WTC, Josey Wales

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Our annual Josey Wales Shoot.  Josey shooters uses a single shot big bore or lever action rifle, no shotgun, and 4 pistols. 2 pistols are holstered and 2 are staged. The stage is also written so the regular cowboy shooters shoot R&P and shotgun targets. The Josey shooters shoot the R&P as P&P targets.  Shooting sequence is not important.

From position one with your first set of pistols shoot the Rifle/pistol targets in XX order for 10 rounds. Move to position 2 with your second set of pistols shoot the pistol targets same as the previous rifle/pistol targets for 10 rounds.

Shooter at position one pulls pistols and shoots the Pistol/pistol targets for 10 rounds.  Moves to position 2 and shoots the Rifle/Pistol targets for 10 rounds. No misses.

So P for engaging targets incorrectly, but some said 20 misses! What says the wire?

Ike

[Flying W Ramrod]

Did all the steel go clang with the bullets from the proper guns? If so, no misses.

Did the targets get hit per the stage instructions? If so, no P. If not, P.

Sounds like, in the OP, all steel went clang with the proper guns, but from the wrong locations. P with no misses would be my call.

 

[Major BS Walker Regulator]

20 misses. He shot ten rounds and failed to hit the correct targets then shot ten more rounds and failed to hit the correct target

[Flying W Ramrod]

Which targets did he fail to hit with is pistols? The Pistol only targets or the Rifle/Pistol targets?

 

[J-BAR #18287]

At this point, Josey  spits and scowls...

 

[Augustus Goodnight]

OK, If I understand the O/P. He did it backwards. Shot the RP Targets when he should have shot the P Targets and vice versa.

 

No Procedural. A miss can't cause a Procedural.

 

20 Misses. Hitting the wrong target type is the same as putting them in the dirt.

 

 

[Rye Miles #13621]

Shooting the targets out of order with no misses.............I say clean with a "P"

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

REF: RO? p.? - "Josey Wales Category" regs.

 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

PLUS ONE to J BAR

 

WHAT?? May I ask, are you doing with a Rifle in a Josey Wales match.  Josey Wales is shot with ALL Pistols (or should be).  The only long gun is perhaps a Shotgun.  And since Josey Wales is not a recognized "type" with "rules" established, the stage was at the very least very poorly written. 

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

The shooter was the only one who shot the pistols/targets in the wrong sequence.  We shoot long range rifles at targets about 25 yards downrange. Usually 4 rounds for single shot and 6 rounds for lever action big bore. Josey didn't use a shotgun. He did shoot a single shot big bore. Besides its Josey Wales so rules are a local thing.  The stages had no "P's" other than the one shooter who again shot the correct target sequence and rounds with no misses, but the targets were shot from the wrong position.

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Another way to noodle this is if a Cowboy shoots the rifle targets with his pistols from position 1, moves to position 2 and shoots the pistol targets with his rifle.

Targets shot in correct order, no misses.

[McCandless]

Since there

2 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Josey shooters uses a single shot big bore or lever action rifle, no shotgun, and 4 pistols. 2 pistols are holstered and 2 are staged. The stage is also written so the regular cowboy shooters shoot R&P and shotgun targets. The Josey shooters shoot the R&P as P&P targets.  Shooting sequence is not important.

 

I'm a bit confused, from the original post, it seems like there are no rifle targets, only pistol and pistol targets.  If this is so, P no misses. 

(if SASS rules apply to this...)

 

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

The stage is set up like any cowboy stage, 4 rifle targets at rifle distances, 4 pistol targets at pistol distances, 2 big bore rifle targets, 1 16" round well casing pipe 3/8' thick at 25 yrds. And 4 shotgun targets. Cowboys shoot normal pistol/rife shotgun scenario.

 

Josey shooters shoot pistol targets with one set of pistols, and the Cowboy Rifle targets with the second set of pistols, no shotgun, and then X rounds on the big bore targets. 

 

SASS rules apply in regards to shooting targets out of order, P, and then are the shots placed on the targets shot out of order are they misses.

Ike

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

1 hour ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Another way to noodle this is if a Cowboy shoots the rifle targets with his pistols from position 1, moves to position 2 and shoots the pistol targets with his rifle.

Targets shot in correct order, no misses.

In this case if you're talking about a regular Cowboy match this would be 20 misses and no P.

