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Are there ways to help a counter(s)to see a miss(s)


Oklahoma Dee

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Sometimes, not always, counters seem to be against the shooter, no matter what they see or do not see, when it comes to calling misses.

 

What are some ways that could help counters become better and more understanding as to what is required of them?

 

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I think the first thing to remember is this is a game.  The shooter always has the benefit of the doubt.

These are 3 things that I got in my head that helped me as a counter:

 WATCH THE TARGET, NOT THE SHOOTER.

 If you THINK it's a miss, it's a hit.

When in doubt, go with the counter that has the lowest number of misses.

 

This game, in my opinion, is set apart from others because the people are good people.  It shouldn't be taken so seriously that people get wound up over a miss.  There's no money involved.  If I ever get to the point where I find myself getting upset over a miss or not a miss, I'll bow out and quit the game.  

So in short, have fun, give the shooter the benefit of the doubt and enjoy the smoke and camaraderie. 

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I think as the targets have gotten bigger and close it's harder for some folks to spot. IMHO being lazy or not fully engaged is the biggest issue I see. I see great spotters moving with the shooter's and paying attention. I see bad spotter's in bad places when they make bad calls. 

 

Maybe "lazy" is the wrong word for some..........maybe educating them is best. 

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I noticed that very low velocity rounds that hit near the target bolt or hanging bracket don't make the usual ding.  If the spotter is not watching closely, they may call a miss due to no target ring.  

 

I've seen most "miss discussions" amongst spotters go to the shooters benefit.

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If you "know" it's a hit.. It's a hit..

If you "think" it's a hit.. It's a hit..

If you "think" it's a miss.. It's a hit..

If you "know" it's a miss.. It's a miss..

Benefit of doubt goes to the shooter..

and yes.. Spotters need to be moving..  following the shooter

and not parked on a stool..

Especially moving for black powder shooters..

 

Rance ;)

Just my thinkin':)

 

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I try to move with the shooter to get a better view of the targets.

Some stages - although "cool" looking really interfere with line of sight for spotters. 

"Dead" targets - cause problems.

Don't get your count by checking out the other spotters to see what they are calling.  When I see this going on and somebody looking to see what I'm calling I will turn my back to them and only let the TO see what I spotted.

My pet peeve, spotters sitting down, no possible way of seeing the targets, shooting the bull with their neighbor and generally not paying attention.

I have trouble with extremely fast shooters and gun fighters and try not to spot for them, small posses don't always give that option though.

Black powder shooters - I try to crouch and get upwind to keep the targets in sight. 

Having the edges of the targets painted helps for edgers.

Having said all that - I know I make some wrong calls now and then.  Hopefully it evens out - call a miss that was a hit and call a hit that was a miss.  I try to do the best I can and am generous with the "benefit of the doubt".

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Proper training (including RO classes) is the key.

Another contributing factor is the physical capabilities of the spotter (how good is their sight & hearing ?).

An observant TO or posse marshal can help minimize problem calls by the selection of spotters and guidance to them.

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When I spot I watch the targets real close. I do stick with the hit  is a hit. If a miss  it's a miss. When in doubt it's a hit. I don't look or care what the other spotters have I see what I see.  I have seen some spotters always look to see what the other spotter 's got.

I don't want to see a shooter miss at all.

My eyes are good, my hearing not so good but I still try and do 100%.

 

The benefit goes to the shooter if any doubt

 

JRJ

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In my mind, it only takes 1 positive action to call it a hit. A "CLANG" see paint fly off target face, see target move, actually see bullet hit target. it takes at least two indicators for me to call a miss. Most obvious is dirt flying where bullet hit ground, absence of any "CLANG" combined with not seeing target move of paint fly. if I do see dirt kick up, I try to check angle in relation to target to look for edger. 

 

My pet peave is to see a counter look at other counters to see what they are holding up. or even ask. I'll admit I have been distracted while counting, and do not know the actual count. then I admit I missed and show clean. 

 

I know one counter who always waits for other counters, then if 2 of them show 1 miss, he will say "clean" Doesnt actually change the outcome as 2 have already called 1 miss. I think he is hunting for a payback when others are counting for him!

