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evil dogooder

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 Had some interesting debate on this today. 

 Rifle and pistol don't matter. 

 

  Shooter is supposed to pick up shotgun from position 1 move to position 2 shoot targets till down.   

  Shooter picks up shotgun from turns and fired 2 shots from position 1 hits targets but they don't fall.  To corrects shooter and they move to position 2 and shoots targets correctly. 

  

    So some say it's a p for firing from the wrong spot. 

  Other side  a miss can't cause a p  and clean.     I sat back and had some chips watching this one.  It was fun

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10-SECOND PENALTIES 10-second penalties include “Procedural” (P) penalties and Minor Safety Violations (MSV).  Procedural errors are simple, unintentional mistakes made as a result of “brain fade” or confusion, where the competitor engages the stage in a way other than how it was intended.  Procedural penalties cannot exceed one per stage.  Minor Safety Violations (MSV) are lesser safety infractions that do not directly endanger persons.   Procedural (P) infractions include: - Failure to attempt to fire a firearm, engage a prop, or perform a stage maneuver. - Shooting targets in the wrong order. - Engaging the stage in the wrong order. - Use of illegally acquired ammunition. - Not returning revolvers to leather (unless otherwise specified). - First offense in the same match for “shooting out of category.”

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49 minutes ago, evil dogooder said:

 Had some interesting debate on this today. 

 Rifle and pistol don't matter. 

 

  Shooter is supposed to pick up shotgun from position 1 move to position 2 shoot targets till down.   

  Shooter picks up shotgun from turns and fired 2 shots from position 1 hits targets but they don't fall.  To corrects shooter and they move to position 2 and shoots targets correctly. 

  

    So some say it's a p for firing from the wrong spot. 

  Other side  a miss can't cause a p  and clean.     I sat back and had some chips watching this one.  It was fun

 

It's a "P"...the misses from the wrong position are irrelevant...the misses didn't "cause a procedural".

 

Quote

- If a firearm is shot out of sequence or from the wrong position or location, the shooter will be assessed a single procedural penalty.

SHB p.16

 

 

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Yep that's what I thought but it was sure fun to watch the debate today.  

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P'd myowndangself sorta that way yesterday. Was sposed to shoot L-R 2 KD's. I shot R-L, but the R stayed up and L fell, then shot R again. I felt a P and that's what I got, but some thought the miss on the 1st try on R negated the P, I didn't agree due to intent. I intended like an idiot to shoot the wrong one 1st.:D

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11 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

P'd myowndangself sorta that way yesterday. Was sposed to shoot L-R 2 KD's. I shot R-L, but the R stayed up and L fell, then shot R again. I felt a P and that's what I got, but some thought the miss on the 1st try on R negated the P, I didn't agree due to intent. I intended like an idiot to shoot the wrong one 1st.:D

 

That IS a case of "a miss cannot cause a procedural".

Intent is irrelevant.

The example I use in RO classes is two rifle targets 20 feet apart. Instructions to alternate starting on R2.  (R2-R1-R2-R1...)

Shooter fires first shot at R1 and misses, then re-engages R1 to get back in order; hitting the rest of the targets as required.

The call would only be the 1 miss for that first shot...NO "P", regardless of obvious intent.

 

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It looks to me like Eyesa Horg penalized himself in error.  He missed R on the first shot.  It would have been a P if he hit it, but he didn’t.  There isn’t a rule for how far a target has to be missed, so the presumption has to be that he missed L.  L was the first target hit per stage instructions so no P.

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3 hours ago, Cypress Sam, SASS #10915 said:

Fortunately I shoot faster than I type.  PW beat me again.

 

Sam,

    I've heard of the expression, "Never bring a knife to a gunfight"; however, I wouldn't suggest a typewriter to one either. :P

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Thanks guys, I was sure I had the P as the miss was unexpected due to being a shotgun. It wavered but didn't fall, so it was obvious I shot the wrong one.

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22 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

That IS a case of "a miss cannot cause a procedural".

Intent is irrelevant.

The example I use in RO classes is two rifle targets 20 feet apart. Instructions to alternate starting on R2.  (R2-R1-R2-R1...)

Shooter fires first shot at R1 and misses, then re-engages R1 to get back in order; hitting the rest of the targets as required.

The call would only be the 1 miss for that first shot...NO "P", regardless of obvious intent.

 

I want a pin that says Intent is irrelevant.........lol. I have made calls like in this example and people just shake their heads and think you are way off base..........hopefully they look it up when they get home. 

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On 5/19/2018 at 6:42 PM, evil dogooder said:

Yep that's what I thought but it was sure fun to watch the debate today.  

I thought that was an easy one, I don't even remember the debate. 

I also thought you were going to bring up the train stage. My brain still hurts from that one.

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Lets not bring up intent... Boy howdy did I get into it a few weeks ago concerning a pistol miss generating a SOG penalty.  

 

The conclusion was that I'm a jerk for arguing against determining intent and questioning a MD!!

 

Phantom

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25 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Lets not bring up intent... Boy howdy did I get into it a few weeks ago concerning a pistol miss generating a SOG penalty.  

 

The conclusion was that I'm a jerk for arguing against determining intent and questioning a MD!!

 

Phantom

OK-You 'baited' the trap well. ^_^

PLZ, fill us in....

OLG

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On Monday, May 21, 2018 at 9:57 AM, Riverboat Red, SASS #71733 said:

I thought that was an easy one, I don't even remember the debate. 

I also thought you were going to bring up the train stage. My brain still hurts from that one.

That's because this was with friends we went out to supper with.   It was fun to watch

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2 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Lets not bring up intent... Boy howdy did I get into it a few weeks ago concerning a pistol miss generating a SOG penalty.  

 

The conclusion was that I'm a jerk for arguing against determining intent and questioning a MD!!

 

Phantom

*mutters*  Don't say nuthin, just don't say nuthin!!!  HEHEHE

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6 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Hello,

 

I know Tully Mars. He is a great guy.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

Who said he was anything else?????

 

This is what happens. Folks read into something that isn't there. 

 

Phantom

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17 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

You mean to say he's real.........:lol:

OLG

 

10 minutes ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Hello,

 

I know Tully Mars. He is a great guy.

 

Regards,

 

Allie

 

2 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Who said he was anything else?????

 

This is what happens. Folks read into something that isn't there. 

 

Phantom

I was replying to Lumpy's post, which was probably a rhetorical question. Maybe, I should have quoted him. I didn't think I needed to as his post immediately preceded mine.

 

See what happened, you read something into it that wasn't there. :P ;) :)

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