 

Randy

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

2 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

PLUS ONE to J BAR

 

WHAT?? May I ask, are you doing with a Rifle in a Josey Wales match.  Josey Wales is shot with ALL Pistols (or should be).  The only long gun is perhaps a Shotgun.  And since Josey Wales is not a recognized "type" with "rules" established, the stage was at the very least very poorly written. 

 

Ding ding ding! And a tug on the steam whistle!

 

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

56 minutes ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

In this case if you're talking about a regular Cowboy match this would be 20 misses and no P.

 

Randy

This

[McCandless]

2 hours ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

The stage is set up like any cowboy stage, 4 rifle targets at rifle distances, 4 pistol targets at pistol distances, 2 big bore rifle targets, 1 16" round well casing pipe 3/8' thick at 25 yrds. And 4 shotgun targets. Cowboys shoot normal pistol/rife shotgun scenario.

 

Josey shooters shoot pistol targets with one set of pistols, and the Cowboy Rifle targets with the second set of pistols, no shotgun, and then X rounds on the big bore targets. 

 

SASS rules apply in regards to shooting targets out of order, P, and then are the shots placed on the targets shot out of order are they misses.

Ike

Ok, unless your match has otherwise stated rules, (SASS rules don't apply here because all the rifle targets are supposed to be shot with pistols)   For the Josey shooter, P no Misses.   Your rifle targets are the Big Bore Targets.  "Rifle/Pistol" targets is a poor designator.  In a Josey match, they are pistol targets.  They are only rifle targets for a SASS shooter.  And why 20 misses?  He shot the "pistol/pistol" target with pistols, just out of order for a P.  So, he earned a P with his first shot, after that...

 

 

[Marauder SASS #13056]

One of my most unfavorite rules. 

 

Before 2001, a miss was a miss and "brain fade" was a P.  A hit on a target was hit.  So hitting the wrong target could get you a P.

 

Then some folks said that hitting the wrong target should be penalized more than merely a 10 second penalty for a P.  So they changed the rules so that it would be a P plus a miss for any target hit with the wrong firearm.  This could give a nice penalty much greater than a spirit of the game for a brain fade such as in this case.  They did this because they feared people would not give the Spirit of the Game penalty when it should be given.

 

After a year of that nonsense, they realized it was too much, so they dropped the 10 second penalty and clarified that a miss could not cause a P.  Since now a hit can be a miss, so it cannot be a P.  Isn't that much clearer?

 

And that is still where we are with the rules. 

 

So a mental mistake such as this is penalized 20X5=100 seconds added. 

That of course make little sense to me, but that met the requirement of some that like to penalize folks strongly for small, non-safety mistakes.

 

And we ended up with a flow chart and few more pages of rules.  And it is now SO much clearer. . .

 

But as stated for a mistake of this sort, the shooter should be awarded 20 misses per the rules.

[Concho Billy]

Clean with a P, "Buzzards gotta eat same as worms....."

[El Hombre]

P and no misses

[Sgt. Saywut]

OK, so after all this discussion, which IS it - 20 misses and no P, or one P and no misses?  Some of the responses are a bit fuzzy, but I see six clear votes for a P and no misses, and five clear votes for 20 misses and no P. 

 

I was thinking of trying Josey Wales shooting at some point, but I wonder if the arguing over the rules might not be more entertaining, and a lot more confusing, than the actual shooting...

[High Plains Hud SASS#64232]

Using flow chart. Did shooter hit all correct type of targets using legally aquired ammo. Yes. 20 pistol targets if shooting josey.  Did shooter hit targets in correct order . No. Access procedure.

One P no misses.

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Since Josey Wales is an unrecognized category the rules are up to the local club. Our club shoots a lot of big bore rifle stuff. Our long range is 700 yards and we have 5 to 6 2 day matches for it. We shoot an annual each year around Josey which involves 4 pistols, no shotgun and a big bore single shot black powder for the category Josey Wales". We also have "sort of Josey which allows the shooters to use big bore lever action and smokeless powder. Categories are separated for men and women. We get more shooters this way.

The stages are written so the posse is made up of Josey and regular cowboy shooters. Thus the rifle cowboy targets are also pistol targets for the Josey shooters. And yes they are shooting out to 35' with their pistols.  We've been dong this for 7 years and this is the first tme we have had a WTC for a Josey shooter. Brain fart on the shooters and TO's part.