 

Whats harder for me is counting for some of the really quick gunfighters, especially on a stage where there are options on how to shoot it. On more than one occasion I have said "shooter hit every target, but I have no idea if it was in proper order"! 

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One of the most effective - paint between shooters.  If you have separate bays with berms between, it's very easy to do and not that expensive if you just paint the splats and not whole target after each shooter, while brass is being shagged and knockdowns reset.

 

Actively change out spotters and Timer Operators - about 5 shooters and it's time for a new crew.  If four of those five shooters come back to the line and pick up sticks and the timer, ta-da!, you have the new crew in  place!

 

Training videos put up on club sites and even some of the "un-social" media (ugh) venues.   Show folks how your ability to accurately tell hits from misses depends upon good position, looking at the right thing (the targets), having in mind the sequence the shooter is likely to fire at targets, and knowing the rules about P's, Misses and Safety calls.    I'd like to see WR and EOT have a five minute Spotter refresher video at the "safety" meeting - if it could be done with some decent production values!

 

Since our game makes the other competitors on your posse responsible for accurately determining YOUR final results and placement, it helps to have the best possible posse members who know and can apply all the right rules and techniques for getting you the outcome you have earned by your run.

 

Good luck, GJ

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When I run the timer ( not often, but sometimes I have to!) I make sure the spotters know that I am about to start the shooter. As the shooter is placing his long guns on the stage, I will tell him/her “I’m checking spotters “,  and move (if I have to) to see the spotters.  Then I call out loudly “Where are my 3 spotters?”  Make eye contact with each one, point to him and announce “Spotter one...spotter two...spotter three.”  If I don’t have three, I wait until I get volunteers.  Rarely do I have  to assign anyone;  by this time they know I’m not going to give a beep until I have three, and they know the beep is going to be coming quickly.  Then I turn to the shooter and say ( in a voice loud enough for everyone to hear because sometimes the shooter can’t be seen by the spotters, inside a prop, etc.) “Spotters are ready. Is the shooter ready?...Stand by...”. BEEP.

 

And I do it for every shooter each time they shoot.  It doesn’t take long for everyone to know what they are going to hear when I’m running the timer.

 

So this is a very long way of saying, one thing a TO can do to help spotters is let them know when the beep is coming and make sure they are paying attention before you give the beep.

 

 

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:FlagAm::FlagAm::FlagAm::FlagAm::FlagAm:

 

Oops.  I didn't see Garrison Joe's post. 

I was going to say what he said. 

 

 

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Howdy Dee.

It ain't only just the spotters but the TO as well who is to 'help' ensure the correct calls are given.

When a Spotter says:  "I Think....." the TO has a responsibility to reject any 'negative' call being referred to in the "I Think' comment.

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

 

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I know my abilities and I will not spot for the top shooters. They shoot too fast for me to keep up. I want to be fair for everyone. I don't want to call a miss that wasn't or clean when it wasn't.

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1 hour ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

I'd like to see WR and EOT have a five minute Spotter refresher video at the "safety" meeting

+1 to that. 

I do hear the "if you think it is a miss, it is a hit" a lot. But I think they need to push what Hoss said about it needing to have two things (no clang AND see the dirt kick up behind the target) to be a miss.

 

I reviewed  some videos we took of WR and there were lots of bad calls. I could see direct hits on the targets in the video where it sounded different and they often called misses. 

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Most of its been said but;

 

In my opinion no one should ever use "clang" as a means to determining a hit. Dead targets are one thing, but us cap and ball shooters shoot pure lead, almost, and they don't always "CLANG" when hitting the target. I have had misses called on me when I know I hit the target. Painting after each shooter would help but, not gonna happen.

Edgers don't clang all the time either. 

And finally targets don't always move when hit.

Stop BS'ing and keep your eye on the target, watch it hit.

