Conversions, conversions, show me your conversions!

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

This post is inspired by some discussions that have happened in other threads.

 

Many of us are interested in cartridge conversions of cap & ball revolvers.  Obviously there are several different types of revolvers by several different makers that can be converted, and there are more than a few different ways to have those conversions done.   I thought I would share some of these variations with the wire for reference purposes.

 

To start with, there are two major types of conversions on the market today.  (But not only two ways to do it.)  The "loading gate" conversion as typified by Kirst, and the "drop in cylinder" type conversion, as typified by R&D, Holland, Taylors and others.   The first time I encountered this type, they were called R&D.  I am not sure exactly how it all works, but somehow those three brands are related to each other.   For simplicity, I will refer to them as R&D in this post.

 

 

We'll start with an Uberti Walker with a Kirst cylinder.

 

 

As you can see, the Kirst type requires the frame to be cut.  This is so you can load the cartridges from the rear of the cylinder like a Single Action Army.  You will also notice that there is no ejector rod.  This is because, as of the time I had this done and took this picture, Kirst does not make one for the Walker.

 

 

With the loading gate open, you can see how this type uses a kind of ring behind the cylinder, and why the cut to the frame is needed.

 

 

Finally, with the hammer cocked, you can see how no modifications have been made to the hammer, and if you desire to go back to cap & ball, all you have to do is swap the cartridge cylinder back for the original one.

 

 

 

This is a (Second Generation) Colt Dragoon with an R&D type cylinder.

 

 

As you can see, no cut to the frame is needed.   I deliberately chose to do it this way because I didn't want to cut a "real" Colt.

 

 

Like with the Kirst, no modification to the hammer is required, allowing you to go back to cap & ball with a cylinder swap.  Of course, that is the drawback to this type of conversion...

 

 

To swap cylinders, or load and unload the cartridge one, you need to basically take the pistol apart every time.   This is a relatively slow process, and why, for Colt types, I prefer the Kirst style conversion. 

 

By the way, both of these guns were converted to .45 Colt

 

 

 

But now, let's take a look at the different ways that you can convert a Remington type revolver.

 

This is an honest to goodness real Remington.

 

 

This is what is known colloquially as a "factory conversion."  Technically, it's not a conversion at all, but left the factory configured to fire .38 Long Colt ammunition.  This gun has seen some life.  The front site is a Mercury dime, for example.  You can't see it very well, but the ejector rod is a simple one that you move back and forth by hand, and is held in place by a notch cut into the loading lever.

 

 

You can see here with the loading gate open how this is not exactly a ring behind the cylinder like in a modern Kirst cylinder, but that the "ring" has been permanently installed.

 

 

That, plus the way the hammer has been cut to have a firing pin on it means that this type of "conversion" can not be switched back to cap and ball.  According to my research, before they started making brand new cartridge guns, Remington marketed this for a couple of years.   I assume to use up the old parts.

 

But what about a modern reproduction of the Remington?  Well, there are two ways to do it.

 

This is an Uberti 58 with a Kirst type conversion to .38 Special.

 

 

While the same style ejector as the vintage ones are available, for this one I decided to go with a spring loaded one, just because.

 

 

With the gate open, you can see how the ring can easily be removed.

 

 

And with no modification to the hammer, switched back to cap and ball.

 

 

And of course, you can do the conversion R&D style, if you want to.

 

The gun currently has it's .45 Colt cylinder installed, with the .44 cap & ball in the case.    Believe it or not, I got this whole thing for $250 bucks!

 

Anyway...

 

 

As you can see, no cuts to the frame are needed with this type of a conversion.  And of course, you can swap back to cap & ball with a quick change of cylinder.

 

 

Which is remarkably easy to do with this type of a revolver.   While with the Colt type the Kirst is to me the "better" way to do it, with the Remington, it's six of one and half a dozen of the other.  It really all comes down to preference.  Both ways are equally viable in my opinion

 

 

 

So, is there anything else?  There were a lot of different cap & ball type revolvers.  Can any of them be converted?   Yes.

