Are there ways to help a counter(s)to see a miss(s)

[Pat Riot]

I always watch the targets and move, if necessary, to get a good view of the targets while a shooter is shooting. It’s not the counter’s job to watch the shooter. It’s the counter’s job to watch and listen to the targets. 

 

Also, if folks are making enough noise or doing something that distracts me as a counter it is also probably distracting the shooter and the other counters. I have no problem asking folks to keep the noise down or knocking off what ever it is they are doing. Sometimes the TO needs a little help with this. They can’t do everything on the line.

[Lorelei Longshot, SASS #44256 Life]

For those of us shooting black powder, counters need to remember not to stand directly behind us because they won't be able to even see the targets if there is no breeze once the first round goes downrange.  When shooting black powder, it helps if you are the first shooter and the targets are freshly painted as spotters can "see" the dings, but this isn't always possible.

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Hoss

 I know not hearing the clang isn't an automatic miss. I'm offering that some spotters who don't hear a clang equate that to a miss. They aren't paying attention tot he target.

Ike

[Barry Sloe]

One other thing to remember when spotting: there are 3 spotters, both sides of the shooter should be covered. You may not see what they see on the other side, but that's okay.  Call what you see.

I've had many times when I thought I saw a miss, but from my angle I wasn't sure. My call was clean.

 

BS

 

 

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Painting the targets between shooters at a regional, Winter Range or EOT would not work. They have a budgeted amount of time for each of the 3 flights of shooters each day. Anything added to the normal process of shoot, move, next shooter would not allow them to get the 3 flights in. We got yelled at by the match director because we hadn't moved to the next stage when he thought we should have. We had 3 re-shoots which increased our total time at that stage.

Ike

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Ya know, I got told the same thing when we were trying to convince the EOT match directors several years back about how we could change EOT to a brass-returned match.  "That would be too slow" to let folks shag brass at a match like this.   "We need to just rake the brass to the side and pick it up at end of day," they kept saying.

 

Well, with a little work and a lot of persuasion, we started doing 4H and Boy Scout brass shagging about 8 years ago, and it has worked pretty well.   And shooter's get their own brass back, and the kids make more funds from donations than they ever did selling brass.  Win - win all around.

 

So, be careful of holding on  to old ideas of what will and won't work too long.    When there arrives both a need and some imagination about how to "get 'er done", we can often make a new way work.

 

Good luck, GJ 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

23 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

So, be careful of holding on  to old ideas of what will and won't work too long.    When there arrives both a need and some imagination about how to "get 'er done", we can often make a new way work.

 

Good luck, GJ 

 

Losing our love of spray cans would go a long ways toward speeding up the process of painting targets between shooters.  

 

A Boy Scout or two on each bay with a roller could hit every plate with paint as quickly as brass could be picked and targets reset.

 

Now admittedly, while fast, rollers are messy and I would never ask that shooters in expensive clothes, hats and leather use one.  

 

But for major matches with the access to non shooting support staff...

Painting between each shooter is a realistic and viable option if the will to do it exists.

 

[Chicken George*]

I'd love to see the targets painted for each shooter! But how do you do it at WR where more than 1 stage occupy the same bay? Harder to make it safe to go down range. 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Expendable "Paint drones"  

[Smokin Gator SASS #29736]

Once targets are fully painted it doesn't  take much to touch up a couple of spots per target. Spray cans or a smaller roller for touch up. The targets aren't very far downrange.  

[Chicken George*]

20 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Expendable "Paint drones"  

Or paintball guns

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

48 minutes ago, Smokin Gator SASS #29736 said:

Once targets are fully painted it doesn't  take much to touch up a couple of spots per target. Spray cans or a smaller roller for touch up. The targets aren't very far downrange.  

Just attach a roller to the 30 inch barrels of my 10 gauge and you wouldn't even have to go down range at many shoots these days.

[Kirk James]

Does anyone know how long it would add to paint targets.  I agree the painters would only be covering up the previous shooters hits.  All the ideas regarding spotters are great, but some shooters pay no attention to what is being said.   How much time would it add to accomplish this?

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

NM State Match last year painted splats with can after every shooter.  Painters were almost always done before the brass was shagged.  So, pretty quick.