Ike

 

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  We should always be open to better ways to operate especially at the big matches such a National and World Competition.  I feel it is worth the time to paint the targets.  I understand we will be on the range longer and the day will be pushed back, but they are important events that competitive shooters are paying an expensive price to be there.  Another method would be for clubs to certify their best spotters.  We video tape many of our shoots and are shocked that we see spotters looking around at each other to see what is being called.  There are many great spotters, and only the best should be spotting at our most important events.  All options need to be on the table.  I have been at big matches where the TO or Posse Marshal has politely pulled a spotter aside and asked them not to spot.  I understand there are pros and cons to every proposal but we can do better.

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1 hour ago, irish ike, SASS #43615 said:

Most of its been said but;

 

In my opinion no one should ever use "clang" as a means to determining a hit. Dead targets are one thing, but us cap and ball shooters shoot pure lead, almost, and they don't always "CLANG" when hitting the target. I have had misses called on me when I know I hit the target. Painting after each shooter would help but, not gonna happen.

Edgers don't clang all the time either. 

And finally targets don't always move when hit.

Stop BS'ing and keep your eye on the target, watch it hit.

Ike

 

Ike, not hearing a clang is not automatically a miss. I need at least 2 indicators to call a miss. Hearing a clang is a hit. (as long as its on correct target of course!) 

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It's actually pretty easy to tell if it's a miss. Just watch the shooter. When he says "oh man" or something along those lines (usually with a four letter word included) then you know it's a miss.

 

(It's a joke just in case folks think I am being serious)

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4 minutes ago, Redwood Kid said:

It's actually pretty easy to tell if it's a miss. Just watch the shooter. When he says "oh man" or something along those lines (usually with a four letter word included) then you know it's a miss.

 

(It's a joke just in case folks think I am being serious)

I know you are just making a joke, but there is a lot of true to what you said.  Shooters often know they earned a P even if the spotters missed it.

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Just my thoughts...

 

Steel.....damaged steel, with moon craters or cracks, and cupped plates need to be replaced; our plates have a mounting bracket on the back, with plow bolts; I remount the bracket on the other plate face to reverse the cupping; if a steel plate does not have a "ring" then there is something wrong with it.

 

Angle of Steel.....our brackets are mounted at the top edge of the steel, so that the plate bottom edge is further downrange compared to the top edge; forcing lead splatter downwards and in front of the plate; in front of the pistol targets we set up a 1"x12" lumber barrier to stop lead splatter coming back to the firing line; all of this creates a visual for seeing "hits".

 

Edgers and almost Edgers.....there may be no clang and there may be minimal plate movement, but if you see a bullet impact on the ground at an angle from the target edge(and downrange from the target), then that was an edger...i.e. a hit.

 

Target Paint.....spray paint goes on easy and also blows off easy; as a maintenance step, with clean or new plates I brush on flat black paint; it seems to last longer.

 

Firing Line Structures..... storefronts etc create a great ambiance, but interfere with line of sight for the counters....cut in windows for the counters.

 

Selecting Counters.....(the Tough issue)....most posse members are or can be good counters, when they are not distracted from counting; when possible, change counters; many good counters will initiate changing on their own; as a T/O you have be looking out for the posse member who is tired or has some physical issue precluding him/her from being a counter; ask this person to take a break from counting; diplomacy first.

 

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6 minutes ago, Marshal Chance Morgun said:

I know you are just making a joke, but there is a lot of true to what you said.  Shooters often know they earned a P even if the spotters missed it.

For sure. I made the comment mostly because I am that person that is cussing up a storm after each miss, which is a lot of cussing. Sometimes I run out of words during a stage.

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To be a good spotter you need to be paying attention.  Watch for the hit, listen for the hit, and at the same time watch for a miss. 

Some targets are dead, so you can't just listen for or the hit. Some ranges actually have grass, so you're not going to see a miss kick up dirt. 

Edgers - if a shooter is aiming down at the target and the "miss" kicks dirt up part way up the berm, you probably have an edger.  Make sure that when you paint targets you paint the edges.

 

BS

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4 hours ago, Hoss said:

 

 

My pet peave is to see a counter look at other counters to see what they are holding up. or even ask. I'll admit I have been distracted while counting, and do not know the actual count. then I admit I missed and show clean. 

As a TO this will give you fits! Spotters just call what you see fairly and change out spotters often as garrison Joe has already mentioned!

