WTC

[Chief Rick]

Shooter is shooting in the Cowboy category.

Shooting order is rifle, then pistols, then shotgun.

1. ATB with rifle engage targets in following order: 1,2,2,1,3,3,1,4,4,1 OR 4,3,3,4,2,2,4,1,1,4. Make rifle safe.

2. Engage pistol targets from door opening with first round on stationary target, then engage plate rack until down, then put any remaining rounds on the stationary target. Holster.

3. With shotgun engage 2 shotgun targets from left of door and 2 shotgun targets from right of door, can start on either side of door. Can make up shotgun targets at either shotgun shooting position.

 

Rifle targets engaged correctly.

Pistol targets engaged correctly but shooter doesn't fire last round on dump target (hammer IS DOWN on fired round).

Shooter holsters pistol and moves to shotgun, picks up shotgun, loads two rounds and closes shotgun as TO is telling him he still has one unfired round in pistol.

Shooter holds shotgun (closed with two rounds) in left hand, pulls pistol and shoots & hits pistol stationary target from wrong position.

 

What's the call?

 

I believe SDQ for having two loaded guns in hand.

 

Could shooter have simply opened shotgun and layed it down, then moved back to appropriate position to fire pistol?

 

Or would the live rounds need to be shucked to prevent a penalty?

 

Probably would have been faster to just incur one miss from unfired round and continue, but...

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

Sorry, I mis read the post. 

[Chief Rick]

1 minute ago, Smokestack said:

It’s a SDQ as soon as the pistol left the shooters hand with a live  round under the hammer. 

Pistol did not leave shooter's hand with a live round under the hammer - "hammer IS DOWN on fired round" when holstered.

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

18 minutes ago, Chief Rick said:

Pistol did not leave shooter's hand with a live round under the hammer - "hammer IS DOWN on fired round" when holstered. 

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

apparently I still can’t read. 

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

3 minutes ago, Smokestack said:

It’s a SDQ as soon as the pistol left the shooters hand with a live  round under the hammer. 

 

Hammer is not down on a live round

 

"...(hammer IS DOWN on fired round)..." and therefore safe to reholster.

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

Just now, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

 

Hammer is not down on a live round

 

"...(hammer IS DOWN on fired round)..." and therefore safe to reholster.

LOL, well, that changes everything. I guess I should open my eyes all the way when I read. Haha. Sorry. 

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

I believe this would be a minor safety for rounds left in a shotgun while another gun type is shot. 

[Bootless Bob]

One P for shooting from the wrong position or two loaded guns in hand. 

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

Personally, I won’t call a shooter back to another gun once the shotgun is loaded because too many times, I’ve seen them set it down with live rounds or round chambered and that is an immediate SDQ. 

 

In this scenario, it went from a miss to a minor safety and a procedural. Some things are better left alone. 

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

37 minutes ago, Chief Rick said:

Shooter is shooting in the Cowboy category. Category is irrelevant for the scenario described

Shooting order is rifle, then pistols, then shotgun.

1. ATB with rifle engage targets in following order: 1,2,2,1,3,3,1,4,4,1 OR 4,3,3,4,2,2,4,1,1,4. Make rifle safe.

2. Engage pistol targets from door opening with first round on stationary target, then engage plate rack until down, then put any remaining rounds on the stationary target. Holster.

3. With shotgun engage 2 shotgun targets from left of door and 2 shotgun targets from right of door, can start on either side of door. Can make up shotgun targets at either shotgun shooting position.

 

 

Rifle targets engaged correctly.

Pistol targets engaged correctly but shooter doesn't fire last round on dump target (hammer IS DOWN on fired round).

Shooter holsters pistol and moves to shotgun, picks up shotgun, loads two rounds and closes shotgun as TO is telling him he still has one unfired round in pistol.

Shooter holds shotgun (closed with two rounds) in left hand, pulls pistol and shoots & hits pistol stationary target from wrong position.

 

What's the call?