NM State Match this year (Sept 2018 at Founders) will do the same!

 

Good luck, GJ

[watab kid]

i always 'as a spotter' think as the book says , if i think its a hit - it is a hit , if i think its a miss - its a hit , and if i know its a miss - then it is a miss , im not the best at seeing and hearing any more , i concentrate as a spotter when i am a spotter , i look to get the best visual advantage and take care to pay attention , i might make a mistake , but that's why there are more than one spotter , we balance each other out - if you have a gripe call it out at the time , do not wait till the match is over and the scores are logged , 

 

i pick brass when circumstances allow , but when i spot i concentrate on getting it correct , 

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

A lot of matches have been won and lost by poor spotting. I remember were 2 close buddies spotting, sitting on stools, gabbing, and also for a time their views were blocked by both the shooter and TO. Yet, their X-Ray and hearing skills were exceptional because many times they were able to call misses, that weren't. 

Then there is always the spotter who relies on the other 2 to make his determination of hits and misses. As to fast shooters, even when one can clearly see a miss, not an edge hit, or ricochet, spotters will call one clean.  As TO, you have to accept the majority, There was also the time, 2 of the spotters kept calling misses on dump target as clean. After 2 shooters that clearly missed dump targets, I had to ask if they seen those misses. They said yes, but thought misses on dump targets didn't count, even though it was clearly stated during the reading of stage.

For me as a shooter, I just now accept wrong calls and move on. One reason I don't wait to hear time, nor look up to see spotters calls till after I have returned firearms to my cart and then look I'll go to see my score. MT

 

[Griff]

When it's overcast... take off the sunglasses... 

[Rye Miles #13621]

Well we can always go to paper targets!!!

[Cowboy Junky]

51 minutes ago, Griff said:

When it's overcast... take off the sunglasses... 

Mine adjust automatically. 

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

13 hours ago, Kirk James said:

Does anyone know how long it would add to paint targets.  I agree the painters would only be covering up the previous shooters hits.  All the ideas regarding spotters are great, but some shooters pay no attention to what is being said.   How much time would it add to accomplish this?

In one sense it would not take all that long IF (that would be BIG if) all stages were on their own individual bay. A range that had all individual bays probably could paint between shooters without much problem and that would be great, but many across the country simply do not have that luxury as an option. At a large match like Winter Range (for example) where you have multiple stages/posse's on a single bay unless all shooters of a given speed were paired up so a "downrange" command could be given for all stages simultaneously on that common bay, everyone understands the stage directions without additional explanation, no controversies or "discussed" calls allowed, no mechanical malfunctions of targets, no reshoots, no shooters guns breaking down at oddball times, everybody expedited at the same time, painters ready to go as soon as shooter is finished etc it could turn into a logistical nightmare.

Winter Range has 4 individual bays, 8 common bays so adding an average increase of only 10 seconds on those 8 bays to each shooter would add (756 shooters x10 seconds each x8 bays =60480 seconds /60 seconds to get minutes = 1008 minutes /60 minutes to get hours =16.8 hours additional per day divvied up between those 8 bays would be an additional 2.1 hours per day. They already shoot from 8 am to roughly 5 pm so would they go to 7 am to 6 pm? or where would they find that extra time? How would the range master and match director handle the backups (which sometimes already occur) on that scale if anything did not go perfectly? And 10 seconds to raise the flags, get your painters downrange and back seems very optimistic.

 

Just my .02

Regards

 

  

 

Gateway Kid

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Yes, WR is about the worst possible case of a range designed for a totally different fire control discipline (bullseye relays) adapted to Cowboy Shooting.   It would almost be better to try to find a different venue (or dig out more "pistol bays") than to try to figure out how to adapt Ben Avery to be a true Shoot N Scoot palace.

 

But then, it's not MY job to tell Zak, the Board, and the Rangers how to run their match.   THEY HAVE DONE AN EXCELLENT JOB THROUGH THE YEARS MAKING IT WORK AS WELL AS IT DOES!  Salute to them!

 

Folks can always find a reason not to improve.  The OP was most interested in HOW to IMPROVE.   A more interesting objective. 