 

 

This is a reproduction Rogers & Spencer, .45 Colt.  I found it advertised as a "movie prop" gun, and was quite cheap.  The timing was off, and the cylinder had a tendency to move forward a little, taking it too far away from the firing pin to actually fire.  You can see how the frame has been cut to load the cylinder, but no gate has been installed.   Although hard to see, there is a very thin plate behind the cylinder to create the correct depth of gap between the frame and the back of the cylinder.  I took it to a gunsmith to correct these issues and make sure it was okay to shoot.  It is.

 

 

The hammer has also been reshaped to have a firing pin on it, so no swapping back to cap & ball.    While this one is mine, I have seen one other C&B conversion of this pistol.  Obviously the loading lever has been removed from this one, and I am pretty sure the barrel has been shortened.  And of course, the coin front sight is not original.  With all of its original parts, the gun's design is very similar to the Remington.  The conversion I saw was R&D type, and I have seen cylinders for this gun still on the market in that style.

 

 

And that's about all I can share about cartridge conversions for cap & ball type revolvers.  My next conversion will be an 1860 Colt.  It'll be my first Pietta as Kirst says that the Uberti's have problems with their style of conversion.  

 

After that?   Perhaps another '58 Remington, in "Army" configuration.   Kirst or R&D, I could go either way on that.

 

After after that?   Well, the Navy had .36 caliber cap & balls.  I've already got a Remington so converted, but there are the 2 Colts that sailors were equipped with for me to consider.

 

Only time will tell.

[Boomstick Bruce]

ok... my turn...

 

top is my ASM "colt address" walker with a spare barrel I bought, cut down to 3inches, give or take, and added a rear shotgun bead for a front site. taylors drop in 45colt cylinder

 

next is my stainless 5.5" ruger old army with curly maple grips, also taylors drop in 45colt

 

finally, these are my pride and joy, my pair of stainless taylors/uberti 1858's with 5.5" barrels and kirst gated 45colt cylinders with mason style ejectors, Wolff 32280 main springs, and custom made front sites, grips are American walnut... these are the guns I shoot SASS with

 

 

 

 

please don't ask me how much money I have into those guns, I don't want to think about it...lol...

 

 

 

[Goody, SASS #26190]

Nice pictures and writeup, HK. Just one point of contention however. With your first example you are not required to cut the frame.  Only if you want to load through the gate. You can also forgo cutting the frame and just take it apart to load like the R&D.

 

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

1 hour ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

Nice pictures and writeup, HK. Just one point of contention however. With your first example you are not required to cut the frame.  Only if you want to load through the gate. You can also forgo cutting the frame and just take it apart to load like the R&D.

 

 

Right, yeah.

 

But, uhm, to me at least, the whole point of having the Kirst type is that you can load it from the rear through the gate.    If you're not gonna do that, then sure, go with the R&D and don't cut it.  

[Ramblin Gambler]

Can you safely go back to Cap N Ball if you cut the frame?  Thought someone on the wire said it was a little less safe and it made sense to me at the time.  Now I can't remember the details, but I was leaning towards an R&D for my remmy clones because of that. 

 

 

[Boomstick Bruce]

13 minutes ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

Can you safely go back to Cap N Ball if you cut the frame?  Thought someone on the wire said it was a little less safe and it made sense to me at the time.  Now I can't remember the details, but I was leaning towards an R&D for my remmy clones because of that. 

 

 

yes, and it actually makes it easier to cap the gun when you're shooting C&B with all that metal out of the way

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

My Baby ROA

Percussion & conversion

[Slowhand Bob, 24229]

I really wish I could post photos again BUT lost my web page host many years ago.  I am rapidly moving towards a small stable of convertibles that will offer quick interchange between FRONTIERSMAN and FRONTIER CARTRIDGE plus allow ten stage matches to be shot with preloaded cylinders.  I actually bought some plastic gun cases a few days ago to store/haul these sets to the range.  Every thing is done on a budget rather than actual custom for beauty but thats just my life anyway!