 

I believe SDQ for having two loaded guns in hand. This

 

Could shooter have simply opened shotgun and layed it down, then moved back to appropriate position to fire pistol? The shotgun may not leave the shooter's hands with rounds in the chambers

 

Or would the live rounds need to be shucked to prevent a penalty? Yes

 

Probably would have been faster to just incur one miss from unfired round and continue, and a P for failure to shoot the required number of rounds but...

 

 

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

4 minutes ago, Bootless Bob said:

One P for shooting from the wrong position or two loaded guns in hand. 

The progressive penalty you are referencing applies to shooting out of category. No category can have a loaded long gun in hand while shooting revolvers or vice-versa. 

[Chief Rick]

3 minutes ago, Smokestack said:

Personally, I won’t call a shooter back to another gun once the shotgun is loaded because too many times, I’ve seen them set it down with live rounds or round chambered and that is an immediate SDQ. 

That's my thought as well - SG would have to have been opened and emptied prior to drawing pistol.  Simply opening it and laying it down would result in SDQ as the SxS SG is considered to be loaded when the loaded shells are in the chamber.

[Palmetto Traveller]

We had a very similar situation at a match in GA last weekend. Shooter holstered second pistol with hammer down on fired round, moved to next position, picked up SG and loaded it. Spotters told shooter he had one more round to fire in pistol so the shooter laid down the SG with rounds chambered but SG open, went back to previous position and fired last round then returned to SG position , picked it up, closed and fired. Only penalty given was a minor safety.

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

4 minutes ago, Palmetto Traveler said:

We had a very similar situation at a match in GA last weekend. Shooter holstered second pistol with hammer down on fired round, moved to next position, picked up SG and loaded it. Spotters told shooter he had one more round to fire in pistol so the shooter laid down the SG with rounds chambered but SG open, went back to previous position and fired last round then returned to SG position , picked it up, closed and fired. Only penalty given was a minor safety.

That was a SDQ.  The moment the shotgun left her hands with a live round in a chamber. 

[Palmetto Traveller]

The shooter was a male and definitely someone who should have known better.

[Bootless Bob]

16 minutes ago, Smokestack said:

The progressive penalty you are referencing applies to shooting out of category. No category can have a loaded long gun in hand while shooting revolvers or vice-versa. 

I wasn't thinking about a progressive penalty. He shot from the wrong position which equals a P.   He also had two loaded guns in hand, which I though was a P penalty too but maybe its not.  (I might be thinking of gunfighters being the only ones allowed to hold two loaded pistols).  So what is the reference for the penalty, if any, for holding a loaded shotgun and pistol ?

[Kirk James]

Wasn't it correctable before he picked up the shotgun?  It seems like it is a safety as soon as he picked up the shotgun and a procedural for the shot in the wrong location.

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

3 minutes ago, Bootless Bob said:

I wasn't thinking about a progressive penalty. He shot from the wrong position which equals a P.   He also had two loaded guns in hand, which I though was a P penalty too but maybe its not.  (I might be thinking of gunfighters being the only ones allowed to hold two loaded pistols).  So what is the reference for the penalty, if any, for holding a loaded shotgun and pistol ?

This says on carrier or in magazine, but if a long gun action is not empty when the next gun is fired, it’s an MSV. 

[Bootless Bob]

2 minutes ago, Smokestack said:

"Empty or live round in magazine or carrier of the long gun in which it was loaded after the next firearm is fired, or
if last firearm, put down on the unloading table."    

Don't think that applies.  It was in the chamber, not magazine or carrier and if I understand the scenario the pistols were done fired then the shotgun was fired.

 

D

2 minutes ago, Smokestack said:

 

 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Don't believe there is ANY penalty for what was done with shotgun.  Shooter maintained contact with the loaded shotgun the entire time from when he picked it up, through holding it in one hand while shooting last pistol shot, to when they shouldered and shot their shotgun rounds,   If there was good muzzle control the entire time, there is NOTHING to call.   The shooter did not move, so the gun did not need to be broken open to stand in one position, redraw and safely fire the second pistol one time, reholster and then shoot shotgun.

