Update - Ford diesel Vs Ram diesel

[Barry Sloe]

Thinking of upgrading my Ram 2500 hemi to a diesel. Anyone have any good or bad experience with either the Ram or Ford diesels?  

Edit - I picked up a new Ram diesel. On the interstate coming home the mpg was better than the hemi. I think that will help offset the higher fuel cost.

 

Thanks to all,

Barry Sloe

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Unless you do a lot of towing, it ain't worth it.

OLG 

[Tucker McNeely]

Yea from what I’ve gathered from guys from work that have bought the newer Cummins diesels and don’t really tow much with them have turbo issues.  Look into that.  Best of luck.

[Charlie Whiskers]

  I have a 95 Ram 3/4 ton 2 WD with a Cummin's and a 5 speed manual. Mines the old mechanical injection and it pulls my (loaded) 6500 lb travel trailer with no problems. Depending on wind and terrain I average 11.9 to 16.7 I got 17.2 one time. It only has 267000 miles on it. Just getting broken in.

  Doing short trips and quite a bit of in town driving, I have 263 miles on it as of today and still have a tad over half a tank of fuel. Running at freeway speeds not towing I've gotten 22+ MPG. I can't comment on the new Ford Diesel for power and mileage, but I know the older 7.3 was one heck of a good diesel.

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104]

Towing is where the diesel engine shines.  The torque value is about 40% higher so your rig can handle hills and headwinds towing far better than a gasoline rig.  The engines will last longer than a gas engine.  The modern diesel by and large are good engines.  All of them have quirks and trouble spots if abused.

 

Cons-diesels cost more to buy.  The servicing costs are higher.  The armchair mechanic is usually not prepared to service/repair them.  Lack of maintenance by the owner can lead to very expensive repairs.  New engines require Urea (DEA) @$8.00+/gal.  Dirty fuel will stop you in your tracks.  Fuel treatments are beneficial due to low sulfur fuel eating injectors.

 

As OLG said, if you tow a lot, a diesel may be an advantage to you.  If you tow occasionally, one may not be worth the expense or learning curve. 

 

I have had good luck with the 7.3 and 6.0 Ford's.  The 6.4's have problems but the 6.7 has a good track record.  The Dodge's with the Cummins are known for reliability.

[Hillbilly Drifter]

I have had many trucks through the years for many things. Pulling horse trailers, hunting, daily use and now a 13000 lb 5th wheel. I selected a Ram 3500 SRW 4x4 crew cab 6 1/2 ' bed for the 5th wheel. I have never (until now) been impressed with the Dodge/Ram products. this thing is a beast! with the cummins 6.7 turbo diesel, I get all the torque and power one could imagine as well as decent fuel economy. At 5600 miles so far I have averaged 19.1 MPG and that includes my towing miles (approximately 500 of the total miles or 10%) All depends on your needs and use but this is a GREAT vehicle. It is also my daily driver.

[Sedalia Dave]

We have a 2015 Ford F350 with a diesel power plant that my department uses at work. On the highway not towing anything it only gets about 15 MPG.  Following it to the job site in my 2016 GMC 2500HD with the 6.0 I get 17 MPG running the same speed and route. 

 

None of the new diesels are going to get any where near the same MPG that the earlier diesel trucks got.   

 

My GMC also rides 1000% better that the Ford does. The back seats in that F350 will jar your insides out and the front is only slightly better. It is impossible to sleep in the back seats of the Ford, even at 4 in the morning after working a 14 hour shift the constant jarring prevents anything more that nodding off.  I haven't made any long trips in it pulling one of our heavy trailers so I don't know if it would ride better load.

 

As OLG stated unless you do a lot of towing the diesel engine is not worth the additional up front costs much less the higher fuel prices.

 

Diesel trucks are significantly heavier in the front end than their gasoline powered brothers. So if you plan to do much driving in the mud the diesel will leave stuck in the mud a lot more often.

[Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life]

I am on my 4th diesel pickup, bought my first one in 1984. I am a Ford guy, so all have been Fords. The early ones were 6.9s, one non turbo'd. Every one I have owned was a great truck! The best was my 1999 Powerstroke F350, 4x4 with automatic. Put 300,00 miles on it and it was never apart...engine or trans. My current 2014 F350 4x4 6 speed auto is great too. The 6.7 pulls well. I tow different trailers (28' travel, 20' utility, 22' pontoon boat). As mentioned earlier, servicing the mechanical stuff is the key to long life and reliability. If my current truck lasts as long as my 99 did, probably will never have to buy another truck...as I am 76 now.

