WTC spent cap in nipple

[Rye Miles #13621]

At the Shootout at Hard Times this weekend a pard of ours, Cheatin' Charlie, called a SDQ on himself after going to the loading table and finding out he had a BROKEN piece of a fired cap still hanging on to the nipple. It wasn't the whole cap!

 

What say you??

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

Just for clarification, it was a small fragment of the cap, hidden underneath the nipple.

At the unloading table, when rotating the cylinder, the nipples looked empty & clear.

Charlie only found the fragment when he went to cap the cylinder at the loading table on the next stage, and couldn't get the cap on.

As he tried to figure out why, that's when he discovered the small fragment of the cap between the nipple and the cylinder wall.

I don't know if this extra information matters, but I thought I would put it in, just in case it does.

Thanks

--Dawg

[Griff]

He hasn't earned that alias.  Needs changed to something like Conscientious Charlie...  

 

Although the rule the simply specifies "caps"... there's no determination of percentage... I'd say that the ROIII book needs to be applied.  If there could be no mistaking that fragment for an unfired cap... no call.

[Rye Miles #13621]

14 minutes ago, Griff said:

He hasn't earned that alias.  Needs changed to something like Conscientious Charlie...  

 

Although the rule the simply specifies "caps"... there's no determination of percentage... I'd say that the ROIII book needs to be applied.  If there could be no mistaking that fragment for an unfired cap... no call.

We always kid Charlie about "cheatin'", but he's as honest as the day is long! I think he should have told the posse leader and got a verification but he didn't. 

[Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L]

no call

[Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362]

All I can say is What have we become.

[John Henry Quick]

Exactly what rule could have been broken by having a fragment of a fired, i.e., non-live, cap stuck between the nipple and cylinder wall?

[Hoss]

In my opinion, had he cleared guns at ULT and it was just a fragment, which can be hard to see (especially for those of us with Old eyes and wearing shooting glasses instead of regular glasses, it’s a no call. 

[Tucker McNeely]

I agree with no call.

[Rye Miles #13621]

29 minutes ago, John Henry Quick said:

Exactly what rule could have been broken by having a fragment of a fired, i.e., non-live, cap stuck between the nipple and cylinder wall?

Charlie equated it to the same thing as having a empty cartridge in a chamber.

[Clueless Bob]

 A cap fragment not covering the end of the nipple, in my book is a No Call.  The ULT officer is only taught to look at the end of the nipples to ensure clear.  Most folks who man the ULT have little to no experience with C&B revolvers and the shooters of these firearms are usually instructing the ULT officer on what to to for.  A fragment stuck to the side of a nipple is extremely difficult to see and will easily be missed.  As I said, NO CALL!!

[Griff]

48 minutes ago, John Henry Quick said:

Exactly what rule could have been broken by having a fragment of a fired, i.e., non-live, cap stuck between the nipple and cylinder wall?

Page 28 of the SHB, ver 22.3 states:

Quote

Percussion revolver shooters must exercise care to ensure they maintain safe
muzzle direction during loading and have fired or cleared all capped chambers
prior to leaving the unloading area. It is not permissible to seat percussion caps
on a revolver’s nipple using the revolver’s hammer. Percussion revolvers may
only be capped at the loading area or on the firing line.

Equivalent to a cartridge gun not having empties removed.

[Cheatin Charlie]

Finally had time to sit down and reply to this thread.  After the match I asked Lassiter about this question.  He referenced the above quote from the SHB.  Notice the or in the sentence.  All the caps were fired so it was a no call and SDQ was reversed.  I also thought as Griff did and that was why I called the penalty on myself. But I was wrong.  The "OR" part pertains to unfired caps.  I hope this clears things up.  If I am wrong Pale Wolf will let us know.

Like in all auto racing it is only cheating if you get caught! 

[Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362]

32 minutes ago, Griff said:

Page 28 of the SHB, ver 22.3 states:

Equivalent to a cartridge gun not having empties removed.

IMHO that has nothing to do with a tiny piece of brass caught in the nipple area ,that would be the same as saying a tiny piece of brass in a cartridge gun is a spent case. 

[Amarillo Rattler]

I’ve had several neck separations on 44-40 brass. Left the neck in the chamber which prevents the next round from clambering. Not fixable at the range.

 

Luckily, this happened only during practice.

If this happened during a match on the last round fired, it would not be detected at the ULT.

 

Should the separated neck be treated like the cap fragment?

 

Amarillo Rattler

 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

A small cap fragment is a NO CALL.  Happy are I the SDQ was reversed. Charlie is a stand up straight up guy.  

 

RATTLER:  YES 

[Griff]

14 minutes ago, Texas jack Black SASS#9362 said:

IMHO that has nothing to do with a tiny piece of brass caught in the nipple area ,that would be the same as saying a tiny piece of brass in a cartridge gun is a spent case. 

