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Unburnt Clays powder


chestnut louie

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I have been shooting 125grain bullets over the middle sized charge of Clays powder (winchester small pistol primers) and it gives me about 700 fps and soft recoil.  It also meters very accurately in my Dillion square deal B.  The problem is incomplete powder burning.  I do not shoot in freezing weather and the unburnt flakes make it difficult to seat cartrages all the way home when loading.  Any cartrage that is not completly seated will prevent the cylinder from rotating.

 

At the recomendation of a senior shooter I started using a heavy crimp and that only helped a little bit.  Powder must meter accurately in my Dillon SDB, have soft recoil and similar FPS (all knockdowns need to drop)

 

What about American Select (also good for Skeet)?  What about titegroup? or HP-38?

 

Thanks

Chestnutlouie 

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Clays usually shoots very clean in a .38 spl 125 grain load.  Leaving unburned powder is a sign you don't have enough powder in the load.  I've loaded probably 20K rounds with a moderate Clays load and 125 grain bullet for a gal who once shot a lot.  Rarely did it leave granules to interfere with loading.  A strong crimp certainly helps with light Clays loads.  I got a feeling you may not be even making 700 FPS, if you find unburned powder.

 

You can also get a cleaner burn by stepping up to a magnum primer rather than a standard one.

 

Until you figure out what to do as a permanent solution, get in the habit of spinning your cylinder with an easy rotation after you have loaded all five rounds.   If you find a high cartridge base, pop it out and run a nylon brush on a short cleaning rod into the cylinder.

 

TiteGroup may leave a little less residue, but most folks don't like it's loud report and sharp recoil and soot on cases.

 

HP-38/231 is not really cleaner than Clays.   Clay Dot (from Alliant) can be slightly cleaner, and it loads to about 105% of the weight of Clays to make a similar load in cowboy cartridges.

 

American Select can be hard to find at times, when times get tight.   It does not have a big following in the Cowboy game.  A few who do use it like it. 

 

But for every shooter shooting HP-38 or TG or Am Select, there are 20 shooting Clays.   And maybe 20 shooting Trail Boss.  Clays WILL work when you get it loaded right.   Your data from Hodgdon is at appropriate levels and can be made to work! 

 

A shooter in the Top Gun shootoffs at EOT once was looking for ammo for the last round - where he had to shoot against the top lady.  I volunteered ammo loaded with that soft load of Clays mentioned above.   Reading between the lines, he wanted something that would fail in his guns. The ammo loaded with Clays worked without fail.  He ended up pulling a couple of shots on the last set of knockdowns so the lady could win.  I did get a grin from him after that.

 

Just spin your cylinder.  Lots of pards do that.  I'll bet you find some high primers, too.  That's a much more common cause of jamming the cylinder part way through a cylinder full.  But if you do have a dirty cylinder (either from unburnt powder, or lead buildup), or one tightly cut chamber, you will certainly find it before it bites you.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

 

 

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Thanks for the quick replies.

The Hodgdon website says 2.5 min and 3.5 max for a 125 grain lead bullet and I use the middle so I am not clear on how that is light.  I measured the velocity.

Maybe I did not describe the problem clearly.  I do not care if the cases are dirty after firing as they will be tumbled again.  The issue is unburnt powder.

I have 3K+ primers an do not want to waste them. How do large flake powders like Red dot meter?

Thanks

Chestnutlouie 

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Have you collected the "Un burnt" powder and then tried lighting it with a match?

Chances are, what you are seeing is burnt powder flacks.

 

Increase the bullet pull so more pressure builds up in the case before the bullet leaves.

Also, try reducing the amount of resizing on your cases.

Using empty unprimed cases, resize them one at a time and check them in all your revolver chambers.

Reduce amount of sizing and try again.,

Keep doing this until you find the chamber that the case will not seat in completely.

Then turn sizing size 1/4 turn .

All cases should drop in that tight chamber.

 

What this does, is reduce the amount of expanding needed on the cases to seal in the chambers.

This with a stronger crimp will help build pressure in the case.

 

Smokeless powder burns more completely as pressure increases.

 

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Blast,

         The OAL is 1.454".

 

Cliff,

       I will try to collect the residue and see if it burns.  Tell me about "bullet pull"?  The crimp is strong.  I can adjust the crimp but I do not think I can adjust the "resizing" as my Dillon SDB has a resizing die w/o adjustments (that I know of).

 

Thanks

Chestnutlouie

 

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Lumpy,

 

Today was 55 degrees but we were doing pre-season practice on paper targets at out home club (trying to use up my original medium crimp cartridges).

Temp does not seem to make much difference.  FIY I 100% check all primer seating on every round.

 

Thanks

Chestnutlouie

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Looks like you are using a taper crimp. Try using a roll crimp.

I will PM you the Clay's load that I have been using for years that works in anything I've leaded it in.

 

Marshal Stone

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Louie;

 

Don't know how to post pic's but maybe GJ or one of the others can.

I use a Lee Factory crimp die on my Dillon 550 but you don't have that option with the SDB.

 

Marshal Stone

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I've been loading with Clays under 125 grain bullets for over six years now.  I use a load that's just a couple of notches above the minimum and I've never seen unburnt powder.  When I used Clays for my son's shotgun loads I got lots of unburnt powder.

