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Lee vs Dillon

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9 hours ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

For example, a new guy says he is on a  really short budget and wants to start loading.  Do you just tell him to buy the Dillon and cry once or do you offer any alternatives to give him a choice to fit his needs instead of yours?

 

In that specific example no, I'd definitely suggest a single stage.  It's my firm opinion a person should load a few thousand rounds on a single stage in order to learn the overall reloading process before moving on to a progressive press.

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10 hours ago, Bart Solo said:

Question is it possible to set up a reloading stand in a small space, and is it possible to clean brass in an equally confined space?  Has anybody done it?  (I am pretty sure a lot of shooters who ride the annual and above circuit do it in RVs. )  How have you all saved space and dealt with the noise?   How do you mount your press?  Is it portable. and concealable when not in  uses.  Remember reloading is not something my wife has any interest in me doing in the living room or kitchen. 

 

It's entirely possible.  I did it when I first started reloading.  I mounted my press to a 2X6 and then C-Clamped that to a small table.  Unclamp and stow when not in use.  But understand, that was with a single stage press.  I think that MIGHT work with a Square Deal B, but I doubt that would work with a 550 or 650.  Also have to ensure your table is sturdy enough.

 

As far as cleaning is concerned, I'd suggest a Frankfort Arsenal tumbler set up.  Small foot print when in use and easy to store when not in use.

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:ph34r:  I have a 550 and a 650, (and a PW 12 ga w/case feeder) each mounted on 5/8" plywood with I/16" metal plate under press itself.  Store in my warehouse when not in use.  C-clamp to fold-away Shopmate (?) portable carpenters metal table for action.  Works great.  2 50 lb. dumb bells on lower table shelf help stabilize.  Also mount RCBS Rock Chucker when needed.  Versatile.  No space to have all mounted and active at same time.

Creativity is your friend....

 

Good luck on your project..

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3 hours ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

In that specific example no, I'd definitely suggest a single stage.  It's my firm opinion a person should load a few thousand rounds on a single stage in order to learn the overall reloading process before moving on to a progressive press.

One of the greatest things about the Lee turret press is that it can be used as a single stage press until the operator is ready to take it up a notch.

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2 hours ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

One of the greatest things about the Lee turret press is that it can be used as a single stage press until the operator is ready to take it up a notch.

 

That's EXACTLY how I started reloading.  Still have that Lee turret press and still use it as a single stage for small batches of calibers I don't load in mass quantities.

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2 hours ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

That's EXACTLY how I started reloading.  Still have that Lee turret press and still use it as a single stage for small batches of calibers I don't load in mass quantities.

Exactly indeed !  :)

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I'm still trying to figure out the logic behind the argument that a single stage press is the way to start because of the simplicity. 

 

It may be slower, but it isn't less complicated.

 

Please enlighten me.

 

:D

 

Phantom

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2 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I'm still trying to figure out the logic behind the argument that a single stage press is the way to start because of the simplicity. 

 

It may be slower, but it isn't less complicated.

 

Please enlighten me.

 

:D

 

Phantom

Well - only one thing going on at a time means only one thing to watch & verify. There is no way to watch 4, 5 or 6 operations at once. At least I can't. :)

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8 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I'm still trying to figure out the logic behind the argument that a single stage press is the way to start because of the simplicity. 

 

It may be slower, but it isn't less complicated.

 

Please enlighten me.

 

:D

 

Phantom

 

Yusta B already gave my primary answer. I'll be eternally grateful that I learned about all the different kinds of hiccups that can happen and where in the loading process they happen before moving on to a progressive.  Has saved me tons of troubleshooting time.

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If one can transition from 2-handguns, to a rifle and then to a shotgun on the same stage.B)

Loading on a progressive press, is less mental effort..........;)

OLG

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41 minutes ago, Yusta B. said:

Well - only one thing going on at a time means only one thing to watch & verify. There is no way to watch 4, 5 or 6 operations at once. At least I can't. :)

A progress isn't any different. You set up one die station at a time. Once they are set, they are set. 

 

So if it's just watching...well...what are you looking for? 

 

Still willing to learn about this belief.

 

Phantom

 

 

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Reloading to a lot of folks can be quite intimidating so I generally recommend starting on a turret press of any color.  The novice gets to follow the process from start to finish with only a couple of things happening at any one time. 

 

After several hundred or a few thousand rounds, the novice will/should understand the process fairly well.  At that point, the novice may have an idea of where he wants to go with his reloading adventure.  The turret may be more than satisfactory or if he is loading for a family, he may want to go to a progressive. 