[Chili Ron]

Howdy,

Love the baby ROA.

How do I get one?

Best

CR

pm me if that's better....

 

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

2 hours ago, Chili Ron said:

Howdy,

Love the baby ROA.

How do I get one?

Best

CR

pm me if that's better....

 

 

Hi Chili:

Itsa custom job.

Ya gotta find a smith willing to do all the work.

Johnny Meadows will cut the barrel & re-install the site.

I don't know if he'll cut & weld the gripframe into a birdshead, although you can get a Ruger birdshead & make a block for the coil & plunger trigger return spring

This one has a custom birdshead fitted with tru-ivory grips.

--Dawg

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

Here’s a whitneyville dragoon I had converted with a kirst

[Rancho Roy]

 

http://public.fotki.com/Rbertalotto/things-that-go-bang/1860-colt-pietta/

 

 

http://public.fotki.com/Rbertalotto/things-that-go-bang/1858-remington/

 

 

http://public.fotki.com/Rbertalotto/things-that-go-bang/open-top-conversion/

 

 

[Brimstone Bill Willson]

Here are my three conversions:

Pietta 1860 w/ 6.5" & 3.5" barrels, Kirst gated cylinder 

Pietta Remington NMA w/ Kirst non-gated cylinder

Uberti 3rd Model Dragoon w/ gated Kirst cylinder

[Goody, SASS #26190]

23 hours ago, Slowhand Bob, 24229 said:

I really wish I could post photos again BUT lost my web page host many years ago.  I am rapidly moving towards a small stable of convertibles that will offer quick interchange between FRONTIERSMAN and FRONTIER CARTRIDGE plus allow ten stage matches to be shot with preloaded cylinders.  I actually bought some plastic gun cases a few days ago to store/haul these sets to the range.  Every thing is done on a budget rather than actual custom for beauty but thats just my life anyway!

You no longer need a third party hosting site to put pictures into a post on here.  When you are typing your reply there will be a paper clip directly below the box you are typing in. It says "Drag files here to attach, or choose files.....  The Choose files is a link that when pressed will allow you to go to your hard drive and search your computer for the pictures that you want to include, like this one.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

[watab kid]

i got the bug - mine is a traditional 1851 with the two piece drop in cylinder , no loading port , its not the most convenient but i do enjoy it a lot , it goes to the range more than a lot of my others for the fun of it , 

[Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474]

My tuned open tops in .45 Colt.

[Jacobite Jack]

I've been bitten by the conversion bug.  Through a long process that began with A German pard "Longjohns Wolf",  I am having a pair of LCC conversions built from a pair of Centaure 1960's.  The LCC "long cylinder colt", to my knowledge was the earliest conversion. They were built by private gunsmiths, not at the Colt factory. Most used the Henry rimfire cartridge utilizing a healed bullet.  Therefore they were in a sense 44 cal.  My guns have new cylinders and no loading gate.  The lever has been left in place but shortened as the barrels have been cut to six inches.  The frames have been cut to load from the back.  The hammers have also been cut down and firing pin pinned into the face. A top half recoil plate has been welded in place.  The barrels have been lined ".428" to accommodate the modern 44 colt. Which is about as close as you can get to being period correct without the use of a healed bullet.  The rear sights have been dovetailed into the rear of the barrels.  They have been tuned and slicked up internally.  They operate and shoot flawlessly.  They are currently at the shop having the sights installed.  I will follow up with photos when they are returned to my possession.

 

To my knowledge through extensive research,  this pair of pistols will be the first LCC conversions produced in America since the 1860's.  I chose the Centaure 1960 New Model Army as opposed to Uberti or Colt, due to the precision and exacting standards used by the Belgians.  The manufacturer of the Centaures was the same family that produced many of the guns and parts for Colt during the civil war period.  Due to demand Colt outsourced much of the manufacturing from a license in 1853 by Sam Colt to "Union d'Armes de Liege" in Belgium.  In a sense the Centaure 1960 Army is as close to a real Colt as it gets. 

