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TO/RO blamed for a shooter breaking 170


Phantom, SASS #54973

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Has anyone been blamed for a shooter sweeping folks with a loaded firearm?

 

What happened:

Shooter starts with hand(s) on gun(s). Shooter is using a x-draw and has their hand on that pistol. The shooter would sweep folks if they don't move their hips/leg/etc before pulling that pistol. TO/RO starts the shooter, shooter does NOT move so that they wouldn't sweep folks.

 

Technically, MDQ.

 

Call was nullified because a club officer said that the TO/RO and/or spotters "Should have known that the shooter was going to break the 170.

 

In nearly 15 years of shooting and running a timer since China Camp deemed me experienced enough to do so back in 2006, I've never experienced this happening...has anyone experienced this happening???

 

Phantom

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NEVER!

Seen the opposite, though...T/O tried to MDQ a shooter for "sweeping" a spotter who had stepped into the shooter's 170 during stage engagement.

That one WAS overturned.

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13 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Has anyone been blamed for a shooter sweeping folks with a loaded firearm?

 

What happened:

Shooter starts with hand(s) on gun(s). Shooter is using a x-draw and has their hand on that pistol. The shooter would sweep folks if they don't move their hips/leg/etc before pulling that pistol. TO/RO starts the shooter, shooter does NOT move so that they wouldn't sweep folks.

 

Technically, MDQ.

 

Call was nullified because a club officer said that the TO/RO and/or spotters "Should have known that the shooter was going to break the 170.

 

In nearly 15 years of shooting and running a timer since China Camp deemed me experienced enough to do so back in 2006, I've never experienced this happening...has anyone experienced this happening???

 

Phantom

If the TO and the spotters should have known that the shooter was going to break the 170, then someone should have asked the shooter to change his stance before he ever drew a gun! There is no excuse whatsoever for anyone breaking the 170. That club official was wrong IMHO.

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We don't make a call on a shooter on either intent or "TO failing to prevent what MIGHT happen."  If the cross draw sweeps anyone else, then call the MDQ ON THE SHOOTER.. 

 

If a TO suspects a cross-drawing shooter will be sloppy, a TO should be speaking to shooter as a reminder of what to do to prevent a swept posse member.  But, there's no penalty if the TO does not do so.

 

Don't make up rules, and don't require TO to be a mind reader - or we'll soon have no TOs.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

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44 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

"Should have known that the shooter was going to break the 170."

 

...forgot to mention that's the most STOOPID reason for nullifying a call I've ever heard.

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OY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!   you know I just had to say that!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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It was the first stage of the day...had no idea what the shooter was going to do but certainly the shooter easily could have move his hip or stance once the timer went off.

 

I was surprised...to say the least...that someone could fault the TO/RO.

 

But...the shooter did get a little lesson after the stage. Why someone would blame the TO/RO and spotters is baffling.

 

Phantom

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I don't even understand the logic chain that would lead to that conclusion. 

And I pride myself on usually being able to see both sides of an argument.

 

The shooter is 100% responsible and accountable for their actions.

 

And MANY shooters turn their bodies or reposition themselves AFTER the beep.  The TO has limited ability to predict a shooters actions.  

Especially an unknown shooter/ TO pairing on the first stage of the day.

 

Unless the shooter is ALREADY doing something or unsafe prior to the beep -  my job as TO is to simply allow them to make themselves ready, wait for their announcement of ready and start the clock.  

I have to assume; especially if it is an experienced shooter that they plan to adjust positions after the beep.

If there are unsafe situations or circumstances created after the beep; we will address, correct and apply penalty after.

 

Shooter owns the stage and it is not the TO's job to question their positioning or staging prior to the beep.

 

And the TO certainly does not carry any fault for the shooters error.

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4 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Shooter owns the stage and it is not the TO's job to question their positioning or staging prior to the beep.

And the TO certainly does not carry any fault for the shooters error.