The other spotter that is difficult to deal with is the "politician", always running a campaign with the other spotters for hits and misses as "he" sees it!

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I think this is a common problem for a lot of clubs. I NEVER miss and I am always the FASTEST, but the counters never seem to see it that way. Neither does the timer!! Some one should really look into this for me too.

 

 

H.Wolf

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48 minutes ago, Redwood Kid said:

It's actually pretty easy to tell if it's a miss. Just watch the shooter. When he says "oh man" or something along those lines (usually with a four letter word included) then you know it's a miss.

 

(It's a joke just in case folks think I am being serious)

Typically, the better the shooter the less reaction if they have a miss or penalty. They are moving on and not waiting for the clang. Never confess.

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Well ...... Well Well ...... I shoot Cap Guns.  They make smoke.  Sometimes ... a LOT of smoke.  Many times the counters (lazy), don't want to move a little bit the better to actually SEE the targets (you know, LOOK at the targets??) and don't want to interrupt their most important conversation to pay attention.  It does seem spotters just don't want to be bothered by BP shooters.  Therefore > > > >

 

I think we should take those unconcerned spotters down range to the targets and NAIL their left boot (with foot in it) to the target base.  Get em close enough they will be sure to see and hear the hits and misses   :)

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^  all great observations above

 

I've been known to pass the counter's stick after several straight counts that don't agree with the others.  For whatever reason I'm not into it at that time and time to move on.

 

will say that scenarios that give a definite order seems to help as I know where the next bullet should be.  The stages that allow the shooter a choice on how to shoot the targets are tougher for me to count for--this isn't a problem in my mind just not something I'm good at doing

 

 

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1 hour ago, Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L said:

 

will say that scenarios that give a definite order seems to help as I know where the next bullet should be.  The stages that allow the shooter a choice on how to shoot the targets are tougher for me to count for--this isn't a problem in my mind just not something I'm good at doing

 

 

Have to agree.  I dislike "shooter's choice".  It's hard enough trying to be a good spotter.  But when you don't know where to look...

 

BS

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I don't shoot fast, but I do shoot gunfighter.  So one thing I do as a shooter to help spotters is I tell them how I'm going to shoot the stage if there's options.  It really throws me off too when they shoot in an order I wasn't expecting.  It's especially bad with shooters as fast as OKieDee.  I don't take the hits and misses too seriously, but I know some shooters do, so I always take the spotting job very serious. 

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Dee,  At those matches where I served as Posse Marshall, in preliminary instructions I tell everyone that when they are counting, as soon as the shooter finishes and before looking around, hold up your count.  Then you can look around to see what others are holding up.   Then, stand by your count unless there is convincing evidence that you were wrong if you called a miss and are convinced by the others that it was a hit  ie. Edge hit as shown by the evidence.  Benefit always goes to the shooter.

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11 hours ago, Oklahoma Dee said:

...What are some ways that could help counters become better and more understanding as to what is required of them?

 

1.  No mouse loads.  Watching the first target.  Target didn't move, no clang, no bang from the Shooter's revolver.  I'm thinking Shooter must be having a gun problem so I look at the Shooter.  He's cocking the hammer and pulling the trigger.  How can a Spotter spot?

 

2.  Shooter hits the center of the target?

 

3.  Design the stages so the Spotters can spread out.  

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I usually count all the time.  There are times I won't.  One of those times are when I'm tired.  Other times I can't explain it, but if I feel I will not do my best, then I step aside.  Unloading table is good for me.  I will move when I'm able, but stage design does limit moving to be able to see better.  

Have I made errors? Yes!!  I don't dwell on them because I know I've made some good calls when I was the only one that saw it.  It's not perfect, and maybe I give too much benefit to the shooter, but it's what we have.  

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9 hours ago, Howlin' Wolf said:

I think this is a common problem for a lot of clubs. I NEVER miss and I am always the FASTEST, but the counters never seem to see it that way. Neither does the timer!! Some one should really look into this for me too.

 

 

H.Wolf

Don't you remember we did look into this........ and you were wrong!:lol::lol:;)

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