 

We also do an annual Tom Horn category for our annual regional match. Two Pistols, big bore rifle, main match cowboy rifle, and shotgun. Separated by Bp and smokeless, and single shot and lever. 50% of the attendees sign up for Tom Horn. They do so because no one else offers "something different" for a change. As in getting to shoot big bore stuff in a match.

 

All SASS rules apply.

 

We scored it as a P only. Fairly new shooter and we wanted him to learn from his mistake. TO was embarrassed and we moved on.

Ike

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Yes, BUT.  Before you can use the flow chart, you need the definitions.

 

A miss is defined as not hitting the correct type of target.  So then as you go through the flow chart, it changes.

 

So it could be 20 misses. from what I understand from the stage layout, hits on the wrong "type" target would misses since they were not the correct type target. 

 

Perhaps since some were called R/P, so those may not be misses, but since they were shot out of sequence, a P for that.

 

So depending on that, it could be 20 misses, or 10 misses and a P.

 

See what I mean about it being so much clearer with the rule since 2001?

[Smoky Pistols]

*throws up his hands and walks away, muttering, "and then we declared war on the white man!*

[Lead Monger]

Come on folks. It's a P with no misses.

[Ramblin Gambler]

P no misses.  For the JW shooter they were all pistol targets.  A good analog for cowboy shooters would be if you had a split pistol stage and shot the targets from the wrong spot.  That would only be a P too. 

 

Unless your club has a rule that the staged pistols must be used for the futherest targets, I don't see how you can argue for 20 misses. 

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Shooters choice on which set and where the second set of pistols are staged.

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

One club I shoot at, Josey Wales shooters use for holsters simply because there aren't staging tables and there's a lot of down range movement. So in that case, which pistols are pistols and which are rifles?

[Imis Twohofon,SASS # 46646]

I shoot JW, have had this happen to me before,lost 100 sec and still donr understand the OP question.

 

Imis 5 pistols for JW , dont got to show you no stinking shotguns

[Rye Miles #13621]

The last time I shot Josey Wales I did it with 5 pistols as a Duelist! I had to go home and soak my thumb in ice water! Never again!

[Marauder SASS #13056]

On 4/17/2018 at 6:33 PM, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

The stage is also written so the regular cowboy shooters shoot R&P and shotgun targets.

 

Since this was apparently a general match that included Josey Wales, I think all shooters were required to shoot per the "rifle instructions."  So at that point, if the shooter did not shoo/hit the targets designated for the rifle, the rules would require those to be counted as misses.  Since some targets were designated as R/P, I would assume that they could be counted as hits at that point.  That would depend on the exact stage design.

 

I too would prefer calling the P as in the old days, but that is not what I understand the rules now require. 

[Ramblin Gambler]

I don't think so marauder.  He said JW shooters had a big bore rifle target.  So they were kinda like a cody-dixon shooter, except that they engaged everyone elses rifle targets with pistols too.  Like a cross between how our club does Wild Bunch and Cody-Dixon. 

 

[Marauder SASS #13056]

On 4/17/2018 at 6:33 PM, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

From position one with your first set of pistols shoot the Rifle/pistol targets in XX order for 10 rounds. Move to position 2 with your second set of pistols shoot the pistol targets same as the previous rifle/pistol targets for 10 rounds.

Shooter at position one pulls pistols and shoots the Pistol/pistol targets for 10 rounds.  Moves to position 2 and shoots the Rifle/Pistol targets for 10 rounds. No misses.

It is truly difficult to say definitely with what was originally posted - and without actually seeing the stage. But it does say to first shoot the Rifle/pistol targets.  Then shoot the pistol targets in the same manner.  But the shooter first shot the pistol targets rather than the Rifle/pistol targets as instructed.

 

Sometimes we use the same targets for both.  For example, we shoot the rifle at a longer range, then move up and shoot the same targets with the pistols.  If that were the case, it changes a lot compared to having a separate set of targets.  I cannot really tell from this description.

 

If they were a separate set of targets, the first 10 rounds would have t be counted as misses, would they not?  He was supposed to be shooting at  rifle targets at that point, but engaged with pistols as per normal Josey Wales.  If a regular shooter shot the rifle at those targets, it would be the same ruling - 10 misses.