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Angles and Belly Buttons...


Phantom, SASS #54973

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1 hour ago, Smoky Pistols said:

Yep--levity---that's what this thread needed!

It aint  life or death or politics.

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12 hours ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

I don’t see the empty case ever becoming a no call, and I don’t really think it should. I just wish we could be honest about it and stop calling it a safety violation. It is a procedure which we are to follow, not following it should be a procedural violation. If you make it a no call, it would take about 5 minutes for the double barrel shooters to decide that opening and shucking the last pair is a waste of time. 

Perhaps you have hit the nail on the head Smokestack.  Empty case=Procedural  Live round on carrier=Minor Safety   Live round in chamber=Stage DQ

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10 hours ago, Smokestack SASS#87384 said:

Bad coaching IS grounds for a re-shoot. 

Reshoots are not awarded for ammunition or firearm malfunctions.  However, if there is a range failure (failure of props, failure of the timer, or Range Officer interference) beyond the competitor’s control, a reshoot MAY be granted.   

 

Bad/improper coaching IS NOT automatically grounds for a re-shoot unless the TO interferes with the progress of the shooter through the stage.  There is no penalty for lack of proper coaching either.  Depending on the situation, the shooter MAY be granted a re-shoot.

 

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10 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

How do you call a spirit of the game on someone for NOT doing something that the rules DON'T require him to do?  What?  you want to get rid of the penalty for empty rounds, then what is the point of shucking?  If empties aren't an issue (that's what YOU said) why do you care if they're in the shotgun?

 

A “Spirit of the Game” infraction occurs when a competitor willfully or intentionally disregards the stage instructions in order to obtain a competitive advantage. 

 

To discard a long gun requires that it be open and empty.  To discard a long gun without making clear is an SOG if the intent was to gain a competitive advantage.  Not shucking meets this element.  On top of everything else, the open part has been watered down requiring the shooter to show clear if the action is closed.    Perhaps the empty on the carrier rule still needs to be in place but it's time to address empties on a carrier as a "P" instead of a MSV.

 

10 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Please don't take this the wrong way, but that collection of words between "I get your point....or counters" isn't a sentence, doesn't form a coherent thought, and doesn't refute my concern.  It's indisputable that if the rule were changed as you suggest, TO's would have to make a determination about whether it's a live round that needs to be cleared, or an expended round that doesn't matter. 

 

Perhaps I should have added a i.e. in front of my example of FAs discarded port down.  I do get your point but TO's are not perfect and brass can be missed.  Should the shooter be awarded a MSV for an empty in the receiver?  I think not.  Perhaps not a no call but no more than a P for not clearing the FA.  

 

The TO's job is to safely assist the shooter through the stage.  If you don't catch the round on the carrier and the shooter fires the next FA, simply bring the shooter back to the FA after the course of fire to assess the brass whether live or fired and award the penalty.  The split second you had to help correct the situation is gone so you have to move on.  Don't get me wrong, I am not for a minute advocating that the long guns can or should be discarded in violation of the open and clear rule.  

 

10 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I fundamentally disagree with hour characterization of what a TO does.  A TO is supposed to safely 'assist' the shooter through the stage.  I'm not going to shoot the stage for them, but if I can help them avoid a penalty I'm going to do that, and I'm going to do my best to be in a position to be helpful by observing and staying close.

 

I agree with you on the duties of the TO and your obligation to the shooter.  I do however believe the fired case does not present a safety issue.  Perhaps still a penalty, just not a safety.  

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7 hours ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

Reshoots are not awarded for ammunition or firearm malfunctions.  However, if there is a range failure (failure of props, failure of the timer, or Range Officer interference) beyond the competitor’s control, a reshoot MAY be granted.   

 

Bad/improper coaching IS NOT automatically grounds for a re-shoot unless the TO interferes with the progress of the shooter through the stage.  There is no penalty for lack of proper coaching either.  Depending on the situation, the shooter MAY be granted a re-shoot.

 

Bad coaching can easily impede the progress of a shooter and therefore be grounds for a reshoot.  For example, shooter finishes 10 rounds from his pistols, TO says you have one left, shooter says no I don't, TO says yes you do, shooter proceeds to rifle and continues, subsequently pistols are checked and there is no round left.

6 hours ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

 

A “Spirit of the Game” infraction occurs when a competitor willfully or intentionally disregards the stage instructions in order to obtain a competitive advantage. 

 

To discard a long gun requires that it be open and empty.  To discard a long gun without making clear is an SOG if the intent was to gain a competitive advantage.  Not shucking meets this element.  On top of everything else, the open part has been watered down requiring the shooter to show clear if the action is closed.    Perhaps the empty on the carrier rule still needs to be in place but it's time to address empties on a carrier as a "P" instead of a MSV.

 

 

Perhaps I should have added a i.e. in front of my example of FAs discarded port down.  I do get your point but TO's are not perfect and brass can be missed.  Should the shooter be awarded a MSV for an empty in the receiver?  I think not.  Perhaps not a no call but no more than a P for not clearing the FA.  

