evil dogooder Posted May 19, 2018 Share Posted May 19, 2018 Had some interesting debate on this today. Rifle and pistol don't matter. Shooter is supposed to pick up shotgun from position 1 move to position 2 shoot targets till down. Shooter picks up shotgun from turns and fired 2 shots from position 1 hits targets but they don't fall. To corrects shooter and they move to position 2 and shoots targets correctly. So some say it's a p for firing from the wrong spot. Other side a miss can't cause a p and clean. I sat back and had some chips watching this one. It was fun Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
40Chev Posted May 19, 2018 Share Posted May 19, 2018 10-SECOND PENALTIES 10-second penalties include “Procedural” (P) penalties and Minor Safety Violations (MSV). Procedural errors are simple, unintentional mistakes made as a result of “brain fade” or confusion, where the competitor engages the stage in a way other than how it was intended. Procedural penalties cannot exceed one per stage. Minor Safety Violations (MSV) are lesser safety infractions that do not directly endanger persons. Procedural (P) infractions include: - Failure to attempt to fire a firearm, engage a prop, or perform a stage maneuver. - Shooting targets in the wrong order. - Engaging the stage in the wrong order. - Use of illegally acquired ammunition. - Not returning revolvers to leather (unless otherwise specified). - First offense in the same match for “shooting out of category.” Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted May 19, 2018 Share Posted May 19, 2018 49 minutes ago, evil dogooder said: Had some interesting debate on this today. Rifle and pistol don't matter. Shooter is supposed to pick up shotgun from position 1 move to position 2 shoot targets till down. Shooter picks up shotgun from turns and fired 2 shots from position 1 hits targets but they don't fall. To corrects shooter and they move to position 2 and shoots targets correctly. So some say it's a p for firing from the wrong spot. Other side a miss can't cause a p and clean. I sat back and had some chips watching this one. It was fun It's a "P"...the misses from the wrong position are irrelevant...the misses didn't "cause a procedural". Quote - If a firearm is shot out of sequence or from the wrong position or location, the shooter will be assessed a single procedural penalty. SHB p.16 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evil dogooder Posted May 19, 2018 Author Share Posted May 19, 2018 Yep that's what I thought but it was sure fun to watch the debate today. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
40Chev Posted May 19, 2018 Share Posted May 19, 2018 That debate was short lived compared to the one at the train stage. That one might still be going on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyesa Horg Posted May 20, 2018 Share Posted May 20, 2018 P'd myowndangself sorta that way yesterday. Was sposed to shoot L-R 2 KD's. I shot R-L, but the R stayed up and L fell, then shot R again. I felt a P and that's what I got, but some thought the miss on the 1st try on R negated the P, I didn't agree due to intent. I intended like an idiot to shoot the wrong one 1st. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted May 20, 2018 Share Posted May 20, 2018 11 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said: P'd myowndangself sorta that way yesterday. Was sposed to shoot L-R 2 KD's. I shot R-L, but the R stayed up and L fell, then shot R again. I felt a P and that's what I got, but some thought the miss on the 1st try on R negated the P, I didn't agree due to intent. I intended like an idiot to shoot the wrong one 1st. That IS a case of "a miss cannot cause a procedural". Intent is irrelevant. The example I use in RO classes is two rifle targets 20 feet apart. Instructions to alternate starting on R2. (R2-R1-R2-R1...) Shooter fires first shot at R1 and misses, then re-engages R1 to get back in order; hitting the rest of the targets as required. The call would only be the 1 miss for that first shot...NO "P", regardless of obvious intent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypress Sam, SASS #10915 Posted May 20, 2018 Share Posted May 20, 2018 It looks to me like Eyesa Horg penalized himself in error. He missed R on the first shot. It would have been a P if he hit it, but he didn’t. There isn’t a rule for how far a target has to be missed, so the presumption has to be that he missed L. L was the first target hit per stage instructions so no P. