45 Colt Uberti 1866/1873 Winchester?

[Stopsign32v]

How much load will these rifles handle? Surely they will take 8.5-9.0gr of Unique?

 

I know a 1873 Winchester = 44/40 and I would like to get one in 44/40. The thing is I have 4 revolvers that shoot 45 Colt and 1 that shoots 44/40. So really 45 Colt makes more sense. Would it be a big mistake to get one in 45 Colt over 44/40? 

[Captain Clark]

 

I guess the answer your seeking depends on the 1st part of your question regarding Unique. Is that load level safe in a modern firearm? Taking a look at the Alliant powder load data would indicate that is a reasonable load with certain bullets. 73 and 66 are safe with 44-40, and just as safe with 45 Colt.

These are capable rifles made with modern metal alloys and designed and proofed for 45 Colt loadings!

Get yourself a good loading manual like the Lyman cast bullet book { if you don't have one already } and you'll be good to go!

You will hear about how your brass is going to be dirtier from blowby with the straight wall 45 Colt case over a 44-40 bottleneck case, but the 1 caliber convenience  factor offsets that issue IMO.

I don't shoot Unique in 45 Colt so I can't comment on it being clean or dirty. There are various powders that are cleaner than others.

 

Your last question is if getting one in 45 Colt will be a mistake, the answer for many of us is NO! There may be some that disagree, but they're jus jealous

[LostVaquero]

If you use recommended load data from the powder manufacturer that is listed as regular not +p that should keep the round in SAMMI specs.  Italian made rifles have to be proof tested to CIP standards which are pretty close to SAMMI specs.  As far as 45 over 44WCF perhaps a bit more blowback.

[July Smith]

While we aren't supposed to post load data, I can assure you the Uberti toggle link rifles will handle current published load data.  The "Ruger Only" or "+P" level loads found in some manuals are only intended for the firearms specifically listed in those sections.

 

As to your thoughts about the 45colt lever action making more sense...  If you intended to shoot black powder I would definitely recommend the 44-40.  I too bought a 45colt lever action because I had revolvers already in that caliber.  In fact, I ended up with two 45colt lever actions, a Uberti 1873 and a pre-safety Rossi 92.  A few years later I lucked into a deal on a Cimarron 1860 "Henry" rifle in 44-40.  I could not believe how much better the 44-40 performed as a black powder round.  In the end, I sold both 45 colt lever actions and now have two 44-40s. 

 

I still have the 45colt revolvers.  If I plan on shooting the 45s with the 44s I simply cannot have my head too far up my butt when I am at the loading table.  A 44 in a 45 revolver will split the brass but not have enough pressure to really hurt anything.  A 45 in a 44 lever will not chamber.  So either way, it's not a safety issue, just can be an embarrassing one.

[Cypress Sam, SASS #10915]

Just remember that these rifles were proof tested with FACTORY links, not aftermarket short stroke links.  I  certainly won’t be shooting any “hot” loads in my short stroked rifles. 

[Stopsign32v]

42 minutes ago, Cypress Sam, SASS #10915 said:

Just remember that these rifles were proof tested with FACTORY links, not aftermarket short stroke links.  I  certainly won’t be shooting any “hot” loads in my short stroked rifles. 

 

This might be a dumb question, but can you install an aftermarket short stroke links to make them stronger? 

[July Smith]

Never heard of that.  Short strokes are for speed by reducing the amount of lever travel, not increasing the strength of the action.  The only thing you can do to a toggle link rifle to make it stronger is trade it off for a Winchester 92 or Marlin 94. 

 

I think a lot of people might over think the perceived weakness of the toggle link rifles.  Toggle links are not weak, just not as strong as some of the later designed rifles.  Normal 45colt loads will not harm a Uberti.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Quote

can you install an aftermarket short stroke links to make them stronger? 

 

None are made that are designed to improve the strength of a toggle action as WELL as shortening the stroke of SASS competition.  Because it's not really necessary for the game!  Hot loads are not required and are detrimental to most of what we are shooting in main matches.

 

If you want a STRONG action that can shoot hotter than factory loads, shoot a 92.  Or a 1895 lever.  

 

Good luck, GJ

[Stopsign32v]

1 hour ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

None are made that are designed to improve the strength of a toggle action as WELL as shortening the stroke of SASS competition.  Because it's not really necessary for the game!  Hot loads are not required and are detrimental to most of what we are shooting in main matches.

 

If you want a STRONG action that can shoot hotter than factory loads, shoot a 92.  Or a 1895 lever.  

 

Good luck, GJ

 

So a Uberti 1892 would be a stronger rifle than a 1866/73?

[Patagonia Pete]

Try a Rossi 92 ...  Read this article ...

http://www.leverguns.com/articles/paco/45coltlevergun.htm

 

 

[Stopsign32v]

I want historically as accurate as possible. Not interested in a Rossi.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

Then I would suggest you shop your Local Gun Shop and Gun Shows.  Uberti doesn't manufacture an 1892.  Google is your friend.  Surf the net!! 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

1 hour ago, Stopsign32v said:

I want historically as accurate as possible. Not interested in a Rossi.