 

The TO's job is to safely assist the shooter through the stage.  If you don't catch the round on the carrier and the shooter fires the next FA, simply bring the shooter back to the FA after the course of fire to assess the brass whether live or fired and award the penalty.  The split second you had to help correct the situation is gone so you have to move on.  Don't get me wrong, I am not for a minute advocating that the long guns can or should be discarded in violation of the open and clear rule.  

 

 

I agree with you on the duties of the TO and your obligation to the shooter.  I do however believe the fired case does not present a safety issue.  Perhaps still a penalty, just not a safety.  

Actually, no a long gun does not need to be discarded open, and you're advocating removing the requirement that it be empty, so that negates both conditions in your first sentence.

 

Let's look at your second sentence, you're saying that if a shooter discarded a long gun without making it clear you would issue a SOG 30 second penalty, but you're also advocating we remove the MSV 10 second penalty for discarding a long gun that isn't clear?  I'm not sure that's consistent. 

 

I agree with your last point, I don't believe empties represent a safety issue either, perhaps a P as Smokestack suggested, but it's more a labeling issue from that perspective.

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1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Actually, no a long gun does not need to be discarded open, and you're advocating removing the requirement that it be empty, so that negates both conditions in your first sentence.

 

This seems odd to me, since it takes time to open the gun and would save time not to. It also is inconsistent with needing to have action open on the way to the unloading table, leaving the distinct possibility of a SV, if not alert. Lastly, the gun would have to be shown clear when off the clock.

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1 minute ago, Roscoe Regulator said:

This seems odd to me, since it takes time to open the gun and would save time not to. It also is inconsistent with needing to have action open on the way to the unloading table, leaving the distinct possibility of a SV, if not alert. Lastly, the gun would have to be shown clear when off the clock.

This rule change happened a year or so ago.  Long guns have to be clear, but not necessarily open.  If the action of a long gun is closed, the TO should ask the shooter to open it and verify it is clear after the shooter has finished the stage.

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              HELP....I'm Lost.

5ae1df3f9c6dd_LostinaMaze.png.572ddd6974a8c4ec6de0ef86c2120ff1.png

 

I need to find my way back to the thread about Angles and Belly Buttons.

Somewhere along the way, it took a turn and got off track.

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On 4/22/2018 at 4:50 PM, Chance Arizona said:


Hi All, I have wondered if this holster was the correct degree of angle, could someone please confirm this and if not I will address this problem asap 

20180422_163915.jpg

If someone else responded to you, I missed it. Your holster is well within 30 degrees. 

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2 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

Bad coaching can easily impede the progress of a shooter and therefore be grounds for a reshoot.  For example, shooter finishes 10 rounds from his pistols, TO says you have one left, shooter says no I don't, TO says yes you do, shooter proceeds to rifle and continues, subsequently pistols are checked and there is no round left.

 

Actually, no a long gun does not need to be discarded open, and you're advocating removing the requirement that it be empty, so that negates both conditions in your first sentence.

 

Let's look at your second sentence, you're saying that if a shooter discarded a long gun without making it clear you would issue a SOG 30 second penalty, but you're also advocating we remove the MSV 10 second penalty for discarding a long gun that isn't clear?  I'm not sure that's consistent. 

 

I agree with your last point, I don't believe empties represent a safety issue either, perhaps a P as Smokestack suggested, but it's more a labeling issue from that perspective.

  • Improper coaching MAY be grounds for a reshoot, it is not automatic.  Lack of coaching can be far more detrimental to the shooter and is not grounds for a reshoot.
  • I am not advocating removal of the requirement that the long gun be clear so please don't put words in my mouth.  
  • A SOG should be issued if the shooter discards the FA with the intent to gain an advantage over the other contestants.  Please don't cherry pick my statements to further your agenda.
  • An empty in a receiver is not a safety issue.   A P, yes, and yes it may be semantics but if everyone wants clarification, why not call it what it is?
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On 4/23/2018 at 9:40 PM, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:

Perhaps ridiculed isn't the right word but I personally have been harassed/badgered the rest of the match after I made a call that wasn't popular. 

 

Holster angles are violated freely and 170° holstering violations pretty normal.  Spend some time watching videos in slow motion to get the drift.

 

The safety police have added rules in the name of safety that aren't consistent with other shooting sports.  Case and point-the basketball rule.  In the early days, we shot on the move regularly and safely.  I've seen more falls and near disasters when folks try to stop and get off balance when adhering to the basketball rule or trying to shoot stretched out around a prop than moving with a cocked gun.

 

Empty cases on the carrier of a long gun is another redundant rule.  If the TO determines the case is empty, no call.  Live, penalty assessed.  

 

 

 

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51 minutes ago, Jailhouse Jim, SASS #13104 said:
  • Improper coaching MAY be grounds for a reshoot, it is not automatic.  Lack of coaching can be far more detrimental to the shooter and is not grounds for a reshoot.
  • I am not advocating removal of the requirement that the long gun be clear so please don't put words in my mouth.  
  • A SOG should be issued if the shooter discards the FA with the intent to gain an advantage over the other contestants.  Please don't cherry pick my statements to further your agenda.
  • An empty in a receiver is not a safety issue.   A P, yes, and yes it may be semantics but if everyone wants clarification, why not call it what it is?