 

I don't recommend jumping straight into a progressive unless the novice has been tutored by a veteran reloader and has run a progressive successfully during that instruction.  Yes, there are those guys who can set up a press and go to work without ever touching a press before but it only takes one mistake to ruin your day.

 

My progressive is finicky on brass.  I have to watch as the case slides into the shell plate and is in place as I feel the primer seat.  On the down stroke, I have added the bullet, am watching to ensure the powder measure is operating, keeping an eye on the powder check, and making sure the bullet hasn't turned.  The upstroke I watch to see that the shell plate is turning, watch to make sure the loaded  round drops off, and do a visual on the powder level (full case of bp) before adding the slug then start the whole process over again as the next case is fed.  This is a lot of stuff for a novice to grasp all at once.

 

I am very particular with my reloading so I don't just crank the handle mindlessly and assume everything is ok all the time.  That anal retentiveness insures me that I will rarely have an ammunition failure.  It also helps me to see when the press hiccups to clear the problem(s) before the round gets to the loaded bin.  YMMV

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I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed...but I had no problems starting off with an Auto-indexing Progressive press...and for the most part, all my friends did too.

 

I'm just not buying it. Particularly if reloading straight wall pistol caliber rounds.

 

Cheers!!

 

Phantom

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22 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

A progress isn't any different. You set up one die station at a time. Once they are set, they are set. 

 

So if it's just watching...well...what are you looking for? 

 

Still willing to learn about this belief.

 

Phantom

 

 

Also you can run one piece of brass at a time if you want to see one complete bullet being made,  I started with Dillon 650  set it up using video, never looked back , thats been 10 years no squibs ( knock on wood I don't jinx it) and no major problems, my best advice is if something goes wrong don't force it you have to figure out what it is

 

I'm with Phantom on the single stage thing, it's not going to help you run a progressive machine, a few folks advise buying the Lyman Manual, usually  I was lucky enough to borrow one because to me it would of been a waste of money for making cowboy loads. I think anybody loading should have access to a Chronograph though.

 

I 've only used a Dillon 650 for metallic , seen no reason to try anything else, I load about 300rds in 30 minutes. 

 

AO

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8 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

 

 

I'm just not buying it. Particularly if reloading straight wall pistol caliber rounds.

 

Cheers!!

 

Phantom

 

Somehow I didn't think you would :)

 

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3 minutes ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

 

Somehow I didn't think you would :)

 

Not sure if this is a dig or not...

 

Just don't get the argument. I've heard it stated over and over again, but with no real clear reason for the position. 

 

I don't care if folks believe this position or not...really I don't. But when folks that are thinking about getting into reloading hear this, it would be nice to have some actual reasons why it's simpler and better to start with a Single Stage Press. 

 

Phantom

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For those mechanically challenged folks... a progressive is NOT the place to learn... At the price of a progressive vs. a single stage... it might be a VERY expensive lesson that you SHOULD NOT ATTEMPT RELOADING.   If your shoelaces keep coming untied... and overcoming this challenge is the pinnacle of your achievements... don't start with a progressive reloading press.

 

Does that explain it to your satisfaction, Phantom?

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7 minutes ago, Griff said:

For those mechanically challenged folks... a progressive is NOT the place to learn... At the price of a progressive vs. a single stage... it might be a VERY expensive lesson that you SHOULD NOT ATTEMPT RELOADING.   If your shoelaces keep coming untied... and overcoming this challenge is the pinnacle of your achievements... don't start with a progressive reloading press.

 

Does that explain it to your satisfaction, Phantom?

Sorry Griff...I'm not persuaded by your argument.

 

Nice try though :D

 

Single stage presses can be more prone to making errors for those with poor organizational skills...so...perhaps only those that have poor mechanical abilities but a high level of organizational skills should buy a Single Stage press????

 

Hmmmm....

 

Phantom

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I'm with the Phantom and others...... buy a Dillon 550 or 650 and never look back.

 

You have less chance of a screw up on a 650 as once everything is set , you place the bullet, you pull the handle

and miraculously a loaded round appears!!

the 550 is REALLY hard ...you place an empty case, you set a  bullet in place then you press the handle

whoooo   got confused just thinking about it........

 

 Anybody who needs to learn on, or thinks a single stage is best........ well check the weather snowflake:D

 

 a single stage is a waste of funds best spent on a Dillon progressive.:FlagAm:

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I lack in organizational skills and am not very mechanically inclined. But I can read, and watch videos. 

