How many have actually seen cheating?

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

I have been somewhat troubled by the tenor and implications of some of the threads lately.

<rant mode on>

Reading a few of the more current threads they seem to imply that some shooters see cheating on a regular basis at some clubs.

Some shooters (particularly newer shooters) make no bones about it and post saying that the gamers are cheaters. We disagree

Some shooters (particularly newer shooters) have claimed that they see 170 violations on a regular basis, don't call it because they don't want to be ostracized at the club in question but have no problem calling others out (without naming names of course) on the impersonal and unaccountable Wire. We disagree

Some shooters think the rules are incorrect, unintelligible, and retained only because the "old guard" has found all the loopholes and wants to keep them that way for their benefit and that "they"  know more about the game and should rewrite the rule book to better suit their version of CAS. We disagree

I have given a SOG because the stage description called for that penalty if a mandatory reload was not attempted regardless of the reason why. Circumstances were weird but the shooter, posse marshal, range officer (it was a big match) and myself all concurred that was the correct call. Boy did I hate to do that but I was TO at the time and the penalty was called for and enforced as my responsibility. That was the only SOG I have passed out.

Now I am not one of the oldest shooters but I have been around a little (about 11 years), shot at various clubs here and there (only four states, had some success, had some failures) served my fellow shooters as much as I can in all the range officer positions except match director for a state or above shoot and IMHO there are some who push the limits (legally), some who break the rules and earn penalties, but I have yet to actually observe a fellow cowboy or cowgirl actually cheat.

I guess my point is that if I were to observe a cheating incident I would call it what it is.... cheating and deal with it by the existing rules. But isn't it about time we got back to Cowboy Action Shooting, the Cowboy Way and all the other things that make this game great rather than acting like the real world and whining over every little thing and being offended or getting upset because we don't get our way? Could somebody tell me what really needs improving that much in this sport that feelings getting hurt is ok and old friends arguing with one another is normal and new friends just fade away before we really get to know them?

<rant mode off>

Regards

 

  

 

Gateway Kid

Mods if this is out of line remove it please

[Doc Shapiro]

I have seen actual cheating, and I will NOT provide any details or out the shooter.  That's just not right.

 

Bottom line is that we do what's right.  Leave it there.  The Wire ain't life.  Let's keep perspective.

 

Have to be honest.  I'm not sure what you're point is in that post...

[Kirk James]

I have not seen cheating in the seven years I have shot SASS.  I shoot 5 clubs and have not seen a problem.  I have heard others talk about a shooter cheating, running into the TO to get a re-shoot etc...  but have not witnessed in myself.   I have witnessed poor spotters; but have never felt they were assisting another shooter.  I am sure I have made my share of mistakes, but never to give an advantage to another shooter.  I have witnessed inappropriate behavior,   but never to cheat.  The rules are tough to follow as witnessed by the wire.  I have seen my fair share of disagreements but never felt a shooter was trying to cheat the system.  I must admit, I am shocked at everyone's concern regarding where the belly button is regarding their shotgun belt.  I have witness plenty of top 16 shoot offs, the best of the best,  but have never had a concern about where their shotgun belt is.   For example, if they got rid of the rule, would all the great shooters jack them up to get more of an advantage?  As I said before, let the Range Officers and Posse Marshals do their job and enjoy what you do.   

[Widder, SASS #59054]

2 hours ago, Kirk James said:

I have not seen cheating in the seven years I have shot SASS.  I shoot 5 clubs and have not seen a problem.  I have heard others talk about a shooter cheating, running into the TO to get a re-shoot etc...  but have not witnessed in myself.   I have witnessed poor spotters; but have never felt they were assisting another shooter.  I am sure I have made my share of mistakes, but never to give an advantage to another shooter.  I have witnessed inappropriate behavior,   but never to cheat.  The rules are tough to follow as witnessed by the wire.  I have seen my fair share of disagreements but never felt a shooter was trying to cheat the system.  I must admit, I am shocked at everyone's concern regarding where the belly button is regarding their shotgun belt.  I have witness plenty of top 16 shoot offs, the best of the best,  but have never had a concern about where their shotgun belt is.   For example, if they got rid of the rule, would all the great shooters jack them up to get more of an advantage?  As I said before, let the Range Officers and Posse Marshals do their job and enjoy what you do.   

 

Howdy KJ.

I wear my SG belt legally and I would not jack it up.  I see no advantage in doing so.

 

I agree with your Post.   We may all do something in 'error'......but 'cheating', NO.

 

..........Widder

 

[BLACKFOOT SASS #11947]

Yes, I have seen cheating.  A match official was doing a shoot through and changed his score card before turning it in. 

 

Blackfoot

[John Henry Quick]

I shoot with two clubs and attend the annual blackpowder shootout with a third and I have never seen anyone cheat.

 

I have seen the "gamer" term thrown around in USPSA as a true pejorative, but here in CAS I've only seen it used in jest.  Maybe I've missed something, but I think that maybe you're reading a little too much into people's comments here recently.

 

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

I don't shoot a lot of clubs, but I've never seen cheating. I've had SDQ, MDQ and I earned them. Calling someone a gamer is totally in fun. Been shooting for 11 years.