 

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

Howdy

 

Here is my old 1858 EuroArms Remmie that I bought way back in 1975. A bunch of years ago I decided to buy a conversion cylinder for it. I chose the R&D six shot 45 Colt cylinder that had been designed by Ken Howell and was being marketed by Taylors. Before I had the conversion done, I had the front sight replaced with a taller one. Back in those days these revolvers were being imported with short front sights and tended to shoot high. After having a gunsmith install the taller sight, I fired a few rounds to be sure it printed down where I wanted it to, then I sent the pistol to Taylors to have a cylinder fitted to it. I could probably have installed the cylinder myself, but Taylors had a deal where they would take a fresh cylinder that had not yet had the cylinder locking slots cut. They put my Remmie on a fixture that duplicated exactly where the slots needed to be cut, and custom cut the slots for a perfect match to my revolver. While he was at it, the gunsmith at Taylors shaved a few thousands off the face of the cylinder so it would fit properly, and had the whole thing reblued. I mention this because Taylors did all this work FOR FREE! They only charged me for the cylinder and to ship the gun and cylinder back to me.

 

 

 

 

 

Here is a view of the Remmie with its cylinder. The 'chamber viewing windows' were a custom feature that Happy Trails cut onto the cylinder for me. As received, 45 Schofield rims would not fit into the counterbores for the rims, they were slightly too large. Hap opened up the counterbores, and while he was at it he cut them through to the outsides of the cylinder to make 'viewing windows'. This makes it easy to tell at a glance which chamber is empty. I understand the conversion cylinders sold by Taylors today include these features.

 

 

 

 

 

I will add that the chambers in this cylinder are more precisely cut than the chambers in any of my Colt, clone, or Ruger 45 Colt revolvers, making this Remmie the most accurate of all my 45 Colt revolvers. In fact, I use this cylinder as a cartridge gauge when loading 45 Colt. Any round that slips into this cylinder is guaranteed to chamber in the more loosely toleranced cylinders of the other brands.

 

By the way, some folks can't understand the logic of buying a C&B revolver and then adding the cost of a conversion cylinder. Why not just buy a cartridge gun they ask. Well, I bought this Remmie over 40 years ago, and don't really remember what I paid for it. What ever I paid, the cost was amortized so long ago that buying a conversion cylinder for just over $200 was like buying a new cartridge gun.

 

 

Shortly after I had the first Remington converted I found a stainless Uberti Remington used at a gun show, and it came equipped with one of Taylors' conversion cylinders. I don't remember what I paid for it, but I do know with both cylinders it cost about what a used cartridge revolver would cost.

 

 

 

 

 

Here is something you don't see every day. An original Colt Richards Conversion. It is chambered for the original 44 Colt cartridge and those are four original cartridges next to it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This one is an ongoing project. I had to mess around with it just a little bit to get the action to lock up properly.  I bought a mold from Old West Bullet Molds for a heeled 44 Colt Bullet, but the first batch I cast up were a little bit too small for the worn old rifling. So I sent the mold back and Bernie shaved a teeny bit off so the bullets would come out a little bit bigger. I'm ashamed to say I have not cast up any more bullets from the modified mold. I bought a crimp die for the heeled bullets too. I ordered a batch of 44 Colt brass from Starline, but when they arrived I found that 44 Russian brass are almost exactly the same dimensions, except they are shorter. In deference to the old iron the cylinder is made from I will probably load my ammo with 44 Russian brass in stead of 44 Colt, because the reduced powder charge should be a little bit more forgiving for the old cylinder.

 

 

 

 

Here is something you really don't see very often.

 

This is a very recent acquisition. An original 1858 Remington converted to shoot 32-20.

 

 

 

 

 

A firing pin was mounted in the hammer. It looks like a sleeve was added to the front of the cylinder to make up for the amount that was cut off at the rear.