 

I'll never buy another gas truck....period.

[Dorado]

I have a 1995 F350 7.3 turbo. It's the crewcab and longbed version. Like driving a train. It gets 14mpg in the city at best but on the highway I wouldn't doubt that it gets 25mpg. I drove from Wichta Falls, Tx to Tulsa, Ok and back on 1.5 tanks of fuel (has two fuel tanks). That's with a 3000lb slide-in camper in the bed. I wouldn't trade it for the latest best new one out there. Comfortable too, so long as you adjust the tire pressure and airbags properly.

[Pat Riot]

I do not own or need a diesel. I do work with a bunch of diesel mechanics. The guys I work with that have diesel trucks all have Dodges. Now, to be fair, they are very familiar with Cummins engines as they worked on them when they worked on buses so that may be the reason they like Dodges. Familiarity.

 

One of my friend’s, he’s had 3 diesel trucks, one old Ford and two Dodges, did tell me if you look at diesels find out what the labor rates are for getting work done outside the warranty. He said, in our area, Dodge shops have better diesel labor rates.

Something to consider. 

[Joke 'um]

From the non-driver/owner viewpoint:

A lady in our club has one of the new Dodges.  I couldn't believe it is a diesel.  No clattering cacophony when it is running.  No starting early or keeping it running all the time.  No smoke.

From a neighbor's point of view, get the Dodge.

[Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life]

21 minutes ago, Joke 'um said:

From the non-driver/owner viewpoint:

A lady in our club has one of the new Dodges.  I couldn't believe it is a diesel.  No clattering cacophony when it is running.  No starting early or keeping it running all the time.  No smoke.

From a neighbor's point of view, get the Dodge.

All newer pickup diesels are quiet and the diesel exhaust smell is no more. New emission requirements are the reason. It is also the reason for worse mileage for them. My new Ford doesn't stink and is as quiet as a gas engine.

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

My daughter has a 2000  Ford F350 with the 7L International. 3650000 miles and only minor things have worn out. Runs great.

 

When my daughter totaled our 2008 Ford F350 with the 6L diesel I was happy the engine was a POS. I asked our diesel mechanic what would he buy between Ford, Dodge, GM.

Dodge, Cummings is a great engine the rest of the truck is cheap and stuff breaks.

GM engine is OK but the front suspension system for the 4 wheel drive is not for heavy duty work. It uses car style "A" frame front suspension for the hubs.

Ford's new engine  is great and the trucks hold up better.

I bought a 2107 F350 diesel. Fantastic towing and power Mileage pulling a trailer was around 14.

The smog thing has now added something called DEF. Diesel exhaust fluid. It is injected into the exhaust to convert the gases into environmentally neutral results. The trucks have a 7 gallon or so tank. I have yet to run across a gas station that has DEF at the pump. It's around $25 for 5 gallons. A tank lasts about 7,000 miles. But if you run it dry, the computer puts the truck on limp to the dealer mode!. Theres a gauge for ti so now worries.

If you go diesel you're buying longevity. 

Ike

[Marshal Hangtree]

My 2001 Chevy Duramax is still hummin' along perfectly.  But then, it only has 250K on it.  Not even broken in yet.

 

But like others have said, if you don't tow a lot, skip the diesel.

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

I was a Heavy Truck Mechanic for over 20 years .

Very hard to beat a Cummins Engine

And a Allison Transmission

If I was Looking for a Truck to do a lot of Heavy Towing .

The Dodge Cummins would be the Only Truck I would looking at

IMHO .

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104]

12 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

 

When my daughter totaled our 2008 Ford F350 with the 6L diesel I was happy the engine was a POS. 

The 6.0L got a bad rap for a couple of design flaws that neither Ford nor International want to take credit for.  It's actually a pretty good engine if a body does a couple of  upgrades.  Mine has 201,000 miles on it and running great.

 

1) The head bolts were a new design stretch bolt that wasn't the correct metallurgy so it didn't hold torque correctly.  Currently you have to buy new head bolts with a head gasket.