[Pat Riot]

Years ago I witnessed cheating and gaming, there is a difference.

 

The cheating was more in the form of pushing being a gamer to the limits. It was done by folks that were on their way to possibly winning a belt buckle at EOT.

 

I never understood cheating in a game where the ultimate reward wasn’t material, but pride and self-worth. Well, I have never understood cheating at all.

 

Cheating for money is one thing but the kind of person that cheats their own self worth, their reputation, just for the sake of ego and selfishness. Not Cowboy. Not Cowboy at all. I want no part of ‘em.

[Smoken D]

Seen it & will just let it go at that. In the past. Ya asked and I could answer that one.

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

Thank you all for your responses.

They confirm what my experience has been, i.e. that if there is cheating it is very rare and we handle it within the rules.

That said I read most of the threads on the wire and most of the newer responses to those posts every other day or so, and if I were a newer shooter I could be led to believe that cheating is rampant and that the rules are ambiguous at best and the rule book needs rewritten to stop that or to clarify what in general (seems to me) are pretty obvious situations.

No one particular response, thread or post but taken as a whole... it seems we spend way less time (recently) talking about the joy the game brings, the friendships/relationships that are built by shared experiences and way to much time pointing out only the negatives.

Regards

 

  

 

Gateway Kid

 

[Ramblin Gambler]

Blows my mind that people actually cheat.  I haven't seen it.  But maybe the cheaters around here are just so slick that they haven't been caught. 

[evil dogooder]

See there really is no gray area in cheating.  If you are breaking the rules you are cheating.    I've seen it at every club I've ever shot.   Mostly with the remark of its just a monthly so let it slide. 

   holster angle and gun mods.   I've seen match directors use an illegal rifle for a category.  Lugged boots in cc. Adjustable sites in fixed site only category s. 170 violations... state or above matches that allow non sass members to shoot to pad the club bank account.  the list goes on.... 

    Look at the big blow up about straight triggers in rifles a few years back.  Some of the biggest names argued and belittled people for questioning it because they had been used for years.    Then when it turned out they weren't legal did you see anybody apologise?   Yes I know they are legal now.

   How many clubs say in their safety meeting all sass rules apply, then allow stuff that is not sass legal.  

        Enforcing the rules is not being a hard a$$. The rules are there for a reason.  If you allow someone to get away with breaking them you are cheating everybody that plays by the rules. 

[Okie Sawbones, SASS #77381]

Saw a guy use a 73 at a state shoot in B Western. He was never called until the match was over. Then instead of a penalty, they just changed his category.  Won't comment further.

[John Boy]

 

Quote

How many have actually seen cheating?

 I've watched several regular shooter's 38 Spl bullets go down range to the targets

[Ramblin Gambler]

1 hour ago, evil dogooder said:

See there really is no gray area in cheating.  If you are breaking the rules you are cheating.    

 

There is gray area.  This is like saying everytime an offensive lineman holds it's cheating.  Technically it may be true, but people reserve the word for more serious offenses.    Sorry but you can't convince me that I'm Cheating" when my SG belt rides up, or I shoot the wrong gun because I forgot.  Especially not if I get a penalty or make it right afterwards.  Cheating should be reserved for things like purposely running into the TO to get a reshoot or changing your score when no one is looking. 

 

If my team holds it's a mental lapse.  If their opponent holds, it's blatant cheating and they should be evicted from the game and their house repossessed. 

[Texas John Ringo, SASS #10138]

I've been shooting this game since 1994 and I have seen A LOT of cheating over that time. But I'm like Doc Shapiro, I'm not naming names. I've seen shooters try and got away with it , some did and some did not, I've seen timer operators cover the timer for other shooters, I've seen scores changed (just an example, at a monthly match. I was a spotter for a really good shooter that have several misses over the course of the match. But at awards he received a clean match award and Overall winner.) Seen shooters shoot the stage wrong and get away with it. Don't see it quite as much as I used to, but it still happens.

 

[Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L]

14 hours ago, Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life said:

Some shooters (particularly newer shooters) have claimed that they see 170 violations on a regular basis, don't call it because they don't want to be ostracized at the club in question but have no problem calling others out (without naming names of course) on the impersonal and unaccountable Wire. We disagree

Some shooters think the rules are incorrect, unintelligible, and retained only because the "old guard" has found all the loopholes and wants to keep them that way for their benefit and that "they"  know more about the game and should rewrite the rule book to better suit their version of CAS. We disagree

 

sounds like we're talking about a 2LT 

[evil dogooder]

1 hour ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

 

There is gray area.  This is like saying everytime an offensive lineman holds it's cheating.  Technically it may be true, but people reserve the word for more serious offenses.    Sorry but you can't convince me that I'm Cheating" when my SG belt rides up, or I shoot the wrong gun because I forgot.  Especially not if I get a penalty or make it right afterwards.  Cheating should be reserved for things like purposely running into the TO to get a reshoot or changing your score when no one is looking. 

 

If my team holds it's a mental lapse.  If their opponent holds, it's blatant cheating and they should be evicted from the game and their house repossessed. 