 

 

 

 

 

A 'new' octagonal barrel was mated to the frame. The shape of the dovetailed front sight makes me wonder if the barrel is off an old Winchester 32-20.

 

 

 

 

 

The cylinder was sleeved for 32-20.

 

 

 

 

 

A nice little rear sight was added to the top of the frame.

 

 

 

 

 

This puppy is ready to shoot. The only thing that is stopping me is the hammer takes two men and a boy to cock. I need to see if I can replace the spring with one out of a modern Italian replica. I won't mind grinding down a replacement spring, but I would hate to ruin an original.

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

49 minutes ago, Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 said:

Howdy...

 

...Here is something you really don't see very often.

 

This is a very recent acquisition. An original 1858 Remington converted to shoot 32-20....

Howdy.  That is extremely cool.  "really don't see very often" is an understatement. 

[Ramblin Gambler]

Am I the only one what can't see driftwood's pictures? 

 

On 7/3/2018 at 9:39 AM, Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474 said:

My tuned open tops in .45 Colt.

 

I'm new to this.  What kinda conversion is this?  I thought kirsts had a ring on the back and the other kind didn't have ejector rods because you have to remove the cylinder. 

 

[Boomstick Bruce]

24 minutes ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

Am I the only one what can't see driftwood's pictures? 

 

 

I'm new to this.  What kinda conversion is this?  I thought kirsts had a ring on the back and the other kind didn't have ejector rods because you have to remove the cylinder. 

 

 those are 1872 colt open tops. they were the predecessor to the 73 and build just for cartridge ammo, not converted cap guns

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

3 hours ago, Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 said:

 

By the way, some folks can't understand the logic of buying a C&B revolver and then adding the cost of a conversion cylinder. Why not just buy a cartridge gun they ask. Well, I bought this Remmie over 40 years ago, and don't really remember what I paid for it. What ever I paid, the cost was amortized so long ago that buying a conversion cylinder for just over $200 was like buying a new cartridge gun.

 

 

Here is something you really don't see very often.

 

This is a very recent acquisition. An original 1858 Remington converted to shoot 32-20. 

 

 

 

 

There is another reason to go the Conversion route.  

 

As Driftwood lives in Massachusetts like me, he knows what it is when it comes to getting a new revolver.   And that's all I'll say about that.

 

As far as that .32-20 Remington goes....

DAMN!   Where the heck did you find it?   I've wanted one of those ever since I saw them in Taylor's catalogue years ago and bemoaned the fact that I can not buy one.  (Never mind that it may very well be that they were never actually produced)   And yours in a real Remington!     You've stolen another one from me.   At least I didn't know about this one in advance.

 

As far as it being to heavy to cock goes, that little screw on the front of the grip can be adjusted to make the hammer heavier or lighter depending on which way you turn it.    (The Colt has one too, but it's on the inside of the handle and you have to take the grips off to get to it.)   I've found that on some revolvers you can change how heavy the hammer is just a little, or quite a lot.   Give it a try.

 

And if you ever want to part with that .32-20, it would go very well with my 1st Gen Colt from 1887 and my Colt Lighting from 1891 all in the same caliber...

[Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474]

3 hours ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

.....................
I'm new to this.  What kinda conversion is this?  I thought kirsts had a ring on the back and the other kind didn't have ejector rods because you have to remove the cylinder. 

 

 

That Pard is a copy of one of the original conversions, using 1851  C&B frames etc. to take advantage of the recently expired S&W patent, before the 1873 Colt was introduced.

I think they're kinda elegant.

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

20 hours ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

Am I the only one what can't see driftwood's pictures? 

 

 

I'm new to this.  What kinda conversion is this?  I thought kirsts had a ring on the back and the other kind didn't have ejector rods because you have to remove the cylinder. 

 

Commonly refereed to as open tops, or 71/72 open tops, or sometimes just 1871 or 1872. They are the only cowboy pistols that I know of where the rear sight is on the barrel instead of the hammer or frame. 

 

[Jacobite Jack]

 

Hear is one of the guns promised.  They are still in the white ready for the engraver.  

