PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 Quote A rifle is considered SAFE for movement (in hand, while moving through a stage) in the following condition only: - Hammer fully down on an empty chamber or expended round, action closed. - Action open, round on carrier or in chamber. SHB p.15 Quote - Changing location/moving with a live round under a cocked hammer or firearm with the hammer down on a live round. - Changing location with a long gun with the action closed and the hammer cocked. SHB p.22 (STAGE DISQUALIFICATION PENALTY) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Yusta B. Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 For me it is ingrained to lever rifle twice and lower the hammer fully down. It takes very little time, if you look at the chamber before closing the second time you have confidence that no round will be chambered ( lever guns). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 3 minutes ago, Yusta B. said: For me it is ingrained to lever rifle twice and lower the hammer fully down. It takes very little time, if you look at the chamber before closing the second time you have confidence that no round will be chambered ( lever guns). There's also this to consider...for those clubs that bother to have the LTO position manned: Quote - Loading Table Officer – is responsible for visually checking to ensure all firearms are loaded with only the correct number of rounds, verify no round is ever under the firing pin of any firearm, and all loaded firearms’ hammers are fully down on an empty chamber. SHB p.21 Two sets of eyes SHOULD prevent the violation from even occurring in the first place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Eye Jim Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 Speaking of LTOs, a couple of the clubs here have instituted the person behind rule. I.E. the person that is coming to the loading table is the LTO for the person that has started loading. Once you're loaded you have the person behind you check your guns, hopefully before they start loading theirs. Seems to work out pretty good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rance - SASS # 54090 Posted July 20, 2018 Share Posted July 20, 2018 1 hour ago, Yusta B. said: For me it is ingrained to lever rifle twice and lower the hammer fully down. It takes very little time, if you look at the chamber before closing the second time you have confidence that no round will be chambered ( lever guns). I have also done this forever.. (Ingrained as you say) but.. Once, loading the rifle, I had and extra round left over.. Picked up my rifle and levered them all out.. Ah hah!! I had put a pistol round in my rifle.. Reloaded the rifle... Cool.. 10 rifle rounds in.. Good to go.. I had broken my routine.. Fergot to drop the hammer.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Jorge Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 I vote to not change the current rule. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCandless Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 2 hours ago, Red Eye Jim said: Speaking of LTOs, a couple of the clubs here have instituted the person behind rule. I.E. the person that is coming to the loading table is the LTO for the person that has started loading. Once you're loaded you have the person behind you check your guns, hopefully before they start loading theirs. Whichever way y'all decide on the hammer rule. I've seen it with pistols and rifles... (usually with newer shooters), coming to the line with hammer fully down on a live round. Not using the safety notch on the rifle can be a hazard if you're not going to insist on some kind of loading table officer protocol. Easy fix, insist on some kind of loading table officer protocol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted July 21, 2018 Author Share Posted July 21, 2018 One match I go to insists on a LTO. only allow 1 person to load at a time. I once was loading pistols, had a high primer, pulled out the offending round, forgot to replace it. Got to stage, 4 bangs and a click. Went around again, no joy. Loaded a round from belt, shot it, moved on. The TO was ok with it, a member of the posse (not a counter) kept saying it was an MSV because I could have had a live round under hammer. I kept saying no way a live round was under hammer. He never got it. Long dtory short, while LTOs are a good thing, they are not infallible either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 35 minutes ago, Hoss said: One match I go to insists on a LTO. only allow 1 person to load at a time. I once was loading pistols, had a high primer, pulled out the offending round, forgot to replace it. Got to stage, 4 bangs and a click. Went around again, no joy. Loaded a round from belt, shot it, moved on. The TO was ok with it, a member of the posse (not a counter) kept saying it was an MSV because I could have had a live round under hammer. I kept saying no way a live round was under hammer. He never got it. Long dtory short, while LTOs are a good thing, they are not infallible either. There is no penalty for possibly having a live round under the hammer...besides, if the revolver went bang, then you holstered it, it's physically impossible to have a live round under the hammer. Also...talk about micro-managing...only one loading at a time???? Oy... Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hoss Posted July 21, 2018 Author Share Posted July 21, 2018 34 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: There is no penalty for possibly having a live round under the hammer...besides, if the revolver went bang, then you holstered it, it's physically impossible to have a live round under the hammer. Also...talk about micro-managing...only one loading at a time???? Oy... Phantom Correct. I fired the reloaded round, it was empty case under hammer. No doubt. At the time, I thought I had a dud round, and so loaded a 6th and shot it. Was not until I got to ult that i realized I had only loaded 4 at the loading table. Something the LTO missed as well. I always thought it funny that the only range I go to that insists on a LTO and only 1 person loading at a time would be the range I do not correctly load my gun! posse member making the fuss kept saying I could not reload 1, and that gun was unsafe to reholster as I’d did not know where unfired round was, which was true, but I did know where it wasn’t, under the hammer! I got a MD ruling, correct ruling was made. No call Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McCandless Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 Just because there's a LTO doesn't mean you won't make mistakes. But, if I'm on the table I check that no gun leaves that table unless the hammer is down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ The Red Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 I know there is a difference between what SASS considers safe and what the lawyers at the gun manufacturer consider safe. The Winchester 73 Owner's Manual states to keep the rifle at half-cock unless firing is imminent. So they feel the safest condition for their gun is the half-cocked position even with a round in the chamber. So if you have an AD and your rifle is in the dropped position they are no longer legally responsible for the AD. Does SASS want to override the manufacturer's warning? IN other words, the "safest" position may vary from rifle to rifle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Clark Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 34 minutes ago, HRandRHBoyd said: I know there is a difference between what SASS considers safe and what the lawyers at the gun manufacturer consider safe. The Winchester 73 Owner's Manual states to keep the rifle at half-cock unless firing is imminent. So they feel the safest condition for their gun is the half-cocked position even with a round in the chamber. Just cause a lawyer thinks it's the way things should be doesn't mean it's the safest condition! Not meaning to offend the noblility of attorneys, but that's like asking one of them the best way to drive a car, fly a plane, plow a field, ride a ATV, run a chain saw, play shortstop, put a light bulb in a socket............. Those attorneys, ya gotta love em......... Bless their hearts! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramblin Gambler Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 Well, they've got a point. If I was carrying one in the woods with a round chambered, I'd have it on half cock. But with the lever guns I'm used to hunting with, you can tell when they're loaded when the hammer is all the way down because the hammer doesn't sit flush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Clark Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 7 hours ago, Ramblin Gambler said: Well, they've got a point. If I was carrying one in the woods with a round chambered, I'd have it on half cock. But with the lever guns I'm used to hunting with, you can tell when they're loaded when the hammer is all the way down because the hammer doesn't sit flush. That might apply if the OP was on a hunting trip! The condition that hunting guns are carried afield often differs wildly from the condition that competition guns are staged in at a CAS match. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Russ The Red Posted July 21, 2018 Share Posted July 21, 2018 11 hours ago, Captain Clark said: Just cause a lawyer thinks it's the way things should be doesn't mean it's the safest condition! Not meaning to offend the noblility of attorneys, but that's like asking one of them the best way to drive a car, fly a plane, plow a field, ride a ATV, run a chain saw, play shortstop, put a light bulb in a socket............. Those attorneys, ya gotta love em......... Bless their hearts! Having come from the construction world, Captain Clark you are 100% correct. One of the things that really caught my attention in the Winchester Manual, was the lowering the hammer to half-cock when there was a bullet in the chamber. That could start an avalanche of comments on this chain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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