I have no agenda.  I'm not necessarily opposed to removing the penalty or relabeling it as a P.  I'm simply following your suggestions to some possible conclusions and you're differing with me as to whether those conclusions could happen.  

 

 

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A SOG should be issued if the shooter discards the FA with the intent to gain an advantage over the other contestants.  Please don't cherry pick my statements to further your agenda.

 

Seriously?? So if I discard my rifle empty with the lever closed and its really fast your gonna give me a SOG penalty??

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10 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

I agree with your last point, I don't believe empties represent a safety issue either, perhaps a P as Smokestack suggested, but it's more a labeling issue from that perspective.

I agree.  Have long advocated for the "MSV" to be more than the same 10 seconds as the Procedural.  How about 20 seconds...   BTW, it used to be 30 seconds... long, long ago... 

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After driving all day through two states, I fully intended to jump back into the empty brass debate with both guns blazing when it struck me that I was an integral component of a thread hijack.  So, Phantom, I apologize for my portion of the hijack of your thread.

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13 hours ago, Phantom, SASS #54973 said:

From vertical... Not horizonal.

That is correct. I should have clarified that the image was to be related to Chance Arizona's photo which is horizontal. It is very commonly misunderstood that the 30 degrees is from horizontal when indeed it is from vertical. I would venture that this misunderstanding by both people wearing crossdraws and people seeing them worn is most responsible for calls not being made. Most people don't understand the rule. 

 

For anyone who is looking for the rule: Shooters Handbook, page 3: Holsters may not depart from the vertical by more than 30º when worn.

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Hello Captain Bill Burt (and others who misunderstood my post),

 

I am not in favor of removing the default position. I just wrote that several people want it removed. One person even replied with an ! after every sentence. I guess he doesn't know that is the same as yelling.

 

My comment on the empty round was when the gun is picked up from a port-down position and the round was not in the gun. It was under the gun and assumed to have been in the port. IMO, it should only warrant a penalty when it is seen in the gun.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

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1 hour ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Hello Captain Bill Burt (and others who misunderstood my post),

 

I am not in favor of removing the default position. I just wrote that several people want it removed. One person even replied with an ! after every sentence. I guess he doesn't know that is the same as yelling.

 

My comment on the empty round was when the gun is picked up from a port-down position and the round was not in the gun. It was under the gun and assumed to have been in the port. IMO, it should only warrant a penalty when it is seen in the gun.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

Whoops.  Sorry Allie, I didn't read carefully enough!

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On ‎4‎/‎26‎/‎2018 at 7:19 AM, Father Kit Cool Gun Garth said:

              HELP....I'm Lost.

5ae1df3f9c6dd_LostinaMaze.png.572ddd6974a8c4ec6de0ef86c2120ff1.png

 

I need to find my way back to the thread about Angles and Belly Buttons.

Somewhere along the way, it took a turn and got off track.

 

My personal opinion on such things is that if the turn is an evolution to another rule, it can still be of value. People may start another thread and that may be best, in a perfect world. However, I don't claim to be perfect and Captain Bill Burt asked a valid question. I answered. That led the topic on an angled path.

 

IIRC the Moderators can split threads. I never did; but, I think that function was available along with Merge and other commands. All you have to do is Report the post where the thread went off track and ask the Moderators to split the thread.

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4 hours ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Hello Captain Bill Burt (and others who misunderstood my post),

 

I am not in favor of removing the default position. I just wrote that several people want it removed. One person even replied with an ! after every sentence. I guess he doesn't know that is the same as yelling.

 

My comment on the empty round was when the gun is picked up from a port-down position and the round was not in the gun. It was under the gun and assumed to have been in the port. IMO, it should only warrant a penalty when it is seen in the gun.

 

Regards,

 

Allie Mo

I didn't know the (  !  ) was yelling, always used as an exclamation with a smile on my face. OOOPs.

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Just now, Eyesa Horg said:

I didn't know the (  !  ) was yelling, always used as an exclamation with a smile on my face. OOOPs.

Sometimes yelling is okay. Especially when congratulating someone.

 

However, if you read this, you will see some nuances to its use. https://www.prdaily.com/Main/Articles/Settle_down_6_guidelines_for_using_the_exclamation_12141.aspx

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Wow, I guess I always used it for the old reasons. How does an old feller keep up with these grammar things? That's gonna be a hard habit to break. See I would have used one right there.:) Thank you Allie!

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6 minutes ago, Eyesa Horg said:

Wow, I guess I always used it for the old reasons. How does an old feller keep up with these grammar things? That's gonna be a hard habit to break. See I would have used one right there.:) Thank you Allie

I think the gist is to not use too many in negative or contradictory posts. You could have posted one after "Thank you Allie" ;) :lol:

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