 

My first press res was a Loadmaster. I got it set up, loaded probably 25-30 rounds one at a time. Then 2 at a time, then 3, then 4 then all 5. Took my time, went slow, did not have tv on, talk on the phone, or any other distractions. After 100-200 rounds was able to pick up the pace. Used to take me over an hour to load 50. I weighed and measured about every 5th case. I remember when I loaded 100 rounds in about 1/2 hour. I was pretty excited!

 

long story short. Don’t be afraid to start with s progressive. Just go slow, pay attention. 

 

I did pick up a Turret press , and a single stage, both gave their place, but for loading lots of pistol ammo, hard to beat the progressive.  I’ve since upgraded to a Dillon 650, but the Loadmaster is a good press. Only reason I wanted a Dillon was to have a powder check die. Hard but not impossible with a LM, and not really needed. The only squib loads I had were my own fault. 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Not sure if this is a dig or not...

 

Nope, not a dig, your reply was an expected response based on your MO of not agreeing with anyone that has a view other than yours.

 

Just don't get the argument. I've heard it stated over and over again, but with no real clear reason for the position. 

That's because you won't listen to the argument and reasoning behind it since you have already cemented your position.

1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

I don't care if folks believe this position or not...really I don't. But when folks that are thinking about getting into reloading hear this, it would be nice to have some actual reasons why it's simpler and better to start with a Single Stage Press. 

 

Phantom

So if you don't care, why do you post anything?  How about you explain why a first time reloader should start with a progressive?  You are a bright, articulate guy.  Convince me I'm wrong.

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Actually, it was explained to me thusly:  It is simply cheaper to delve into reloading with a single stage.  And... if you find you really like it, (not becoming a "chore").  You can always move to a progressive for more production.  Your trusty single stage will still have uses... some cartridges lend themselves more readily to single stage production.

 

When I started reloading... there were no progressive presses except for vastly expensive commercial machines.  Gore had yet to invent the internet, in fact, the only instruction I found were in reloading manuals... all geared to the hobbyist reloader.  I'd been reloading for about 15 years before I decided a progressive would fit my goals better than the single stage I'd been using.  If I was to be just beginning reloading... what my goals were in reloading would rule any decision I made.  Certainly not what other's goals were.

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16 minutes ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

That's because you won't listen to the argument and reasoning behind it since you have already cemented your position.

So if you don't care, why do you post anything?  How about you explain why a first time reloader should start with a progressive?  You are a bright, articulate guy.  Convince me I'm wrong.

Notice that I said I don't care if you have the position that you do. I do care that folks with an opinion and a forum to express their opinion at least have some reasonable argument supporting that position so that folks that are influenced aren't lead down a Wive's Tale path.

 

You can use a progressive like a single stage in that you can manufacture one round at a time. There are no changing of dies...no moving of rounds from one side or the press to the other YADAYADAYADA.

 

Both require that the reloader pay attention. One CAN go fast, but can go slow if needed. The other goes slow...and if you try and speed it up to a snails pace, you can really screw up.

 

Phantom

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25 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Notice that I said I don't care if you have the position that you do. I do care that folks with an opinion and a forum to express their opinion at least have some reasonable argument supporting that position so that folks that are influenced aren't lead down a Wive's Tale path.

 

You can use a progressive like a single stage in that you can manufacture one round at a time. There are no changing of dies...no moving of rounds from one side or the press to the other YADAYADAYADA.

 

Both require that the reloader pay attention. One CAN go fast, but can go slow if needed. The other goes slow...and if you try and speed it up to a snails pace, you can really screw up.

 

Phantom

So it's ok for you to discount my opinion simply as you don't care.  If my opinion was off base, you should care that I'm relaying false information.  I provided you with simple enough reasoning i.e. budget, ability, goals.

 

I stated that I recommend a turret press for a beginner, not a single stage as you infer.  I did state it can be used as a single stage for those folks who want to.  The turret press has the dies locked into the turret and do not normally require adjustment, much the same as a progressive.  There is no switching of cases as in a single stage.  You start a case and follow it through until completion, usually 3-4 pulls of the handle.  A self indexing turret is what I use as it limits possible mistakes and improves production.  I can run about 200 rds/ hr on the machine.

 

The turret press is a bit slow compared to a full self indexing progressive but for a lone shooter, 1 hour of work equals one monthly, 2 hours is an annual.  The setup costs around $130 plus the cost of a scale.