 

I've RO'd for a lot of Cross-Draw shooters.  I've been one.  The only time I've ever delayed the shooter and given them some tips was with new shooters who have the cross draw holster all the way around the side, pointed backwards.  Gave an impromptu lesson to a fellow at his first match last month, repositioned his holsters and "bladed" him downrange.  But no, everyone gets a penalty if they break the rules.  The onus is not on the RO.  It is not even a "faulted" position.  regardless... Oy! 

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15 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

 

 

And the TO certainly does not carry any fault for the shooters error.

 

I regularly blame you for any mistakes I make when I’m shooting with you 

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If the 170 was strictly enforced at every match, the posse would end up mighty small. When spotting (and granted, I am usually near the line to one side), there isn't a match that goes by that I don't look down the barrels of a shotgun on stages with movement of the shotgun from one window to another (or door, or whatever). Rifles not so much. Crossdraws pretty often break the 170. This still does not excuse the shooter in the OP who made no attempt to swivel the hips whatsoever. Nor does it excuse the person making the call.

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14 hours ago, Painted Mohawk SASS 77785 said:

Safety is the shooters responsibility & the  TO/RO   enforces it. For the XDraw that is exactly why I stand  sideways.

Yep... me too. 

 

SB

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I too stand sideways for my first pistol which is cross draw.  As I sometimes suffer from Half-heimezers:D (only forget half of things instead of all things) or Senior Moments, since I always draw this pistol first, I always know which pistol to draw next especially when the stage has pistols not shot consecutively at the same location.   

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15 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Why someone would blame the TO/RO and spotters is baffling.

 

Might be because the match officials didn't want to follow the rules and give a MDQ to that particular shooter....... :rolleyes:

Which then endangers all the posse members should a negligent discharge occur, as well as being illegal under the rules (to not call the infraction when it is recognized).   A standard practice, for a penalty this serious, is to ask for a confirmation from any of the other stage officials who were in a position to see.

 

This is a good reason to always have at least one spotter standing on the shooter's WEAK side, to observe how shooter draws and holsters the weak side revolver!

 

Good luck, GJ

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23 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

Might be because the match officials didn't want to follow the rules and give a MDQ to that particular shooter....... :rolleyes:

Which then endangers all the posse members should a negligent discharge occur, as well as being illegal under the rules (to not call the infraction when it is recognized).   A standard practice, for a penalty this serious, is to ask for a confirmation from any of the other stage officials who were in a position to see.

 

This is a good reason to always have at least one spotter standing on the shooter's WEAK side, to observe how shooter draws and holsters the weak side revolver!

 

Good luck, GJ

Okay...I should have said that the TO/RO and one of the spotters were blamed as both of us should have known that the shooter was going to sweep folks with his loaded pistol.

 

Yep, believe it or not, both of us were blamed. Just thought that I would try and make the post a bit less cluttered with other crazy facts that happened on this day/stage. :o

 

But the good news is that this officer is a Regulator...so...:ph34r:

 

Phantom

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Quote

TO/RO and one of the spotters were blamed

 

Commonly called "shooting the bearer of bad news"

:lol:

Not an honorable approach to the situation.

 

Good luck, GJ

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1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Okay...I should have said that the TO/RO and one of the spotters were blamed

 

Phantom

Hmmm, did you both receive the MDQ penalty since you caused it:huh:.

This sorta stuff  reminds me of what  an elephant and a plumb have in common.......they are both purple except for the elephant:ph34r:

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21 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

I don't even understand the logic chain that would lead to that conclusion. 

And I pride myself on usually being able to see both sides of an argument.

 

The shooter is 100% responsible and accountable for their actions.

 

And MANY shooters turn their bodies or reposition themselves AFTER the beep.  The TO has limited ability to predict a shooters actions.  

Especially an unknown shooter/ TO pairing on the first stage of the day.

 

Unless the shooter is ALREADY doing something or unsafe prior to the beep -  my job as TO is to simply allow them to make themselves ready, wait for their announcement of ready and start the clock.  

