Shotgun position in cart?

[Marshal Hangtree]

I'm in the process of converting an old aluminum pier fishing cart into my SASS gear cart.  I need to build a rack to hold my SxS shotgun and the 66, muzzles up of course.  My question is, since the shotgun's muzzle will always be facing skyward while in the cart, is it necessary (i.e. safety violation) for the action to be open while in the cart?  If not, being able to close the action will make my design a lot simpler.

 

Steers y'all.

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

You can leave the action closed if you make a sleeve to cover each gun .

At least that is how it works around here anyways .

[Pat Riot]

6 minutes ago, Rooster Ron Wayne said:

You can leave the action closed if you make a sleeve to cover each gun .

At least that is how it works around here anyways .

What he said...everywhere (unless there’s a range rule stating otherwise)

 

Do a search on “gun socks” or “gun sleeves”. You can get leather ones, canvas, silicone impregnated ones. 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

See what the handbook says

[Marshal Hangtree]

14 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

See what the handbook says

 

I read the handbook, again, before asking the question.  I couldn't find the answer myself, that's why I asked.  If you know where this particular question is covered in the handbook, please tell me where I can find it.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

See what the handbook says

Sounds like RT-FM he sez.......

OLG

[J.S. Sooner, SASS #73526]

Check with the clubs you plan on shooting at, they may have more stringent rules than SASS.  

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

OK, I look'd at'em, and could not find a specific rule.

Call'n PWB.........

 

OLG

[A.J. McDraw, SASS #52088]

I would fabricate your cart so your SxS SG can be placed upwards and open so there are no questions,

in the long run, the game would go smoother for you. I also missed seeing any direction about your

question in the SASS handbook.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

1 hour ago, Marshal Hangtree said:

 

I read the handbook, again, before asking the question.  I couldn't find the answer myself, that's why I asked.  If you know where this particular question is covered in the handbook, please tell me where I can find it.

It's there...in the section that deals with the 170 rule:

 

Long guns shall have their actions open with chambers and magazines empty and

muzzles pointed in a safe direction when transported at a match

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

YUP-it is.......

Page #17

https://www.sassnet.com/Downloads/Shooters Handbook Vers 22_3.pdf

 

OLG

[Marshal Hangtree]

Yep, that's it.  Thanks, Phantom.  I thought that I had heard something to this effect earlier, but when I went to find it in the HB, I couldn't find it under the safe handling of shotgun sections.  I would have never thought to look under the 170 rule.

 

Thanks, Sir.

[Beartrap SASS#57175]

43 minutes ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

It's there...in the section that deals with the 170 rule:

 

Long guns shall have their actions open with chambers and magazines empty and

muzzles pointed in a safe direction when transported at a match

 

And please note there is no exemption listed for "sleeved" firearms.

[Sedalia Dave]

Really simple to get the measurements right for your cart.

 

Place your open SXS barrels against a wall so that all of the barrel is touching the wall and the heel of the stock is touching the floor.  Measure the distance between the wall and the heel and you have the correct dimension for the base of your cart.

 

Placed in the cart this way the action will always stay open.  Rifles 97's and 87's can use the same distance or make it a little shorter and use the additional space to store smaller items.

[High Spade Mikey Wilson]

All of my SxS have a set of dow rods made one for each barrel. Each has a section 2.75" long painted red that will show if there is a round, or a snap cap, in the barrel. The red does not show if the barrel is empty. Been transporting them for years that way at the clubs around me and never had a complaint.

[Doc Shapiro]

Around here, actions open.  I suggest you design your cart with that in mind.

[Ripsaw]

I don't believe the 170 rule applies to firearms in the gun carts. Under that section (p 17) they are discussing handling firearms on the firing line, not in the gun cart.  I see no rule that mandates doubles be open in a gun cart.  Carried around from the loading table to the unloading table, yes.  It would be impossible to adhere to the 170 rule in a gun cart...

[Yul Lose]

4 minutes ago, Ripsaw said:

I don't believe the 170 rule applies to firearms in the gun carts. Under that section (p 17) they are discussing handling firearms on the firing line, not in the gun cart.  I see no rule that mandates doubles be open in a gun cart.  Carried around from the loading table to the unloading table, yes.  It would be impossible to adhere to the 170 rule in a gun cart...

A double is a long gun and it says long guns must be open in the gun cart.

[Ripsaw]

18 minutes ago, Yul Lose said:

A double is a long gun and it says long guns must be open in the gun cart.

I don't see it.  Exact reference please. 

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

22 minutes ago, Ripsaw said:

I don't believe the 170 rule applies to firearms in the gun carts. Under that section (p 17) they are discussing handling firearms on the firing line, not in the gun cart.  I see no rule that mandates doubles be open in a gun cart.  Carried around from the loading table to the unloading table, yes.  It would be impossible to adhere to the 170 rule in a gun cart...

Howdy Ripsaw, that section is more than just the 170.....it specifically says "when transported at a match". As to the OP, if you plan to travel much the safe bet is to design it for action open or have it in a case. Good Luck

 

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

12 minutes ago, Ripsaw said:

I don't see it.  Exact reference please. 