 

Going from 50 to 100 to 200 rds per hour on a turret press does not automatically induce mistakes as you imply.  Have you used a turret press to base that statement on personal experience?  My statements are based on 46 years of experience.  That experience has also taught me that speeding on the progressive can be more costly than the turret.  Have you ever rolled a primer and blown the primer tube?  Long story short, I felt it but was running fast and smooth and didn't get stopped in time.  

 

Again, convince me I'm wrong in my recommendations.  I don't buy the I don't care answer.

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1 hour ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

That's because you won't listen to the argument and reasoning behind it since you have already cemented your position.

So if you don't care, why do you post anything?  How about you explain why a first time reloader should start with a progressive?  You are a bright, articulate guy.  Convince me I'm wrong.

I never loaded on single stage for metallic started with a Dillon 650 with a case feeder, and I know many people who also have as well, my 650 will make one bullet at a time so you can see how each station works the directions that come with the machine walk you thru process plus countless YouTube videos. What's really neat is once you see how it works  ( few minutes) you can really crank out some rds. Someone who bought the single stage 1st after seeing how it works now has to order a progressive , what did they gain ?  Spending extra money ? 

 

To to me it would be like saying you need to start shooting with a single shot pistol because a revolver is too complicated 

 

Good luck 

AO 

 

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2 hours ago, Arcadia Outlaw SASS#71385 said:

I never loaded on single stage for metallic started with a Dillon 650 with a case feeder, and I know many people who also have as well, my 650 will make one bullet at a time so you can see how each station works the directions that come with the machine walk you thru process plus countless YouTube videos. What's really neat is once you see how it works  ( few minutes) you can really crank out some rds. Someone who bought the single stage 1st after seeing how it works now has to order a progressive , what did they gain ?  Spending extra money ? 

 

To to me it would be like saying you need to start shooting with a single shot pistol because a revolver is too complicated 

 

Good luck 

AO 

 

So you've never used anything else besides a 650 and feel entitled to discount other products and talk like you are an expert because you watched a YouTube video?  I'm sorry, that doesn't wash with me.

 

What do folks gain in using a single stage or a turret press?  Confidence  in their loading technique is the first thing that comes to mind.  Not everyone has 1K to drop on a fully outfitted XL650.  Lots of SASS shooter's are on fixed incomes so have to use more inexpensive products to be able to enjoy the game.  Does that make them somehow less able to enjoy the game?

 

I still use my old Rock Chucker for swaging and pulling big bore bullets occasionally.  I still use the turret press.  Just yesterday I ran over 1K pieces of brass through it.  I still have a Lee Load All II for 16ga.  Did I just waste money.  Unequivocally no.  I still have a need for these tools and by far, the progressive is the least utilized.

 

As stated earlier, I load 23 different calibers, mostly small runs, so spending $1700 on caliber conversions makes no sense when a turret is $12.  

 

What I am trying to get across is this.  There are a lot of options for reloading equipment that can meet different needs and budgets.  Some are without question better than others but the others also fill a need.  We as veterans should offer up alternatives for new folks to consider rather than say "You have to have xyz to get the job done".  That could be a deal breaker for some folks.

 

Comparing single shots to sixguns?  Really?  Most shooter's I have encountered while teaching (21 years as a LEO Rangemaster) started out with dry fire then single shot strings then slow continuous fire.  Hmmm let's think about this.

 

Single shot=single stage

Revolvers=turret press

Semi-Auto=progressive

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8 hours ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

So it's ok for you to discount my opinion simply as you don't care.  If my opinion was off base, you should care that I'm relaying false information.  I provided you with simple enough reasoning i.e. budget, ability, goals.

 

I stated that I recommend a turret press for a beginner, not a single stage as you infer.  I did state it can be used as a single stage for those folks who want to.  The turret press has the dies locked into the turret and do not normally require adjustment, much the same as a progressive.  There is no switching of cases as in a single stage.  You start a case and follow it through until completion, usually 3-4 pulls of the handle.  A self indexing turret is what I use as it limits possible mistakes and improves production.  I can run about 200 rds/ hr on the machine.

 

The turret press is a bit slow compared to a full self indexing progressive but for a lone shooter, 1 hour of work equals one monthly, 2 hours is an annual.  The setup costs around $130 plus the cost of a scale.

 

Going from 50 to 100 to 200 rds per hour on a turret press does not automatically induce mistakes as you imply.  Have you used a turret press to base that statement on personal experience?  My statements are based on 46 years of experience.  That experience has also taught me that speeding on the progressive can be more costly than the turret.  Have you ever rolled a primer and blown the primer tube?  Long story short, I felt it but was running fast and smooth and didn't get stopped in time.  

 

Again, convince me I'm wrong in my recommendations.  I don't buy the I don't care answer.