Sorry but we will just have to agree  to disagree.  Because everybody holds on a line doesn't make it legal.  Or a gray area.  It just isn't being called. It means that they don't want to slow the game by calling everybody on it.   That's like saying a lady is only a little bit pregnant.   Sorry either you are or you aren't.  

  If you know your belt continually rides up to  not legal then you should be doing something to adjust it so it doesn't.  If you get called on it would you argue?  Shooting a gun wrong by accident isn't cheating.  Shooting it wrong on purpose is. 

    

[Rye Miles #13621]

I've never seen cheating in the 20 years I've been shooting! At least not that I know of!

[McCandless]

There is either SASS-legal or SASS-illegal.  Play it like it's written.  If you don't like a rule, work through your TG to get it changed.  But, until the rule is changed, you'll get called on it.

As far as real cheating.  (shooter changing his times while keeping score) Yes, I have seen it.  Yes it is exceedingly rare.  Fortunately, we have rules to deal with that, too. 

[Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362]

First you need to define what you think cheating is.If wearing a shotgun belt above the belly button is cheating than most shooters are cheating .The same goes with the 170 , 180 , and 45 rule can you tell exactly where these angles  begin ? I think not .

Are we all cheaters? common sense is the right path along with safety.

[McCandless]

5 minutes ago, Texas jack Black SASS#9362 said:

First you need to define what you think cheating is.If wearing a shotgun belt above the belly button is cheating than most shooters are cheating .The same goes with the 170 , 180 , and 45 rule can you tell exactly where these angles  begin ? I think not .

Are we all cheaters? common sense is the right path along with safety.

Those are not examples of cheating, those are rules infractions and have a prescribed penalty.  True cheating is a rare bird.  Scores being changed, misses disappearing, buddy posses giving each other "breaks"... Haven't seen those in a long, long, time.  If it's happened recently, I haven't seen it.

[Guest Texas jack Black SASS#9362]

 

8 minutes ago, McCandless said:

Those are not examples of cheating, those are rules infractions and have a prescribed penalty.  True cheating is a rare bird.  Scores being changed, misses disappearing, buddy posses giving each other "breaks"... Haven't seen those in a long, long, time.  If it's happened recently, I haven't seen it.

That is why we need to define cheating with more clarity. 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

4 hours ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

 

There is gray area.  This is like saying everytime an offensive lineman holds it's cheating.  Technically it may be true, but people reserve the word for more serious offenses.    Sorry but you can't convince me that I'm Cheating" when my SG belt rides up, or I shoot the wrong gun because I forgot.  Especially not if I get a penalty or make it right afterwards.  Cheating should be reserved for things like purposely running into the TO to get a reshoot or changing your score when no one is looking. 

 

If my team holds it's a mental lapse.  If their opponent holds, it's blatant cheating and they should be evicted from the game and their house repossessed. 

You've got me a bit baffled here. I agree with you that it's not "Cheating"...but what do you call it?? You know that your equipment is failing and putting you in violation of a rule...and by the sound of it you're not doing anything about it.

 

Seriously...what do you call it?

 

Phantom

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

I have witnessed cheating a few times, but not when I’ve been in a position to call it. I watched a posse at a match I wasn’t shooting, as at least 5 shooters broke the 170 with their shotgun while moving to their weak side go uncalled. I’ve watched a person go to the line in a shoot off and stage their rifle with the hammer back. He looked around to see who was looking then discretely deco led it and said nothing. I lost a lot of respect for those people at that point. But I will say that in the grand scheme of things, it’s a rare occurrence. 

[Major BS Walker Regulator]

I have seen actual cheating on several occasions but it is rarely done. I see rule infractions not called mostly with excuses like, we'll let it slide this time and my favorite, he is a new shooter so I gave him a break when that shooter had been shooting at least once a month for over a year.  99% of SASS shooters try hard to do things wright. That 99% are my friends. The other 1%, not so much.

[Ramblin Gambler]

1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

You've got me a bit baffled here. I agree with you that it's not "Cheating"...but what do you call it?? You know that your equipment is failing and putting you in violation of a rule...and by the sound of it you're not doing anything about it.

 

Seriously...what do you call it?

 

Phantom

 

Good question.  I guess a procedural?  (or whatever penalty is appropriate).  My only point was that CHEATING oughta be reserved for the more serious intentional attempts to defraud.  While it may be technically right, callin folks cheaters for every infraction is not helpful for the game or anyone who plays it. 

 

If you're talking about my SG belt example, I wanna be clear.  I mentioned in another thread on SG belts how I made that part of my check at the LT because it rides up when I'm moving around doing posse chores.  Last month I tried to move it down to where it was touching my gun belt to see if it would stay put better, but that turned out to interfere with drawings the pistols. 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

I have been on a posse where there were several actions by a shooter that were violations of stage instructions and even SASS rules, that were regularly "argued down" by the shooter and family members when those actions were called out, and where family members insisted on timing for the member to override any penalty calls.  The situation was well handled by the posse marshal and match officials, and we have not seen any of the family since.

 

A well earned salute to those corrections made years ago.  

 

Good luck, GJ