 

I use a roll crimp, as Marshal Stone suggested you might try that.  Are you getting unburnt powder in all your cases and if so how are you cleaning them that allows the powder to remain afterwards.  If you're not getting unburnt powder maybe you have a chamber that's out of spec?  I know my bullets run a lot cleaner in my wife's rifle than in mine, not unburnt powder, just fouling.

 

I've done my loading on a SDB until a month or so ago.  You might call Dillon and ask them if they have any ideas.

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3 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Clays usually shoots very clean in a .38 spl 125 grain load.  Leaving unburned powder is a sign you don't have enough powder in the load.  I've loaded probably 20K rounds with a moderate Clays load and 125 grain bullet for a gal who once shot a lot.  Rarely did it leave granules to interfere with loading.  A strong crimp certainly helps with light Clays loads.  I got a feeling you may not be even making 700 FPS, if you find unburned powder.

 

You can also get a cleaner burn by stepping up to a magnum primer rather than a standard one.

 

Until you figure out what to do as a permanent solution, get in the habit of spinning your cylinder with an easy rotation after you have loaded all five rounds.   If you find a high cartridge base, pop it out and run a nylon brush on a short cleaning rod into the cylinder.

 

TiteGroup may leave a little less residue, but most folks don't like it's loud report and sharp recoil and soot on cases.

 

HP-38/231 is not really cleaner than Clays.   Clay Dot (from Alliant) can be slightly cleaner, and it loads to about 105% of the weight of Clays to make a similar load in cowboy cartridges.

 

Just spin your cylinder.  Lots of pards do that.  I'll bet you find some high primers, too.  That's a much more common cause of jamming the cylinder part way through a cylinder full.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

 

 

+1, been using Clays with no problem since 2005, tried Trail Boss once and had way too much unburnt powder so went back to Clays.

 

Randy

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1 hour ago, chestnut louie said:

All,

Please see the photo

heavy crimp.jpg

 

1 hour ago, Marshal Stone, SASS #53366 said:

 

Looks like you are using a taper crimp. Try using a roll crimp.

I will PM you the Clay's load that I have been using for years that works in anything I've leaded it in.

 

Marshal Stone

 

1 hour ago, chestnut louie said:

Marshal,

Please send a pic of a roll crimp.  Would it require a different die?

 

 

 

That *IS* a roll crimp - a taper crimp is much more gradual.

 

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That looks fine!

Loading this case is not critical. Your not going to fix anything with the crimp. IMHO

 

Getting radical to keep using that powdet/load should not be necessary.

 

Your powder may have been contaminated (moisture, case lube etc,). I had problems with some old 700x when I loaded light. I still shoot it for practice with heavier charge, shorter bullet set depth, heavier crimp (less than yours) and just get soot now.

 

I had clogging issues with rifle and shotgun. Shotgun looked like a battleship gun with a huge after burn comming out of the barrel long after the shot. Changed powder with everything else the same  and guns didn't even look like they were shot.

 

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4 hours ago, Marshal Stone, SASS #53366 said:

 

Looks like you are using a taper crimp. Try using a roll crimp.

I will PM you the Clay's load that I have been using for years that works in anything I've leaded it in.

 

Marshal Stone

There is no choice of type of crimp with the SDB which requires Dillon SDB dies.

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"Still waiting to hear what the dia of the expander die is."

 

Not sure what you are asking?  I can adjust it so that the case mouth has more or less flair and I set it so that bullets are easy to place.

 

a freshly re-sized case measures .374"

a flared case mouth measures .381"

the crimp measures .365"

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Your crimp looks fine... I'd try increasing the charge a tenth of a  grain...   You're unlikely to tell the difference in recoil, but it can do wonders with the burn, expansion, etc. of your cases.  Again, have you verified the accuracy of your scale?

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27 minutes ago, chestnut louie said:

"Still waiting to hear what the dia of the expander die is."

 

Not sure what you are asking?  I can adjust it so that the case mouth has more or less flair and I set it so that bullets are easy to place.

 

a freshly re-sized case measures .374"

a flared case mouth measures .381"

the crimp measures .365"

The expander die is also known as a powder funnel in Dillon speak.

You should be using a 'D' funnel, #13359.

You may well want to look at getting a 'F' funnel, #13806. it's a bit smaller O.D. and will give more bullet neck tension in the case.

Refer to your ops manual.

OLG

 

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I shoot both American Select and HP-38 in my 38 Special loads.  Both meter adequately for CAS .  HP-38 meters the best.  I don't shoot minimum loads and don't have trouble with unburned powder with either American Select or HP-38.  American Select makes good 12 gauge target loads.  However, there are many other powders that will do as well.

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20 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

You can also get a cleaner burn by stepping up to a magnum primer rather than a standard one.

+  Had the same problem, all it took was switching to the magnum primers to resolve.

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  • 2 weeks later...

Bingo,

 

I upped the load of clays from the middle of what Hodgon recomended for a 125 grain lead bullet to a couple clicks less that max on a 100 round test batch and went to the range yesterday afternoon.  The velocity went from 700fps to 800fps, the increase in recoil was tiny AND I did not see any unburnt powder flakes!

 

I also made some rounds using a light load of American Select and they were signifigantly more energetic at 950fps and more recoil then I want for Cowboy shooting.

In addition I tried loading 5 then spin the cylinder a couple of times (to find any issues before I am on the clock) before putting the hammer over the empty cylinder.  I will try using this loading method at a local match tomorrow.

 

I load on a Dillon Square Deal B

 

Thanks

Chestnut Louie  

 

 

 

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