 

Shooter would get a P for taking last pistol shot from out of proper position (at one of the SP positions, not the SP2 position), and a congratulations for not breaking the 170 with the loaded shotgun.  We allow duelist shooting with an empty shotgun in hand, and we penalize only if the shooter looses control of that shotgun muzzle.   Same logic should apply here.   Don't be making up "new" rules!

 

Someone find and cite the page if you find a rule about shooter can't hold two loaded guns (as long as they are not BOTH LOADED revolvers for non-gunfighters).

 

Just a P.

Good luck, GJ

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

32 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

Probably would have been faster to just incur one miss from unfired round and continue, and a P for failure to shoot the required number of rounds but...

 

There is no P for failure to shoot the required number of rounds, just a 5 second penalty for an unfired round.

 

Randy

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

When shooter discarded his shotgun after shooting his SHOTGUN string with it, was it open and empty?  Then no penalty.

 

(That pistol was his PREVIOUS gun, not his next gun.  He had not fired shotgun yet, so he was stilll on his pistol string with one shot to go!)

 

This shooter had UNTIL THE FIRST SHOTGUN SHOT WAS FIRED to complete or correct his pistol string and pistol condition (safely reholstered).  Grabbing the shotgun and even loading the shotgun does not end his pistol string, according to our rule set.

 

 Good luck, GJ

 

 

[Assassin]

I agree with Smokestack. If a shooter has already grabbed the next gun and is all ready committed, let them go. Things can only go down hill from there. They might take a 5 second miss, that's much better than a SDQ.

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

7 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

There is no P for failure to shoot the required number of rounds, just a 5 second penalty for an unfired round.

 

Randy

10- SECOND PENALTIES 

Procedural Penalties 

Any unintentional procedural errors caused by ―brain fade, confusion, ignorance, or mistakes (not to exceed one for any given stage). 

• Failure to attempt to fire a firearm. 

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

Just now, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

10- SECOND PENALTIES 

Procedural Penalties 

Any unintentional procedural errors caused by ―brain fade, confusion, ignorance, or mistakes (not to exceed one for any given stage). 

• Failure to attempt to fire a firearm. 

That means failing to attempt to fire a firearm, not a round of ammo. It’s for if you skip the whole gun all together. 

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

4 minutes ago, Smokestack said:

That means failing to attempt to fire a firearm, not a round of ammo. It’s for if you skip the whole gun all together. 

 

I'm not ready to concede that just yet. The shooter holstered the gun before the string was finished and made no attempt to engage the target/fire the 10th round.

 

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

Just now, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

 

I'm not ready to concede that just yet. The shooter holstered the gun before the string was finished and made no attempt to fire the 10th round.

I’m sure PaleWolf will be coming along soon. Meanwhile, you can run the scenario through the miss flow chart yourself. It will ask if all the targets that were hit were hit in the correct order. 

[Wyatt]

Only a P for shooting out of category with two loaded firearms in hand. 

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

Just now, Smokestack said:

I’m sure PaleWolf will be coming along soon. Meanwhile, you can run the scenario through the miss flow chart yourself. It will ask if all the targets that were hit were hit in the correct order. 

 

Doesn't matter. The last pistol target was not engaged.

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

1 minute ago, Wyatt said:

Only a P for shooting out of category with two loaded firearms in hand. 

And if he were a gunfighter, no call? 

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

1 minute ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

 

Doesn't matter. The last pistol target was not engaged.

Can you show me the rule you are referring to? 

[Wyatt]

1 minute ago, Smokestack said:

And if he were a gunfighter, no call? 

 

A P for shooting pistol from wrong position 

[Bootless Bob]

2 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

 

Doesn't matter. The last pistol target was not engaged.

 

Yes it was according to the OP  " Shooter holds shotgun (closed with two rounds) in left hand, pulls pistol and shoots & hits pistol stationary target from wrong position. "