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypress Sam, SASS #10915 Posted May 20, 2018 Share Posted May 20, 2018 Fortunately I shoot faster than I type. PW beat me again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Kit Cool Gun Garth Posted May 20, 2018 Share Posted May 20, 2018 3 hours ago, Cypress Sam, SASS #10915 said: Fortunately I shoot faster than I type. PW beat me again. Sam, I've heard of the expression, "Never bring a knife to a gunfight"; however, I wouldn't suggest a typewriter to one either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eyesa Horg Posted May 20, 2018 Share Posted May 20, 2018 Thanks guys, I was sure I had the P as the miss was unexpected due to being a shotgun. It wavered but didn't fall, so it was obvious I shot the wrong one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cowboy Junky Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 22 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: That IS a case of "a miss cannot cause a procedural". Intent is irrelevant. The example I use in RO classes is two rifle targets 20 feet apart. Instructions to alternate starting on R2. (R2-R1-R2-R1...) Shooter fires first shot at R1 and misses, then re-engages R1 to get back in order; hitting the rest of the targets as required. The call would only be the 1 miss for that first shot...NO "P", regardless of obvious intent. I want a pin that says Intent is irrelevant.........lol. I have made calls like in this example and people just shake their heads and think you are way off base..........hopefully they look it up when they get home. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Riverboat Red, SASS #71733 Posted May 21, 2018 Share Posted May 21, 2018 On 5/19/2018 at 6:42 PM, evil dogooder said: Yep that's what I thought but it was sure fun to watch the debate today. I thought that was an easy one, I don't even remember the debate. I also thought you were going to bring up the train stage. My brain still hurts from that one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ramblin Gambler Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 On 5/19/2018 at 5:13 PM, evil dogooder said: Other side a miss can't cause a p and clean. That's like saying you wish OB1 hadn't died in Star Track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 Lets not bring up intent... Boy howdy did I get into it a few weeks ago concerning a pistol miss generating a SOG penalty. The conclusion was that I'm a jerk for arguing against determining intent and questioning a MD!! Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 25 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Lets not bring up intent... Boy howdy did I get into it a few weeks ago concerning a pistol miss generating a SOG penalty. The conclusion was that I'm a jerk for arguing against determining intent and questioning a MD!! Phantom OK-You 'baited' the trap well. PLZ, fill us in.... OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
evil dogooder Posted May 22, 2018 Author Share Posted May 22, 2018 On Monday, May 21, 2018 at 9:57 AM, Riverboat Red, SASS #71733 said: I thought that was an easy one, I don't even remember the debate. I also thought you were going to bring up the train stage. My brain still hurts from that one. That's because this was with friends we went out to supper with. It was fun to watch Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smoky Pistols Posted May 22, 2018 Share Posted May 22, 2018 2 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Lets not bring up intent... Boy howdy did I get into it a few weeks ago concerning a pistol miss generating a SOG penalty. The conclusion was that I'm a jerk for arguing against determining intent and questioning a MD!! Phantom *mutters* Don't say nuthin, just don't say nuthin!!! HEHEHE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 3 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: OK-You 'baited' the trap well. PLZ, fill us in.... OLG Ooooh no! (Ref Tully Mars?) Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 5 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Ooooh no! (Ref Tully Mars?) Phantom You mean to say he's real......... OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 Hello, I know Tully Mars. He is a great guy. Regards, Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phantom, SASS #54973 Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 6 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said: Hello, I know Tully Mars. He is a great guy. Regards, Allie Who said he was anything else????? This is what happens. Folks read into something that isn't there. Phantom Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted May 23, 2018 Share Posted May 23, 2018 17 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: You mean to say he's real......... OLG 10 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said: Hello, I know Tully Mars. He is a great guy. Regards, Allie 2 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said: Who said he was anything else????? This is what happens. Folks read into something that isn't there. Phantom I was replying to Lumpy's post, which was probably a rhetorical question. Maybe, I should have quoted him. I didn't think I needed to as his post immediately preceded mine. See what happened, you read something into it that wasn't there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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