 

The cure is to replace the OEM head bolts with ARP studs.

 

2) International didn't put a coolant filter on the engine so the internal oil cooler would get plugged which would starve the EGR for coolant.  The exhaust was hot enough to turn what little coolant there was in the EGR to steam then send it into the heads causing the head bolts to stretch and cause the head gasket to blow.

 

The cure was to add a coolant filter so all the downstream problems could be avoided.   In the non-smog states, an EGR delete kit is available or you can use a Bulletproof © EGR to upgrade those parts.

[J.D. Daily]

On 5/25/2018 at 6:55 AM, Joke 'um said:

From the non-driver/owner viewpoint:

A lady in our club has one of the new Dodges.  I couldn't believe it is a diesel.  No clattering cacophony when it is running.  No starting early or keeping it running all the time.  No smoke.

From a neighbor's point of view, get the Dodge.

Unless the owner of a 2007 or newer model year diesel powered heavy duty , medium duty or light duty on-road vehicle has illegally removed the diesel particulate filter element a diesel can't emit visible smoke.  Except for the in-line 6 in the Dodge 3/4 & 1 ton pickup trucks the Ford & GM (Isuzu) V8 diesels are pretty young.  Both were designed when common rail diesel injection systems were proven tech.  These engines were designed based on the common rail systems provide the most efficient lowest emissions & lowest noise; because, injection timing is independent of crank angle, pressure is independent of RPM & there can be multiple injection pulses per power stroke.  The Dodge Cummins diesel is based on the "B" series engine of the late 80's.  In 2010 the CARB & EPA limit for NOX emissions dropped to a value that can't be met by tweaking injection and cooled EGR*; so, except for VW all on-highway diesel engine mfg's employed Selective Catalyst Reduction.  SCR's use ammonia gas to react with oxides of nitrogen to produce H2O and N2.  Since ammonia is hazardous except for power plants it is not used.  High purity urea is injected into the engine exhaust where at exhaust temperatures above 400F it converts to ammonia.  In the Americas the urea solution is called Diesel Exhaust Fluid (DEF) in Europe it's Add Blue.**

 

*The the tweaks that lower NOX emissions hurt fuel consumption.  So, when SCR's were added the engine mfg's optimized fuel consumption & removed NOX by consuming urea.  An example is a 4,400HP CAT C175-16 engine.  In it's EPA tier 2 emissions configuration is burns 2.6% more fuel than its' tier 4 version.  This with a 98% reduction in NOX & 85% reduction in particulate emissions wo/ using a DPF.  The DEF consumption is 6.4% of fuel consumption.

 

**DEF can be purchased at auto parts stores, & truck stops.

 

P.S. VW used the less expensive NOX absorber technology which requires regeneration when saturated.  Regeneration requires running the engine rich which can only be done at no load conditions wo/destroying the pistons.  This is difficult to do at 70 miles an hour on I5 between Tracy & LA.  So, VW engine engineers used the computing power of today's microprocessors to optimize the engine performance for low emissions when operating on the EPA test cycle & fuel economy & torque when not.  They got away with it for many years until the EPA gave grants to two universities to test emissions on diesel vehicles that were already on the road.

[Fireball #7709 Life]

I'm on my 3rd Dodge Cummins and would recommend them, wish I'd of kept the 2nd one, and am considering a 4th.  With the exception of the current one, they've all been the 3500 single axle 4x4 models with a standard trans.  The current one is a 2500 automatic and I'm not fond of the auto's shifting habits and the "slushy" ride of the lighter springs.  The reason I'm considering a 4th is those preferences, they've all been dependable solid trucks otherwise.

 

Not excited about the DEF situation(mine are all old enough to not have had that), but it appears its a common item to delete, in states that don't have emissions testing laws. 

[Three Foot Johnson]

On 5/25/2018 at 11:51 AM, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

My daughter has a 2000  Ford F350 with the 7L International. 3650000 miles and only minor things have worn out. Runs great.

Over three and a half MILLION miles? C'mon...

 

I currently drive an F350 PSD. If I were to buy a new truck today, it would be a Ram/Cummins.

I don't understand the reasoning, I guess, but I've read more than once that a straight six is also the best configuration for a diesel.

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

I got carried away with hitting the zero key, 350,000.

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

The Ford will give you more days of walking ....