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

[Gateway Kid SASS# 70038 Life]

GJ

winter range was simply an example of some (repeat SOME) of the issues involved. Most of the clubs I shoot at have at least some common bays if not all of their stages and already deal with trying their best to improve the shooting experience of their customers. But since it appears you "misinterpreted" what I was pointing out I will try to clarify...

I would not presume to tell the board how to run their match. As best I can tell by attendance and feedback they run the best match in the country. (my opinion is that as well)

But perhaps your expertise could be used to direct them to a different venue or negotiation with ben avery to change the range to better suit your idea of "improved"

I am aware that founders ranch is individually bermed (that is your home club correct?) and has come up with some creative solutions to the problems they have faced over the years. That does not mean those solutions will work everywhere as most clubs lack the financial wherewithal that the wild bunch has to change the overall structure of their facility, or the landlord/tenant clout to demand changes to better suit our game, perhaps at the expense of other shooting sports.

I am currently involved with a range development here in my home area. It will be a multi discipline range that will have venues for trap, skeet, 3-gun, IDPA, IPSC, CAS, pistol usage including bullseye, rifle range at short to medium distance (out to 350 meters) and bow/arrow. So far the original design has been a compromise that has left something to be desired from all potential users. Our punch list is down to 9 pages from an original 21. My viewpoint (based on my participation) is that without knowing what difficulties lie ahead and adequately planning/preparing for them there is no improving based on the viewpoint of a single discipline or user regardless of their own expertise. It seems something always has to be compromised.

BTW why aren't you out at the range today? I am awaiting a flight to Montana for work so am missing my local match and killing time here.  All the best.

 

Regards

 

  

 

Gateway Kid

 

[Gold Canyon Kid #43974]

I would argue that the venue is not the issue in spotting, certainly not common firing line, versus individusl bay per stage.  Some fairly minor fixes could improve spotting.  It is easier to SEE misses when ground is not covered with weeds and grass.  You have got to get spotters to not all stand together.  You should design props so spotters can see all the targets from one location and props need to allow 2 such locations.  Even if spotters need to move to see the targets, some will not. You need to replace spotters more frequently.  Some will spot full time except when shooting or running the timer.  That cuts attention to the task. Try to have RO trained spotters at all but monthly matches. Find out at start who has eyesight or hearing issues and do not have them spot.  The TO must keep track of which spotters that are not doing well and replace them.  If TO sees what he believes are spotter errors, he needs to tell them what he saw and offer them a chance to reconsider. This happens often on edge hits. In the end, he will not over rule them. Cut down talking close to firing line, it can disrupt shooter, TO AND spotters.  Hope this in spirit of question asked by OP.

[Kirk James]

Thanks Gateway,  I see your point.    What does everyone think of having a recommendation from your home club to be a spotter?  The posse normally picks a selective group of TO's that have taken the RO class which is a big help.    The examples in this post are very helpful to educating spotters.  They have been given for years and need to be addressed often as a reminder. But unfortunately the word is not  getting out there.  I did not see any problems with the posse I watched this year at Winter Range  They were excellent!!!!!  Winter Range was excellent as I posted earlier several times.  I have at big matches in previous years.   It took years to get to the total time scoring.  As with any other activity/contest we need to brainstorm ways to make them better without criticism.      

[Cowboy Junky]

I have seen a few calls change on the first shooter when the targets are freshly painted and no one else has shot them so it would help.....just the added time factor "if" that matters.

 

But I would think if the spotter's would really focus and be willing to move around 95% of the problem would go away without the extra painting.

 

PS I don't like the term counter because my goal is to give them nothing to count..........lol. 

[Max Payne]

If you look around at the spotters, you can usually see who's paying attention & how they're making their calls. Not a bad idea for others to give some friendly schooling to those spotters who need it. And, if that's not working, I think it's okay to suggest to those spotters that they do something else, like pick up brass, keep score, or monitor the loading or unloading table. One key indicator is when you see a spotter look at other spotters' calls before they make their own call, which means they don't either don't know what happened or don't have confidence in their own observation.

 

If you're shooting on a posse with mostly experienced shooters, these things normally get resolved pretty quickly.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

A good spotter is one who when the other two call 1 miss, calls "clean" and then points to the paint missing from an edger.