 

There are fewer than 60 known species of the original LCC conversions most notably from Mexican artisans produced from parts from the Colt factory after the civil war.  It is said that Colt made a few LCC prototypes before the expiration of The R&W bore thru cylinder patent had expired, but the Mexicans never worried much about patent infringement.  These prototypes were never released to the public.  It could be said that the LCC was the direct predecessor to the open tops.

[Crooked River Pete, SASS 43485]

I made this conversion many years ago, couldn't buy one then, mid to late 90's. Made my own cylinder, backing plate and converted the hammer to a pin. Sleeved the barrel to .38 spl, and dovetail front sight, made my own sight also. About the time I finished it the manufactured ones started showing up.

The first time I shot it I did not have the barrel sleeved yet. Shooting .38's thru a .44 barrel I only missed one target each stage.

[Tyrel Cody]

I'm strongly considering some fancy walnut grips.

 

[Boomstick Bruce]

On 7/4/2018 at 5:41 PM, Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

This puppy is ready to shoot. The only thing that is stopping me is the hammer takes two men and a boy to cock. I need to see if I can replace the spring with one out of a modern Italian replica. I won't mind grinding down a replacement spring, but I would hate to ruin an original.

Try a Wolff spring #32280 for a SAA. I have them in my 58's and it made a world of difference!!!

[Ramblin Gambler]

I can see driftwood's pictures now.  I'm guessing they were being blocked by a firewall at my previous location. 

 

You guys are really giving me a bug.  Does anyone have a fluted howell / taylor type conversion on a 58?  I can't even find a good picture of it on the web.  I wanna see a gun wearing one to see if it looks good enough to be worth the extra money. 

 

Does anyone know if taylors will still do that free custom fitting?  Do they even need to?  I noticed when I was perusing the offerings that they had different cylinders according to the maker of your revolver. 

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

2 hours ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

Does anyone have a fluted howell / taylor type conversion on a 58?

 

I was not impressed. The flutes were cut with a ball end endmill, rather than the traditional way of doing it with a shaped cutter. Look at any Colt or replica sometime, the flutes are not perfectly round in profile.

 

 

2 hours ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

Does anyone know if taylors will still do that free custom fitting?  Do they even need to?  I noticed when I was perusing the offerings that they had different cylinders according to the maker of your revolver. 

 

Why not call them and ask? When fitting a cylinder to my old EuroArms Remmie, I seem to remember Tom (the gunsmith) said he used a Pietta cylinder. As to whether or not it is needed to fit them, I was using a revolver that had not been made for a long time, so I was unsure what cylinder to buy. That's why I sent it to them. The cylinder should drop right in, but it is actually a pretty tall order to get a cylinder to drop into a revolver without any fitting. Given the manufacturing tolerances of the revolver. It might drop right in without any fitting, it might not.

[Long Johns Wolf]

Jacobite Jack & campfire; they came our beautifully, your Centaure Long Cylinder conversions. My congrats.

Good luck with them at tomorrow's CAS match.

But their real test will be at the Annual Match of the 9th Meeting of the FROCS July 14/15, 2018.

Prior to the MoF match they will be the highlight of the Centaure exhibition at the Karl-May-Museum, Radebeul.

Long Johns Wolf

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

7 hours ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

Does anyone know if taylors will still do that free custom fitting?  Do they even need to?  I noticed when I was perusing the offerings that they had different cylinders according to the maker of your revolver. 

 

When I sent them my Second Generation Colt Dragoon, they said they would check to see if one of their stock cylinders would fit.   If it would not, they would offer to make me a custom cylinder.    The custom made cylinder would have cost me something like $50 more than a "regular" one.  The regular one would include any minor fitting that was needed.

 

An Uberti cylinder fit just fine.

 

 

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

I guess they don't do it for free anymore.

 

It sure was great while it lasted.

 

$50 isn't much to spend to get a cylinder custom, fit.

[Yul Lose]

Here are my ROA’s with R&D style conversion cylinders.