Wow...

 

Are you saying that because I don't accept the position that a SS or Turret press is easier to learn on that I'm "Discounting" you position? Where do you get the notion that I'm saying that your information is false???? I'm saying that you're position MAY BE WRONG. Key word here is MAYBE. So far, all I have on your side of the argument is that a SS/Turret press is cheaper. Well duh...but how is it better to learn on??? THAT is the question that I would love answered.

 

Perhaps you need to go back and re-read my position and argument. My initial inquiry was into the statement that a SS press is better to learn on. THAT is what is/was being addressed!

 

Then you get into a bunch of tangents that I'm baffled by.  No one is questioning your experience...why you feel the need to attack others on that basis is odd.

 

Phantom

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And that's all we have time for folks. Tune in next month for another addition of  "Why Dillon is the bestest and only press you should ever own."

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Well we all have our opinions on the best way and best press to learn on. Just maybe there isn't one correct answer? Just maybe it comes down to the individual or who that individual is getting help from?

 

I started with a Four Hole Lee Turret and still use it for many calibers. Turret presses for someone on a budget are a great way to go or just seeing if reloading is for them.

 

My 650 is awesome and there's no way I'd go back full time to the Lee.

 

That said the basic function of all presses is the same. On a SS, turret or progressive press the dies need to be adjusted, primers seated, charge needs to be correct and checked, COL checked and so on.

 

Guess what? They all produce loaded rounds :)

 

Tully

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I’ve never owned a single stage press. I started with a Lee Pro 1000. Hated it. Moved to an XL650. Love it. Bought another one and then inherited an old Hornady Pro-Jector. Starting on a progressive is not a big deal. The only limiting factor is the cost. I don’t want to hear about intimimidating. We play with guns in close proximity to each other and shoot often convoluted scenarios as fast as we can. Running a simple progressive machine is not hard with proper focus which we should have anyway in the presence of powder and primers. And yes, run one case at a time to get the rhythm and then let her rip. And I ain’t that smart but anything can be learned with focus.

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I currently load on a Lee Pro 1000; for 15 years, I have loaded ammo for myself, my daughter, and now my lady friend on that press. 

I dont know, a couple 1000 rounds?

Do I wish I had a couple 650s on my bench?  Yes, of course. 

But cost has for years precluded that option.

 

But I am eternally grateful that when beginning, no one talked me into a single stage or turret press. 

I hate reloading. 

I detest the time it takes.

If I was forced to load on a non progressive press... 

I would have likely quit this game by now or had to resort to commercially reloaded ammo and shot a lot less.

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5 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Wow...

 

Are you saying that because I don't accept the position that a SS or Turret press is easier to learn on that I'm "Discounting" you position? Where do you get the notion that I'm saying that your information is false???? I'm saying that you're position MAY BE WRONG. Key word here is MAYBE. So far, all I have on your side of the argument is that a SS/Turret press is cheaper. Well duh...but how is it better to learn on??? THAT is the question that I would love answered.

 

Perhaps you need to go back and re-read my position and argument. My initial inquiry was into the statement that a SS press is better to learn on. THAT is what is/was being addressed!

 

Then you get into a bunch of tangents that I'm baffled by.  No one is questioning your experience...why you feel the need to attack others on that basis is odd.

 

Phantom

 

Phantom,

 

I'll ask again, have you used a single stage or turret press to base your opinions on?  If you haven't, please don't discount their value to the learning curve of new reloaders.  If they have no intrinsic value as a training aid, please convince me why.  My position is that you need to stand before you can walk and you must walk before you can run.  You claim my position may be wrong.  Justify your claim with factual information rather than just another opinion.

 

Believe it or not, there are folks in this SASS game that are less adept at learning/performing things than others.  Some do not have the ability to multitask at the start and need a more step by step oriented approach to the reloading process.  That's where the "other" presses come into play.  By performing one or two steps at a time, they are able to comprehend the process easier and are able to function in a safe manner until such time they can/want to step up to a progressive.

 

I do not wish my statements to come off as an attack on anyone and have explained my experience as a shooter, reloader, and trainer to validate my statements as coming from lessons learned from many years of hands on experience.  You and many others have started out with a progressive and are successful.  There are others who should not attempt to start out at that level.  Yes, a progressive can be used as a turret press.  I'll give you that but there will still be some that may/will be unable to make the jump to full progressive safely.

 

You can agree or disagree.  I do believe you are cemented in your opinion and are unwilling to consider other viable options.  That's your right and I respect that.  Have a great day.

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