[watab kid]

i have always ered to the shooter , its the right thing to do , when they change the rules ill reconsider my future shooting here , i have never witnessed a spotter group that were not pro shooter , but then i only have shot state shoots up here in the great plains , im not sure how it goes in the rest of the lower 48 , im never a contender but ive been close enough with those that are to know there was no favoritism shown in my presence , 

[Kirk James]

Sounds like paint is out of the question.  It doesn't seem the idea of qualified spotter is getting people excited, so it seems education maybe the ticked..Maybe all TO's have a prepared speech before the shooting starts. I should address everything we are talking about.  it many a least get the spotters attention.  Same card at every monthly match throughout the country(s0.  Hit it hard for a year and we may get some where.

[Chili Pepper Jack]

I like it when my spotters have blindfolds helps keep me under 52 misses a match. 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

The BEST way, although expensive, to remove so much worry over spotters is to: 

 

Go to all knockdowns (starting with revolvers)

 

But the expense of "retargeting" hundreds of clubs is staggering.

 

(I think we'll just have to live with spotting for a while.)  Hey, how about good training and testing videos?   

 

Good luck, GJ

[Hoss]

this past weekend I had a case where I definitely saw the dirt fly, and did not hear a clang, but thought due to angle that it could have been an edge hit. I just was not sure. Going by my rule of needing 2 for sure indications of a miss, I called it clean. other 2 spotters, on other side of the bay called it 1 miss. I commented I thought the miss could have been an edge hit, they both agreed no. thats why we have 3 counters! I was wrong, but gave the benefit of the doubt to the shooter. I will continue to use my method of 2 indicators of a miss or its a hit!

 

On the flip side, I had a pistol miss. I know it was a miss, the TO knew it was a miss, 1 spotter had clean, one had the miss. the third spotter was way down the bay, and likely did not have a good look at the targe and or was distracted. the look on his face when polled by the TO was clearly confused. . he called it clean. I got the benefit of the doubt, but I knew it was a miss. I learned not to argue with spotters a long time ago! sometimes you are the bug, sometimes you are the windshield!!!

 

On the flip side, I have called 2 SDQs on myself, one at loading table when I found a piece brass from previous stage in a pistol another when I tripped and fell carrying shotgun. I more or less landed on gun, and was able to keep muzzle downrange, but I knew that I had let it go before we both hit the ground. 

[Chicken Coop SASS 5791 L]

OK pards, we are not talking "hearing" here. We are talking "seeing" here. Especially with BP shooters like ME (2 Top Ten Winter Range Belt Buckles shooting Frontiersman). As a spotter over the last 20+ years at CAS matches all over the USA (of course, as a competitor/shooter), I have been "over-ruled" by vote count as a spotter beaucoup times because I could not "see" the miss. IMO, we should never use ears as a "miss spotter". Dammit, we need to SEE it.

[Max Montana, SASS #23907]

One way.  Do away with spotters.  Have 1-3 target painters, depending on number of targets and array size.  One painter calls missed pistol targets when there is no mark on a pistol target  Likewise for a rifle target painter.  3rd painter is used when more than 5 targets used in both arrays.  Still have separate sg setters.  Based on the time to go down range, I doubt it would take more time than current.  Especially on those stages with big and close targets.  Everyone on the posse could see intantly when a target didn't have a mark.   

 

I'm against painting targets,  but don't know why?  It would cost more paint.  However, the use of more reactive targets would produce the same result, and take the same time for reset, higher target cost, and calibration requirements for consistency.  Paintin' targets each shooter, hmmmm....

 

Problem exists with multiple hits on target covering subsequent marks.  Still have to rely on sight and sound.   All I got.  Ya'll figger it out.  Movin' on to another topic.

 

[MizPete]

On 3/10/2018 at 3:55 PM, Gold Canyon Kid #43974 said:

Find out at start who has eyesight or hearing issues

One of the best spotters I know is deaf.  She watches the targets and nothing gets by her.

 

I have tried to keep quiet on this issue because it's Petey that is often bad-called, especially on pistols.  His loads are not mouse-fart but on a good day he can be pretty quick and a following pistol shot may not sound.  If it kicks up dirt, it's probably an edger -- he can miss, but it won't be by much.  Also, he will tell you when he misses a target.  He depends on me to pay attention, but I can't say much lest somebody think I would cut him some slack.