I have to assume; especially if it is an experienced shooter that they plan to adjust positions after the beep.

If there are unsafe situations or circumstances created after the beep; we will address, correct and apply penalty after.

 

Shooter owns the stage and it is not the TO's job to question their positioning or staging prior to the beep.

 

And the TO certainly does not carry any fault for the shooters error.

See! I can agree with Creeker!

 

I have to ask....... When was the last time the Match Director took an RO refresher course?

 

 

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17 hours ago, Lead Monger said:

I'm really having a hard time figuring out how the TO and a spotter could cause the shooter to break the 170. 

You should be ashamed of yourself!:lol::lol:

 

Obviously the shooter started with the weak side leg forward.  But that TO and spotter made him put the strong side leg forward against his will.  Hell even that doesn't make sense. 

 

I'm waiting to hear how they split the MDQ up amongst the real guilty parties.  Woulda been funny if the 2 of you had insisted on taking a SDQ each because daggum it, a rule was broken and punishment must be meted out. 

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57 minutes ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

 

Obviously the shooter started with the weak side leg forward.  But that TO and spotter made him put the strong side leg forward against his will.  Hell even that doesn't make sense. 

 

I'm waiting to hear how they split the MDQ up amongst the real guilty parties.  Woulda been funny if the 2 of you had insisted on taking a SDQ each because daggum it, a rule was broken and punishment must be meted out. 

Both of us were executed via roo-roo...

 

:o

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On 6/29/2018 at 9:34 AM, Lorelei Longshot, SASS #44256 Life said:

I too stand sideways for my first pistol which is cross draw.  As I sometimes suffer from Half-heimezers:D (only forget half of things instead of all things) or Senior Moments, since I always draw this pistol first, I always know which pistol to draw next especially when the stage has pistols not shot consecutively at the same location.   

+ 1000000000000000000

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Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362

This is a six of one ,half a dozen of another. The SHOOTER is responsible for his actions ,but, if the TO/RO  knew he was in a position that would sweep a person if he did not twist and the TO/RO is to safely guide the shooter through the stage he could have warned the shooter of the potential  sweeping penalty.  Still the shooter deserves the MDQ.

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On 6/29/2018 at 6:16 PM, Ace_of_Hearts said:

See! I can agree with Creeker!

 

I have to ask....... When was the last time the Match Director took an RO refresher course?

 

 

The question should be does the MD have any common sense, and the MD  should take a RO class before they act as a MD again. I hope this Is not a situation for BOD for the shooter!!

 

Nawlins

 

 

 

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More and more, I see X-draw shooters getting away with not adjusting their turn so that they don’t break the 170. Seeing it more and more, especially when they holster; no attempt at all to make a slight turn. I believe folks are afraid to call it on their friends or fast shooters. Plus - if a x-draw shooter doesn’t call it on another x-draw shooter, that other shooter is less likely to call it on another.

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On 6/30/2018 at 6:28 PM, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Both of us were executed via roo-roo...

 

:o

 

OUCH - Ohhhh!- UNGHH- Mmmmm! (<< Wrong execution method, This refers to death by Snu-Snu):blush:

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17 minutes ago, Shamrock Sadie said:

More and more, I see X-draw shooters getting away with not adjusting their turn so that they don’t break the 170. Seeing it more and more, especially when they holster; no attempt at all to make a slight turn. I believe folks are afraid to call it on their friends or fast shooters. Plus - if a x-draw shooter doesn’t call it on another x-draw shooter, that other shooter is less likely to call it on another.

 

I'm also seeing more and more crossdraw shooters starting in a turned position

not requiring them to turn/reposition... That's a smart move on their part..

 

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3 hours ago, Rance - SASS # 54090 said:

 

I'm also seeing more and more crossdraw shooters starting in a turned position

not requiring them to turn/reposition... That's a smart move on their part..

 

That’s a good way to start, but when moving from a long gun to a x-draw, the move isn’t happening (more so when holstering).

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