 

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104]

1 hour ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

I got carried away with hitting the zero key, 350,000.

The 7.3 PSD is called the million miles engine because they last.  Unfortunately, they couldn't become more emissions efficient.  That's when the VDT came in and then came twin turbos, catalytic converter, DEF, OBD I computers were tweaked, etc.  Dodge is the only company still offering a manual transmission if that's important.

[Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life]

4 hours ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

The 7.3 PSD is called the million miles engine because they last.  Unfortunately, they couldn't become more emissions efficient.  That's when the VDT came in and then came twin turbos, catalytic converter, DEF, OBD I computers were tweaked, etc.  Dodge is the only company still offering a manual transmission if that's important.

Actually a few years back manual trannys started to be rated less for towing. Weak link is not the trans, but the clutch and also the driver.

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104]

56 minutes ago, Big Sage, SASS #49891 Life said:

Actually a few years back manual trannys started to be rated less for towing. Weak link is not the trans, but the clutch and also the driver.

While this is true, it's much harder for the OBD II to manage emissions as well.  The manual also allows drivers to push the engines past the internal heat threshold unless they install pyrometers and oil temperature gauges to keep exhaust gases and oil temperatures within the desired parameters.

[BLACKFOOT SASS #11947]

On 5/25/2018 at 12:51 PM, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

My daughter has a 2000  Ford F350 with the 7L International. 3650000 miles and only minor things have worn out. Runs great.

 

When my daughter totaled our 2008 Ford F350 with the 6L diesel I was happy the engine was a POS. I asked our diesel mechanic what would he buy between Ford, Dodge, GM.

Dodge, Cummings is a great engine the rest of the truck is cheap and stuff breaks.

GM engine is OK but the front suspension system for the 4 wheel drive is not for heavy duty work. It uses car style "A" frame front suspension for the hubs.

Ford's new engine  is great and the trucks hold up better.

I bought a 2107 F350 diesel. Fantastic towing and power Mileage pulling a trailer was around 14.

The smog thing has now added something called DEF. Diesel exhaust fluid. It is injected into the exhaust to convert the gases into environmentally neutral results. The trucks have a 7 gallon or so tank. I have yet to run across a gas station that has DEF at the pump. It's around $25 for 5 gallons. A tank lasts about 7,000 miles. But if you run it dry, the computer puts the truck on limp to the dealer mode!. Theres a gauge for ti so now worries.

If you go diesel you're buying longevity. 

Ike

 

Would you mind sending a little more information about the F350 with over six and a half million miles on it?  Also please post a picture of your 2107 truck.

Thanks, Blackfoot

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

OK Blackfoot, I can't type, happy?

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

Irish Ike ,,,, I hope you can Walk ....

 

The feature I would most like to see on Ford pick-ups is ,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,, Heated tail-gates so you don't freeze your hands badly pushing them ....

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Dirty Dan Dawkins]

On 5/24/2018 at 9:49 PM, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Unless you do a lot of towing, it ain't worth it.

OLG 

My cousin has worked for both Ford and Dodge on gas and diesels. He owns two trucks- a 2014 Dodge 1500 Hemi 4wd and a 93 2500 4wd with a 12 valve and manual tranny. He thinks the 6.7 PSD and 6.7 Cummins are a  toss up, with the weak link being the emissions and electronics on ANY vehicle made now.

What he educated me on, unless you pull all of the time,

The added cost of a diesel, and the maintenance will buy a lot of gas and tires and brakes. When the emissions,turbo fails etc and so forth on these new engines ,  expect ridiculous repair bills. The Ford 6.2 gas engine and the 6.4 Hemi both have a higher torque rating than the early 5.9 and 7.3's.  Granted, its at a higher RPM as the diesels torque curve is at a lower RPM range. And sure, the diesel, SHOULD last longer. But all of the emissions and electronics have done a lot to reduce longevity. He stated the Ford 6.2's never come back for anything. Dodge 6.4 have a higher maintenance cost largely due to the cost of the 0-40W oil they spec.

Side note: My buddies '05 3500 Cummins finally crapped out at over 750,000 miles. Went through a couple of trannies and rear ends.