Uhhh...what about the Transporting statement?????

 

oy...

[Yul Lose]

17 minutes ago, Ripsaw said:

I don't see it.  Exact reference please. 

They are being transported in a gun cart.

[Roscoe Regulator]

I designed my cart so the open SxS barrel is supported, hoping the action won't be strained and get beat up, when running the cart on rough ground, even with big wheels.

[Ripsaw]

I'm pretty new to CAS (just a couple years) so I won't argue the point. But the rule about "transporting" is clearly under the 170 rule.  I see no reference in the rules about gun carts. In fact, "gun cart" does not even appear in the handbook if my word search is correct. 

 

For Yule Lose, do people using your enclosed gun carts keep their doubles open while in the cart behind closed doors, moving from stage to stage?  If not, then, under the blanket rule of "transporting" they need to be.  Note there is no exception for long guns in a case. That's why I believe it's a 170/firing line rule. 

 

I guess PWB will have to clarify. 

 

 

[Yul Lose]

9 minutes ago, Ripsaw said:

I'm pretty new to CAS (just a couple years) so I won't argue the point. But the rule about "transporting" is clearly under the 170 rule.  I see no reference in the rules about gun carts. In fact, "gun cart" does not even appear in the handbook if my word search is correct. 

 

For Yule Lose, do people using your enclosed gun carts keep their doubles open while in the cart behind closed doors, moving from stage to stage?  If not, then, under the blanket rule of "transporting" they need to be.  Note there is no exception for long guns in a case. That's why I believe it's a 170/firing line rule. 

 

I guess PWB will have to clarify. 

 

 

I’ve got no idea.

[Phantom, SASS #54973]

17 minutes ago, Ripsaw said:

I'm pretty new to CAS (just a couple years) so I won't argue the point. But the rule about "transporting" is clearly under the 170 rule.  I see no reference in the rules about gun carts. In fact, "gun cart" does not even appear in the handbook if my word search is correct. 

 

For Yule Lose, do people using your enclosed gun carts keep their doubles open while in the cart behind closed doors, moving from stage to stage?  If not, then, under the blanket rule of "transporting" they need to be.  Note there is no exception for long guns in a case. That's why I believe it's a 170/firing line rule. 

 

I guess PWB will have to clarify. 

 

 

The clause references "match".

 

Poor PWB...

[Goody, SASS #26190]

Just a reminder to the OP. Open is not closed. Simply put, if the action is not closed all the way then the action is considered open.

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

57 minutes ago, Ripsaw said:

I guess PWB will have to clarify. 

 

 

Howdy Ripsaw, you won't have to wait, go look at Phantom's next last post. You will see that PW responded with a "like". That means that post is correct

 

1 hour ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

Uhhh...what about the Transporting statement?????

 

oy...  PaleWolf Brunelle, \#2495L and Tracker Jack Daniels,58780 reacted to this

 

[Lost Trail]

1 hour ago, Ripsaw said:

I don't see it.  Exact reference please. 

Here you go:

 

- Long guns shall have their actions open with chambers and magazines empty and
muzzles pointed in a safe direction when transported at a match.

 

I underscored, italicized and bolded the text above for emphasis. And then there's this:

 

trans·port

verb

gerund or present participle: transporting

tranˈspôrt/

1. 1.

   take or carry (people or goods) from one place to another by means of a vehicle, aircraft, or ship.

   "the bulk of freight traffic was transported by truck"

   synonyms:

   convey, carry, take, transfer, move, shift, send, deliver, bear, ship, ferry, haul; informalcart "barges transport the lumber from the mill"

[Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667]

PaleWolf has addressed this before.  The rule on “transported” long guns applies to guns in the cart not just guns being hand carried.  The exception for long guns in a sleeve, scabbard or behind closed doors on a cart is an unwritten one.

 

The prior comment about the definition of “open” not requiring the action to be “wide open” is a good one.  A new shooter came to a match with Guncart 2.0 which was more stable than his first cart that had Auto-ejected his long guns onto a gravel drive the month before, but the shotgun could not be secured with the action all the way open.  We inserted a makeshift chamber flag that prevented the action from closing all the way but allowed the shotgun to sit securely in the vertical rack.

 

I call that “compliant”.

[Ace_of_Hearts]

3 hours ago, Ripsaw said:

I don't believe the 170 rule applies to firearms in the gun carts. Under that section (p 17) they are discussing handling firearms on the firing line, not in the gun cart.  I see no rule that mandates doubles be open in a gun cart.  Carried around from the loading table to the unloading table, yes.  It would be impossible to adhere to the 170 rule in a gun cart...

Ripsaw

How you transport your guns at a match is up to you. There is no reference in the handbook about "gun carts" because one is not required to transport guns at a match. If you wish to put your stuff in a garbage can and drag it around, then that is OK as long as the long guns are transported safely (which is OPEN and EMPTY).

The muzzle orientation (such as up/down/or horizontal) is not specified either. Again - You must transport the long guns OPEN and EMPTY.

