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Chief Rick

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Doesn't matter if rifle or pistol for this scenario.

 

Five falling plates with a single stationary target centered above and behind the top of a standing plate.

 

Stage description states: "Engage targets with first round on stationary target, then engage plate rack until down, then put any remaining rounds on the stationary target."  Only misses on stationary target or standing plates will count as misses.

 

Shooter engages stationary target and then the plates.  A middle plate is hit but does not go down.  After far right plate falls (on 8th shot) shooter hits stationary with 9th shot.  TO says "PLATE" and points at standing plate.  Shooter shoots at but misses plate, leaving one plate standing.

 

What's the call?

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Since the stage instructions said, " engage plate rack until down, then put any remaining rounds on the stationary target."  I would say the shooter should have continued shooting at the knock down.

So 1 miss for target left up and a P for not following directions.

 

 

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IMO, the shooter engaged the stationary target again with the 9th shot before all plates were down. P was earned at that point. Doesn't really matter what the TO's instruction about 10th shot. But the OP seems incomplete. If the shot string was clean 1 shot on stationary, 5 on plate rack, & 4 on stationary, so if the 8th was on plate # 5, shooter must have shot more than once each one of the 4 downed plates. Regardless, going to the stationary target before all plates earns the P. 1 P, 1 miss.

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56 minutes ago, Don Coyote, SASS #63736 said:

IMO, the shooter engaged the stationary target again with the 9th shot before all plates were down. P was earned at that point. Doesn't really matter what the TO's instruction about 10th shot. But the OP seems incomplete. If the shot string was clean 1 shot on stationary, 5 on plate rack, & 4 on stationary, so if the 8th was on plate # 5, shooter must have shot more than once each one of the 4 downed plates. Regardless, going to the stationary target before all plates earns the P. 1 P, 1 miss.

There were misses on the plate rack prior to the far right (5th plate) falling.

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This particular plate rack has 5 horizontal plates with the dump target above the middle standing plate.

 

We also have a "tombstone" plate rack with the dump target located in front of and below the bottom of the first plate.

 

With the understanding that a miss can't cause a P, and not judging shooter's intent, would you still call it a P and a miss?

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12 minutes ago, Chief Rick said:

There were misses on the plate rack prior to the far right (5th plate) falling.

He has 9shots to knock down 5 plates. Any misses on plates don't count as a miss as long as all 5 are down at the end of the shot string.  He gets a "P" because instructions said knock down all plates THEN put remaining rnds on stationary target. He didn't do that when he shot the stationary target with a plate still standing.

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Hitting the Stationary Target can be construed as an errant MISS on the plate rack.   We cannot 'assume' other than we know the shooter missed the target on the plate rack.

 

I would voice my opinion for 1 Miss because a plate rack target was still standing........ and No 'P'.

 

..........Widder

 

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1 hour ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

Hitting the Stationary Target can be construed as an errant MISS on the plate rack.   We cannot 'assume' other than we know the shooter missed the target on the plate rack.

 

I would voice my opinion for 1 Miss because a plate rack target was still standing........ and No 'P'.

 

..........Widder

 

If , as the OP stated, that all plate rack targets were to be down before engaging the "dump" target again , and the shooter did not do so, it's clearly a P. He had already engaged the dump target with his 9th round with a kd still standing. Clearly a P. Assess the misses as you wish. I'd call  I the miss on the dump.

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However, if the stationary target was placed just above the 3rd kd target & was hit by a high aim at that kd, Hmmmm? Problem is he still engaged the dump while a kd was still standing. But, if the shooter was "intending" to hit the standing kd & shot high & hit the stationary plate instead,,,,,? Guess ya'd have to be there, huh?

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, Don Coyote, SASS #63736 said:

However, if the stationary target was placed just above the 3rd kd target & was hit by a high aim at that kd, Hmmmm? Problem is he still engaged the dump while a kd was still standing.

 

How do you know he was engaging the dump and not just a poor shot on the plate:huh: He coulda been aiming right at that plate when that fly landed on his nose;) 1 Miss for plate left:)

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9 minutes ago, Jefro, SASS#69420 said:

How do you know he was engaging the dump and not just a poor shot on the plate:huh: He coulda been aiming right at that plate when that fly landed on his nose;) 1 Miss for plate left:)

Guess that would be a judgement call for the TO, who according to the OP, told the shooter to place #10 on the stationary plate.

 

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The "judgement call " by the TO would have to be that he realized the shooter hit the stationary plate unintentionally. If the TO still called #10 on the stationary target, just a miss. ( & a boo-boo by the TO). 

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6 minutes ago, Don Coyote, SASS #63736 said:

Guess that would be a judgement call for the TO, who according to the OP, told the shooter to place #10 on the stationary plate.

 

 

I must be missing something because I can't find in the Posters comments that the TO told the shooter to place #10 on the stationary plate.

 

Did I miss something?

 

EDIT:  and if the TO had given such instructions, that would have been some bad instructions considering one of the plate racks were still standing.

 

..........Widder

 

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5 minutes ago, Widder, SASS #59054 said:

 

I must be missing something because I can't find in the Posters comments that the TO told the shooter to place #10 on the stationary plate.

 

Did I miss something?