Did you not read my 1st post on this thread?  When one uses adjectives to describe a thing, they can be interpreted differently by various people... Your "tiny" might be very different than my "tiny".  Let's not be argumentative.  My comment you quoted was in answer to the specific question I quoted therein.  A "fragment" could describe ½, or even ¾ of a cap.  The rule doesn't require removal of "all evidence of caps," so a judicious application of uncommon good sense (ROIII Rule Book) should prevail.  I.e., Could the fragment remaining be mistaken for an unexpended cap by the uninitiated, (ULTO)?  If so, SDQ; if not, NO CALL.  THAT would be my call (and reasoning) as a Frontiersman, ULTO, TO, Match Director, or as a member of a Protest Committee, the Rules Committee Member, or the Wild Bunch.  (Perhaps, luckily, I'm not).  

8 minutes ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

A small cap fragment is a NO CALL.  Happy are I the SDQ was reversed. Charlie is a stand up straight up guy.  

 

RATTLER:  YES 

Agreed and Agreed.  The separated neck should be confused with unexpended ordnance... no call.

[Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L]

20 minutes ago, Griff said:

 . . . THAT would be my call (and reasoning) as a Frontiersman, ULTO, TO, Match Director, or as a member of a Protest Committee, the Rules Committee Member, or the Wild Bunch.  (Perhaps, luckily, I'm not).  

 

 

does WB deal with percussion caps??     

[Griff]

8 minutes ago, Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L said:

 

does WB deal with percussion caps??     

I trust you actually understood I was referring to a "who," not a "what"?  

[Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L]

yep, just a bit of humor (or at least an attempt at it)

[Three Foot Johnson]

2 hours ago, Amarillo Rattler said:

I’ve had several neck separations on 44-40 brass. Left the neck in the chamber which prevents the next round from clambering. Not fixable at the range.

 

Luckily, this happened only during practice.

If this happened during a match on the last round fired, it would not be detected at the ULT.

 

Should the separated neck be treated like the cap fragment?

 

Amarillo Rattler

 

The exact situation I was going to bring up. If you didn't notice one case was shorter than the rest at the unloading table, and discovered the separation at the loading table on the next stage, of course there would be no penalty.

[Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L]

3 hours ago, J Bar Binks, #47015 said:

The exact situation I was going to bring up. If you didn't notice one case was shorter than the rest at the unloading table, and discovered the separation at the loading table on the next stage, of course there would be no penalty.

 

I believe there is something wrong with the one on the left.  The top doesn't seem to be uniformly 'level' 

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

I almost did not read this post .

I Hate WTC Post .

But I am also a Cap Gun Shooter .

So it peeked my interest  .

I would say No Call .

IMHO .

Rooster 

[El Hombre]

No call

[Flying W Ramrod]

And for those who have had brass separation, there is a handy tool for use at the range.

Just drop it in action, close it and eject.

I've got one for .45, and .38.

Trying to remember which cowboy sells them.

 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

6 minutes ago, Flying W Ramrod said:

And for those who have had brass separation, there is a handy tool for use at the range.

Just drop it in action, close it and eject.

I've got one for .45, and .38.

Trying to remember which cowboy sells them.

 

Shotgun Boogie

[Appalachian Alan]

" have fired or cleared all capped chambers
prior to leaving the unloading area"

 

So I do not need to clear ANY fired caps at the unloading table ?

[Dutch Wheeler]

On 5/29/2018 at 10:16 AM, Flying W Ramrod said:

And for those who have had brass separation, there is a handy tool for use at the range.

Just drop it in action, close it and eject.

I've got one for .45, and .38.

Trying to remember which cowboy sells them.

 

You can also get them from Lassiter.  Bought one in .45 about 7 years ago from Lassiter and, fortunately, have never had to use it. 

 

However, it is always on my gun belt, just in case I need it!

[twelve mile REB]

A cap and ball revolver is NOT loaded until capped.  An expended cap even if whole would not constitute a loaded chamber or a hazard.  A piece of brass that has been rendered unserviceable by separating also renders the firearm unserviceable.  A leaded barrel is not a loaded gun but does have a piece of lead in the barrel all are safe enough to leave the unloading table although may need further service to be useable at a later date. (common sense 101 )

[Gawd Awful]

On 5/29/2018 at 7:16 AM, Flying W Ramrod said:

And for those who have had brass separation, there is a handy tool for use at the range.

Just drop it in action, close it and eject.

I've got one for .45, and .38.

Trying to remember which cowboy sells them.

 

Lassiter 

[Yusta B.]

Another thing to try - if you can insert a bronze cleaning brush of the next higher caliber into the chamber, threaded end toward the muzzle, use a barrel length cleaning rod through the muzzle to screw into the brush. Pull the brush toward the muzzle 1/2 the length of the chamber , then force it back toward the chamber. The bristles on the brush will grip the case & force it out the chamber. Worked for me.......