You can probably figure out, like most cowboys/cowgirls, that a gun cart is the most practical way of doing this. But I have seem cowboys use saddle bags for their ammo and stuff and carry their long guns in hand. Golf bags have been utilized. ( The cowboy shot a double and simply removed the barrels when putting it in the bag)  But the long guns must be OPEN AND EMPTY.

You must be EXTREMELY careful of sweeping people when picking up or putting away your long guns in anything that doesn't carry them vertically and pointed upward. People will be watching with a close eye.

 

Please don't try and "lawyer" the handbook. It was written by well intended, plain talking cowboys and cowgirls. Carry your guns safely and lets not start making rules about WHAT is meant by the word transport. Just like the word "infringed" it means exactly what it says.

 

Ace

 

[Chancy Shot, SASS #67163]

5 hours ago, Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667 said:

PaleWolf has addressed this before.  The rule on “transported” long guns applies to guns in the cart not just guns being hand carried.  The exception for long guns in a sleeve, scabbard or behind closed doors on a cart is an unwritten one.

Its bad enough to deal with written rules where 5 people can have 6 opinions about what they mean.  Unwritten ones are even worse.

 

Chancy (who's cart has the long guns pointing up and with actions completely open.) Shot

[Ripsaw]

6 hours ago, Lost Trail said:

Here you go:

 

- Long guns shall have their actions open with chambers and magazines empty and
muzzles pointed in a safe direction when transported at a match.

 

I underscored, italicized and bolded the text above for emphasis. And then there's this:

 

trans·port

verb

gerund or present participle: transporting

tranˈspôrt/

1. 1.

   take or carry (people or goods) from one place to another by means of a vehicle, aircraft, or ship.

   "the bulk of freight traffic was transported by truck"

   synonyms:

   convey, carry, take, transfer, move, shift, send, deliver, bear, ship, ferry, haul; informalcart "barges transport the lumber from the mill"

 

Now that the definition of  transport is clear   how does the open long gun rule apply just sitting in a gun cart, not under transport?  So it only needs to be open when transported, i.e., being moved conveyed, carried, taken, transferred, moved, shifted, sent, delivered..etc?  

 

The reason I haven't just given up here is that I believe I've seen it stated somewhere on the wire that long guns in a cart are not required to have actions open, though that is the preferred condition.  The other reason is that the rule, relying on the definition of transport, means guns in their cases, carried from the vehicle to the gun cart, or to the game bay,  or even while being "transported' inside the vehicle on match property, would have to comply.   There is a point that long guns must comply with this rule, and  "while being transported" in the Merriam Webster context  is not the rule.  If, indeed, it is, then  at what point does this rule begin to apply? And where is that stated? 

 

I've searched the forum and can't see where PWB has addressed this before.  Anybody got a reference? I see he "liked" Phantom's remarks, is that how rulings typically come down? 

 

Again, not trying to be ornery or "lawyer" the rules, just trying to understand. 

 

Defense rests...

 

[Beartrap SASS#57175]

You claim to not be trying to "lawyer" the rules, but you ARE doing a pretty good job of it.

If I ship something It's being "transported" from the moment I let go of it until it gets to It's final destination. When the truck stops for a traffic signal it doesn't stop the "transporting".

You've had it pointed out in the rule book, had it explained to you and still want to argue the point.

Open the actions from the time you arrive at the range until you leave except when allowed to close them on the firing line and you won't have any problems. Isn't hard to do or remember.

I respectfully suggest you reread the rule book in It's entirety several times and take some RO classes.

p.s. sometimes you DON'T want to see PWB's response!

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

25 minutes ago, Ripsaw said:

 

Now that the definition of  transport is clear   how does the open long gun rule apply just sitting in a gun cart, not under transport?  So it only needs to be open when transported, i.e., being moved conveyed, carried, taken, transferred, moved, shifted, sent, delivered..etc?  

 

The reason I haven't just given up here is that I believe I've seen it stated somewhere on the wire that long guns in a cart are not required to have actions open, though that is the preferred condition.  The other reason is that the rule, relying on the definition of transport, means guns in their cases, carried from the vehicle to the gun cart, or to the game bay,  or even while being "transported' inside the vehicle on match property, would have to comply.   There is a point that long guns must comply with this rule, and  "while being transported" in the Merriam Webster context  is not the rule.  If, indeed, it is, then  at what point does this rule begin to apply? And where is that stated? 

 

I've searched the forum and can't see where PWB has addressed this before.  Anybody got a reference? I see he "liked" Phantom's remarks, is that how rulings typically come down? 

 

Again, not trying to be ornery or "lawyer" the rules, just trying to understand. 

 

Defense rests...

 

Well pardner you just ain't gonna find what yer lookin for, so don't hold yer breath. The rules talk about safe handling and muzzle control, and if you don't think your transporting while yer dragging yer gun  cart around I just don't know what to tell you. Just because you think you've seen on the wire that it's ok to close the action, maybe by a  local club in the desert as long as it has a full length cover, but not within the rules. And yes, usually when we see PW "like" a comment he is agreeing with it so he doesn't have to type for two pages You don't need to wait on a ruling to come down why?? because it's already covered in the rules Good Luck