 

So buy a used Winchester 92.   They are around, just have to look, and be willing to spend.

 

BTW- no Uberti is "historically accurate" either...!

 

good luck, GJ

 

If you want to be able to buy a new gun, your requirements have to be something that gun manufacturers have already decided to build.  Unless you are going to build your own factory.  Sorry to spring reality on you.

[Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474]

I hunted deer with my '66, (just to say I had) but was advised not to use to heavy charges too often, as they might tend to stretch the frame on my Yellow Boy.

I don't know if there is any basis for this, but I pass it along for whatever it's worth.

[Stopsign32v]

1 minute ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

So buy a used Winchester 92.   

 

BTW- no Uberti is "historically accurate" either...!

 

good luck, GJ

 

They are certainly closer than one with a cross bolt safety or tang safety. Kinda how an older Uberti Cattleman is more historically accurate than a new Uberti Cattleman II. 

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

It is becoming apparent, you are totally ignorant of the capabilities of these rifles.  It would also appear you haven't availed yourself of the Wire guidelines ie:  We do not discuss load data.  So exactly what is it you are trying to accomplish??  Or are you simply Trolling??

[Stopsign32v]

Ah, it appears Uberti doesn't make a 1892! I wonder who makes this one for Cimarron? http://oaklandguns.com/product.cimarron-1892-24-octagon

 

 

[Patagonia Pete]

... if you scroll half way down in the article (link posted) there is a discussion of 1873 repros .. AND ... some (Alliant) Unique load recommendations for those rifles.  Good Luck! 

 

 

 

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

28 minutes ago, Stopsign32v said:

 

They are certainly closer than one with a cross bolt safety or tang safety. Kinda how an older Uberti Cattleman is more historically accurate than a new Uberti Cattleman II. 

The cross bolt and tang safeties aren’t historically accurate, but a 66/73/92 in 45 colt is?

[Sixgun Sheridan]

The .45 Colt, .44-40 and .38 Special are all fairly low-pressure cartridges and the toggle link system is plenty strong enough for any SAAMI-spec loads. The .357 Magnum is much higher-pressure and is still safe in a toggle link rifle, but because of frame stretching issues only the steel-framed 1873 is chambered in it, not the brass-framed 1866. The 1892 is of course strong enough for extended shooting with nearly anything it's chambered for, as the design is actually over-engineered for what it is.

[Stopsign32v]

44 minutes ago, Sixgun Sheridan said:

The .45 Colt, .44-40 and .38 Special are all fairly low-pressure cartridges and the toggle link system is plenty strong enough for any SAAMI-spec loads. The .357 Magnum is much higher-pressure and is still safe in a toggle link rifle, but because of frame stretching issues only the steel-framed 1873 is chambered in it, not the brass-framed 1866. The 1892 is of course strong enough for extended shooting with nearly anything it's chambered for, as the design is actually over-engineered for what it is.

Thank you for this info!

[Major Hazzard, SASS #23254]

My "Cowboy" gun arsenal includes a Rossi 92 in .44-40, and 24" Uberti 1866 (.45) and 1873 (.44-40) rifles.  I've had all three for over 20 years and shot them with nothing but hand loaded lead bullets at load levels equating to the top-end black powder velocities.  I honestly don't see any significant difference between those cartridges in terms of potential accuracy.  You didn't say what you were going to be using this un-purchased rifle for, or what sort of revolvers you have, or what you're going to use them for.  Trouble is, this is a CAS discussion forum, so you need to spell things out a little plainer.  CAS, sadly, has steadily drifted down to competitions proving who can empty their guns the fastest without making any mistakes along the way.  For the most part, anyway.  So loads commonly seen in the game are "light" both for economy and to take managing recoil out of the picture.  At least with respect to what would have been considered "fighting" ammunition in the late nineteenth century.  From that perspective, it doesn't make a bit of difference whether you shoot .44-40 or .45.  But, you asked "how much load will these rifles handle" so I'm guessing maybe you're more interested in ammunition that's useful outside of CAS.  I'm not sure how to quantify answers to that question, but like the other gentlemen have already said, the guns are modern in terms of quality, proofed to SAAMI specs.  They'll handle anything within those standards.  If you hand load, wisely anyway, and read the manuals, you'll have no problems. 

[J-BAR #18287]

The two cartridges are easy to mix up.  I no longer own any .45 Colt guns but I would frequently get .44/40 brass mixed in with my .45 brass at the range, and I have on occasion reloaded .44/40 brass with a .45 bullet and fired it.  (The .44/40 brass will resize to accept a .45 bullet nicely.  The brass splits beautifully when fired!!)

 

Yes, careful attention during reloading can prevent the problem.  But why risk an unnecessary problem?  Pick one or the other.  I would recommend NOT using .44/40 and .45 Colt together.  Murphy will always prevail, sooner or later!

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

I’ve been shooting 45 in my pistols and 44-40 in my rifles at almost every match I’ve shot in the last four years. The only time I change it up is when I add a 44 special pistol or my orginal 73 in 38-40 It’s really not that difficult to keep them apart. I just mark the base of all my ammo with a different sharpie marker.