 

EDIT:  and if the TO had given such instructions, that would have been some bad instructions considering one of the plate racks were still standing.

 

..........Widder

 

Your are absolutely right, Widder. Re reading the OP, it makes it unclear whether the whole shot string was including on a miss on a kd & hitting the stationary "plate" centered above the middle target on the plate rack. If the TO was aware that the errant shot on the stationary target was just that, his direction to the shooter was correct, tho a little short..."standing plate" would have been way better. He missed # 10, so 1 Miss!!!

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YEP, he missed his 10th shot which should have been on the standing plate rack target.

 

Actually, I personally like a stage such as this, mainly because of the reactive plate rack targets.

 

And I don't fault the stage writer because as Chief Rick stated, it appears to me the stage instructions were very clear about the process.

 

And in my opinion, a miss at a standing plate rack target, regardless where the bullet hits, is still a no-call unless the plate rack target(s) are still standing.  And then it can only be earned as a Miss.

 

Good topic (even if PWB chimes in and tells me I'm wrong... ;))

 

..........Widder

 

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But when I read the OP again it clearly states "After far right plate falls (on 8th shot) shooter hits stationary with 9th shot". At that point he earned the P. Enough said.

 

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Shooter HIT targets "out of order" = "P"

Standing plate = MISS

T/O instructing the shooter to go to the plate to negate the MISS would be considered "proper coaching" even after the shooter incurred the "P".

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Stage writing for reactive targets can be tougher. I personally don't like stage that dictate the plates MUST fall before you go to a dump target......for the reasons listed in this thread..........lol. The way I look at it is if you have 5 plates and 10 rounds I don't care what the shooter does with the "other" five rounds (as long as they are fired)........if they want to shoot the dump target 5 times first have at it..........lol. If they want to shoot five rounds in the dirt......have at that too......they are just making the stage harder than it has too be and risking a miss.  All I personally care about is if the 5 plates are down and 10 rounds were fired.  It's more shooter friendly for sure.

 

Granted if your intention is making the falling plates another strategy of the stage then that's another thing completely but I think many times the writing is not spelled out like intended because writing the stages is harder than you think. The conventions cover it but trust me many folks will doubt your wisdom at the match in these cases. Especially if they get all the plates down, shoot 4 on the dump target but in the mix they threw a round out and and then you call them for a miss.......lol.

 

Also if the intent is making sure they don't get to miss before after or inbetween shooting the plates that is tough to call because of what Widder said.....the intent thing. 

 

As people lawyer up more at the SASS matches then stage writing gets even tougher.........so you have to know the rules well or spell it out perfectly clear in the stage description. 

 

 

 

 

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Intent has nothing to do with it.  Unless you can articulate how the shooter "intended" to game the stage to a competitive advantage, earning a SOG penalty.  As often cited, usually only doable with the support of shooter's oral comments before, during or immediately following the stage.

 

Whether one hits a target of type stated as belonging to the weapon type being used on purpose or thru error, (error of memory or aim), it's a "P"... if there is an order stated in stage instructions.  The only order I discern from the OP was; stationary plate, plate rack then stationary plate.  Ergo, hitting the stationary plate before the KDS are down, results in a "P".  Plus one 5 second penalty for leaving a KD up.    Unless of course, as PWB noted, there wasn't ample space to allow a clean miss on any target.

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I appreciate the response from PWB, and the discussion among everyone else.

 

Our targets offer plenty of space for a clean miss - but I've seen some misses really off target!

 

I also could care less in what order the targets are engaged.

 

How would you word the scenario?

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13 minutes ago, Chief Rick said:

I appreciate the response from PWB, and the discussion among everyone else.

 

Our targets offer plenty of space for a clean miss - but I've seen some misses really off target!

I never intend to miss anything but when it happens it happens and I expect to be assessed a 5 second penalty

 

I also could care less in what order the targets are engaged.

Then don't specify an order in the stage description... problem solved! no more procedurals!:blink:

 

How would you word the scenario?

What was wrong with how it was worded in the first place?

Seemed pretty straight forward, easy to understand and identical to scenarios with those type of targets I have shot over the years.

Without controversy I might add:rolleyes:

 

Regards

 

:FlagAm: :FlagAm: :FlagAm:

 

Gateway Kid

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Howdy Chief Rick.

 

Although my call would have been the wrong call (1 miss only), I still feel like the wording of the stage was good.

 

(my brain was still in a winter freeze mode and I just wasn't thinking..... thats my story and I'm sticking to it..... :lol::lol:)

 

..........Widder

 

 

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Funny how we perceive or interpret things differently. 

I would have let it slide w/o a miss or a P, since it is stated the plate was hit but did not fall.

Youse guys is tuff!!

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I agree with Cowboy Junky on the intent part.  I like to take it out, if I can.  If there are 5 regular targets and 5 knockdowns, I'll generally write it to shoot the regular targets first, then the knockdowns and clean up missed knockdowns with the SG.  It's much easier on the spotters.

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13 hours ago, Chief Rick said:

I appreciate the response from PWB, and the discussion among everyone else.

 

Our targets offer plenty of space for a clean miss - but I've seen some misses really off target!

 

I also could care less in what order the targets are engaged.

 

How would you word the scenario?

 

Chief - the stage instructions were  clear and complete to me.
 

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