If I were wanting a part time dedicated puller, I think I'd get an old 1 ton Chevy with a 454. They're cheap to buy and dependable. If you're towing a  really heavy load, 8-10 mpg doesn't seem so bad compared to  13-15 mpg; especially if its not saddled to a $850-$1000 for 72 month payment, a $2-300 year tag and $200 month insurance. I just assume buy a dependable gas burner and pay towards somemountain land......

[Barry Sloe]

Made a road trip to Tombstone on Sunday for a little shopping. With the old hemi I would get an average 15 - 17 mpg (overall). The diesel got 20.8 mpg! It's about 125 miles round trip. 

So far the diesel is putting a smile on my face.

 

Barry Sloe

[Captain Clark]

1 hour ago, Barry Sloe said:

Made a road trip to Tombstone on Sunday for a little shopping. With the old hemi I would get an average 15 - 17 mpg (overall). The diesel got 20.8 mpg! It's about 125 miles round trip. 

So far the diesel is putting a smile on my face.

 

Barry Sloe

That's all well and good.....But how good's the AC working this time of year in Arizona?? 

 

Hope your enjoying that retirement thing.

CC

[Barry Sloe]

27 minutes ago, Captain Clark said:

That's all well and good.....But how good's the AC working this time of year in Arizona?? 

 

Hope your enjoying that retirement thing.

CC

The a/c is already being stressed.  As for retirement, I'm still waiting for all that quiet time to kick in.

 

BS

[Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104]

3 hours ago, Barry Sloe said:

The a/c is already being stressed.  As for retirement, I'm still waiting for all that quiet time to kick in.

 

BS

Good luck with that.  I've been retired for 18 months and have less time now than before.

[Too Tall Bob]

6 hours ago, Captain Clark said:

That's all well and good.....But how good's the AC working this time of year in Arizona?? 

 

Hope your enjoying that retirement thing.

CC

His ac works good and so does his wife’s new corvette!

[Barry Sloe]

5 hours ago, Too Tall Bob said:

His ac works good and so does his wife’s new corvette!

Ssssh.  That's the girl friend, not the wife. 

 

BS

[Blackwater 53393]

On 5/29/2018 at 4:46 PM, Dirty Dan Dawkins said:

My cousin has worked for both Ford and Dodge on gas and diesels. He owns two trucks- a 2014 Dodge 1500 Hemi 4wd and a 93 2500 4wd with a 12 valve and manual tranny. He thinks the 6.7 PSD and 6.7 Cummins are a  toss up, with the weak link being the emissions and electronics on ANY vehicle made now.

What he educated me on, unless you pull all of the time,

The added cost of a diesel, and the maintenance will buy a lot of gas and tires and brakes. When the emissions,turbo fails etc and so forth on these new engines ,  expect ridiculous repair bills. The Ford 6.2 gas engine and the 6.4 Hemi both have a higher torque rating than the early 5.9 and 7.3's.  Granted, its at a higher RPM as the diesels torque curve is at a lower RPM range. And sure, the diesel, SHOULD last longer. But all of the emissions and electronics have done a lot to reduce longevity. He stated the Ford 6.2's never come back for anything. Dodge 6.4 have a higher maintenance cost largely due to the cost of the 0-40W oil they spec.

Side note: My buddies '05 3500 Cummins finally crapped out at over 750,000 miles. Went through a couple of trannies and rear ends.

If I were wanting a part time dedicated puller, I think I'd get an old 1 ton Chevy with a 454. They're cheap to buy and dependable. If you're towing a  really heavy load, 8-10 mpg doesn't seem so bad compared to  13-15 mpg; especially if its not saddled to a $850-$1000 for 72 month payment, a $2-300 year tag and $200 month insurance. I just assume buy a dependable gas burner and pay towards somemountain land......

 

I had my ‘97 454 Vortec Chevy dually re-programmed by a guy out in Tulsa, Oklahoma.  Changed the entire mapping of the fuel injectors, ignition, and the transmission and torque converter. It gained 30+ hp and gets about 16 mpg unloaded.  I hauled a ‘65 T-bird on one load and a tandem axle trailer loaded with steel on another load last weekend for a total of about 300 miles and still had gas to knock around, unloaded,  ‘til this morning. Roughly 12.5 mpg.

 

Ol’ Green has over 380,000 miles on it and it still cruises like a B52!!

 

These guys that know how to reprogram these ECMs can get a lot more out of these electronic controls, providing big gains in performance and mileage!