the lights from the site, but you could sure get fouled up trying to get there!  Finally did, of course.  Most people had trouble with that one site.  Daytime was worse because there weren't any lights to guide you in.  Finally took to marking the map with local landmarks (ranchers' houses, etc.). 

The map I saw in the Red Army training room was just fine.

[Utah Bob #35998]

I found out that you should not keep your eyes glued to the compass while navigating on a moonless night. You might have a minor accident. Like walking off a small cliff for instance.

[Dustin Checotah]

I took map reading in Jr. ROTC in high school. I had a real good grade in that section but it was all on paper I never got to try it in the field. I probably would have ended up like those people without any practical experience.

 

[Marshal Mo Hare, SASS #45984]

Could the oblectbe, “Getting ‘I’m lost and see how they deal with it?”

[MAYOBARD SASS #13025L]

[Major Hazzard, SASS #23254]

On ‎8‎/‎1‎/‎2018 at 1:17 PM, Redleg Reilly, SASS #46372 said:

That is exactly the point of cadet training.   And while it is easy to make fun of 2Lt's, I gave seen more than my share of screwed up NCOs.  Funny how no one wants to talk about those guys.....

I'll talk about them.  This folklore suggesting an NCO is without question a better soldier or more capable leader than a junior officer gets old after awhile.  After three years in a National Guard mechanized infantry battalion I never met one single NCO who could find his butt with both hands using a map and a compass and terrain association to go to a spot on the ground unless he'd been there 15 or 20 times over the past dozen or so ATs.  Put them out to maneuver their squads, mounted or dismounted, especially in the dark, and the results were downright predictable.  And after near 23 years of active duty service as a Field Artilleryman (83-05), I can also tell you precious few junior NCOs were capable of land navigation in the old school sense, meaning map, compass, terrain association, especially at night.  Throw in some fatigue and stress and things get tough for everyone.  We're a bit spoiled these days by the various GPS systems, but there is no substitute for good training and tons of practice,  for junior NCOs and junior officers both.  And a little mutual respect can go a long ways.  Oh, and anyone who buys into that crap about a lieutenant sending a round out of safe, all by himself, clearly knows diddle about how peacetime live fire works.  That takes teamwork and leads to investigations and a lot of big sad faces, officer and enlisted.

[DocWard]

On 8/2/2018 at 8:31 AM, Utah Bob #35998 said:

I don’t know about NG, just active. Infantry OCS was 6 months at Benning School for Boys.

 

 

 

 

At the end of the training you were commissioned as an Infantry Officer, though? Without further training?

[Utah Bob #35998]

15 minutes ago, DocWard said:

 

At the end of the training you were commissioned as an Infantry Officer, though? Without further training?

Yes. We had already completed basic and advanced infantry training as enlisted men.

Here’s the kid (on the right) about an hour after commissioning, having just packed our duffels for the long trip in Jeff’s Mustang all the way over to jump school, about 10 minutes away. 

[DocWard]

1 hour ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

Yes. We had already completed basic and advanced infantry training as enlisted men.

Here’s the kid (on the right) about an hour after commissioning, having just packed our duffels for the long trip in Jeff’s Mustang all the way over to jump school, about 10 minutes away. 

 

That's what I thought. The length I mentioned for OCS in the Guard just gets you ready to go to your branch specific school. I wonder if that is why it is shortened on the active side as well.

[Utah Bob #35998]

Jeff shipped that car to Germany later. We drove it all around Bavaria. The Germans had never seen one. 

[Trailrider #896]

Other than my little escapade with the site map, I've always preferred a map to that GPS stuff. Don't even have one, by choice, in my new vehicle!  My Dad taught me to read a map about as soon as I could read.  When  we would go on a trip (by car, on two-lane roads back then), I would "navigate" for him, marking off checkpoints as we passed them, and giving him the distances to the next checkpoint.  Those GPS sets in vehicles are handy, providing there isn't unrecorded road construction, accidents, etc., ahead.  What really worries me is our military and civil aviation's almost complete dependence on the GPS system, for everything from navigation to targeting GPS-guided munitions.  If Kim or somebody, instead of hitting one of our cities, sends a strong-EMP weapon straight up and explodes it in the Van Allen belts, you're liable to have a bunch of knocked out GPS satellites...although the military is taking steps to harden the equipment.

[Trailrider #896]

12 hours ago, MAYOBARD SASS #13025L said:

"Retreat, Hell! We're just attacking in another direction!"  (Or, it may have been MGEN O.P. Smith who said it.)