 

 I swear sometimes people want to dumb down this game to the lowest common denominator. There was a whole thread about any unusual sweeps or different rifle sequences than pistols being p traps. And now we’re not smart enough to shoot different ammo in different guns? How did the real cowboys back in the day that couldn’t even read do it? 

[Grey Beard]

6 hours ago, Stopsign32v said:

Ah, it appears Uberti doesn't make a 1892! I wonder who makes this one for Cimarron? http://oaklandguns.com/product.cimarron-1892-24-octagon

 

 

You could always look at a Winchester 1892 made by  Miroku.  They are very well made and would be stronger than the 73 and 66's.

GB

[Chili Ron]

Howdy,

Real Winchester 1892 in 44 w c f.

Yes an old one from between ww1 and ww2.

Pay once, get it working well and never regret.

Best

CR

ps the rossi is really pretty darn close.

 

[July Smith]

11 hours ago, Redwood Kid said:

I swear sometimes people want to dumb down this game to the lowest common denominator. There was a whole thread about any unusual sweeps or different rifle sequences than pistols being p traps. And now we’re not smart enough to shoot different ammo in different guns? How did the real cowboys back in the day that couldn’t even read do it? 

 

To be fair, back in the day all the targets were reactive, sequence and order did not matter so long as all the targets went down. 

 

Personally, I wouldn't mind seeing a stage or two every now and then that would have 20+ knockdown steels.  Clock stops when all the steels are down.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Quote

How did the real cowboys back in the day that couldn’t even read do it?

 

1.   They watched closely.

2.   They made lots of mistakes.

3.   Lots of "man-splaining"   

 

Good luck, GJ

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

On 4/2/2018 at 9:46 AM, Stopsign32v said:

How much load will these rifles handle? Surely they will take 8.5-9.0gr of Unique?

 

I know a 1873 Winchester = 44/40 and I would like to get one in 44/40. The thing is I have 4 revolvers that shoot 45 Colt and 1 that shoots 44/40. So really 45 Colt makes more sense. Would it be a big mistake to get one in 45 Colt over 44/40? 

 

Howdy

 

First of all, asking how much powder a rifle can take without mentioning the weight of the bullet is a meaningless question. Pressure varies with different bullet weights with any given powder charge. For example, 8.5 grains of Whiz Bang will result in more pressure with a 250 grain bullet than it will with a 200 grain bullet.

 

Of course, as has been stated, specific loading data is not allowed on the SASS Wire.

 

Second: ALL the rifles in question, replicas of the Winchester Models 1866, 1873, and 1892 are completely safe to shoot with SAAMI MAX loads. As was stated, they are all proofed in Italy to standards which are actually slightly higher than American standards.

 

Speaking of the relative strengths of the different designs, the Model 1892 Winchester is simply a stronger design than any of the Toggle Link rifles, ie 1860 Henry, 1866 Winchester, or 1873 Winchester. The 1892 is stronger because its locking mechanism is two solid locking lugs that lock the bolt in battery to the frame. On top of that, the frames of the Toggle Link guns were basically skeletonized frames, with sideplates attached. The sideplates did not add any strength to the frames. The 1892 model featured a solid frame, rather than a skeletonized frame. Much stronger. Plus, the 1892 was lighter than the 1873, and less expensive to produce.

 

Here is a photo of the action of an Uberti replica of the 1873 Winchester with the side plates removed. Much less solid metal to resist bolt thrust.

 

 

 

 

 

Here is a top down view of the frame of a Winchester Model 1892. The twin locking lugs are visible locking the bolt in position, and the frame is a solid piece of machined steel. This is a real Winchester Model 1892 from 1894, but the design has not changed with the replicas.

 

 

 

 

 

45 Colt or 44-40? That is up to the shooter. Obviously it makes a lot of sense to have your revolvers and rifle chambered for the same cartridge. Less confusion at the loading table. If you happen to load a 45 Colt cartridge into a 44-40 rifle, the round will feed very nicely into the magazine, then the gun will lock up tight when you try to chamber the round.

 

However, I have been shooting 44-40 in my rifles and 45 Colt in my revolvers since Day One in CAS, almost 20 years ago. My loading block, plus the black stripe across my 44-40 rounds helps cut down on the confusion.

 

[Sixgun Sheridan]

The 1892 is literally just a shrunken-down 1886 action. When John Browning was approached by Winchester to come up with an 1873 replacement he famously offered to have the new design in Winchester's hands within a month or else it would be free. All he did was simply rinse the the 1886 blueprints and quickly throw them in the dryer.

 

Okay, I made part of that up.

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

21 hours ago, Sixgun Sheridan said:

The 1892 is literally just a shrunken-down 1886 action.

 

I used to think that too, but when I bought a Model 1886 last year I discovered the carrier assembly was quite different than on the '92. Browning modified and simplified the carrier design for the '92. Not surprising, since he was always tinkering with stuff. The only other obvious difference from the outside is the two piece loading gate on the 1886 vs the one piece piece loading gate on the 1892. Plus of course, 1he Model 1886 is a lot bigger than the Model 1892.