Reload recipes: go high or go low?

[Sgt. Saywut]

I’ve been looking at Hodgdon’s reloading database for modern 44-40 recipes, and they have two bullet weights:  160 and 200 grains.   If I have 180-grain bullets, which recipe should I use, the one for 160-grain bullets, or the one for 200-grain bullets? I’ll be reloading close to the low end of the selected recipe.   I’d like to err on the side of caution;  in this case, is it simply a matter of personal preference?

[J.D. Daily]

If you use TrailBoss a smokeless powder designed for 19th century black powder cartridges. there is a formula on the Hodgdon website. to determine powder charge for any bullet weight.

[Ripsaw]

Another reason to check multiple reloading references--Hodgdon, Alliant, Western Powders, Speer, Lymans, internet sites, etc. all have load data. Keep checking until you find a reference for  your bullet weight.   All the powder mfg's have free guides that you can download as pdfs.  

 

Failing that, however, if you must interpolate a load, then you are usually safer using the load data for a heavier bullet and substituting a lighter bullet. The heavier the bullet for a given charge weight, the higher the pressure, so a lighter bullet will yield lower pressures.  The risk is that the lower bullet weight with a very light charge intended for a heavier bullet, may result in too low muzzle velocity, and, in the extreme, a squib.  So just take it slow and use a chronograph to validate your expectations.  

 

Another approach, for experienced reloaders, is looking for a similar case size (45 colt in this case) with that bullet size, and work from there. For example, this is a common practice with loading C45S, as many 45ACP loads are good starting points. 

 

Note that all of the above is predicated on loads of fast powders that yield velocities commonly used in CAS, that is, in the neighborhood of 500-700 fps.  Some powders are regularly reported to be sensitive to low charge weights--2400, HS6, 296--but these are only appropriate for full power high velocity loads and should not be what you would use for CAS.  

 

 

 

[Sgt. Saywut]

I am indeed using Trail Boss, but the Hodgdon database lists only 200-grain bullets in a single recipe with that powder.  Where is this formula of which you speak?  Is there a link?

[Sedalia Dave]

How to load Trail Boss for any Cartridge / bullet weight

 

https://imrpowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/11/trail-boss-reduced-loads-r_p.pdf

 

 

[Sgt. Saywut]

Thanks for the advice thus far, folks.  It is most appreciated!

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

If your load is going to be used in a rifle, you're wasting your time by going to the low end. In my experience, low end loads with TB (or any other powder) can be erratic. Perceived recoil is just that, perceived. The difference between low and mid-range loads isn't tangible. In pistols, I think the trade off in recoil is minimal and not worth the effort.

 

I did this "race to the bottom" with large calibers when I first started in CAS. Absolutely no benefit, IMHO. Stick to mid-range loads or switch cases/calibers if low recoil is your primary objective.

[John Boy]

SGT, because I am such a nice guy looking up all the information for you, I drink Lagavulin 1987 Single Malt at $763 a bottle.  Can I send you my mailing address?

 

http://www.gunnersden.com/index.htm.muzzleloader-gunpowder-substitutes.html

Hodgdon Triple Seven:
 Hodgdon Triple Seven is sulfur free and virtually odorless, the residue left in the barrel is water soluable and can be cleaned anywhere with just plain water. Use Triple Seven only in a 209 primer ignition system. Triple Seven is a sulfurless black powder substitute. Triple Seven is more energetic than black powder, producing higher velocities and pressures. Still burning carbon, the carbon-based fuel burned here is from the sugar family, not from charcoal. Triple Seven is more energetic than black powder and can be substituted at a 1:1 ratio by volume for black powder. To duplicate the velocity in a black powder load using Triple Seven, you must decrease the powder charge by 15%.

 

ORIGIONAL BLACK Powder 44-40 Loading Data: 200gr bullet = 39gr FFG at 820 fps so...  39gr x 0.85% = 33.15gr Triple Seven

Your 180gr bullet calculation for the Triple Seven powder charge:
200gr:39 = 180gr:x equals 35gr FFg of black powder.  So 35 gr of BP x 0.85 = 29.75gr of Triple Seven
Triple Seven FFFG: The principle use for Triple Seven FFFG is in all pistols and in smaller bore rifles, 45 caliber and down. Triple Seven FFFG is also useful as a priming charge in muzzleloaders that have ignition problems. Triple Seven FFFG compares to 3F black powder on a granular size basis.

Triple Seven FFG: The principle use for Triple Seven FFG is in all calibers of percussion muzzle-loading rifles and shotguns. It has a wide application of uses, burns cleaner and produces less fouling than Pyrodex RS. Triple Seven FFG compares to 2F black powder on a granular size basis.

[John Boy]

SGT - Note:  You use Triple Seven FFG powder

[Sgt. Saywut]

JB - thanks, but I’ll stick to smokeless powder for now.  Trail Boss is what I’ve been using. 

[Cowboy Junky]

I think most people start off high because they buy ammo that's pretty hot for SASS. So they get a press and then since they hear people talking about "light" loads so much they go full swing in the other direction....too low really.  Then in time you learn going too light can be counterproductive if your goal is to shoot fast...........lol

 

I had a great mentor tell me that for years and I fought it for a while.......then I realized he was right so I'm shooting heavier loads again......go figure. 

[J-BAR #18287]

Call Hodgdon and ask to speak to one of the folks in the lab.  They are friendly and know their powders better than anyone else.

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

10 hours ago, John Boy said:

Triple Seven FFFG: The principle use for Triple Seven FFFG is in all pistols and in smaller bore rifles, 45 caliber and down. Triple Seven FFFG is also useful as a priming charge in muzzleloaders that have ignition problems. Triple Seven FFFG compares to 3F black powder on a granular size basis.

 

John Boy, my bottle of 777 fffg says in red letters on the bottle, "Not for use in Cartridges". Has something changed recently?

[John Boy]

Quote

John Boy, my bottle of 777 fffg says in red letters on the bottle, "Not for use in Cartridges". Has something changed recently?

 

Slim:  Can't understand why the wording is now on the T7 containers - Mine don't have that wording.

Might want to give Hodgdon a call and ask why.  MAybe it's just for the FFFg grade.

The Saga of My 1st BPCR and T7:

My 1st BPCR was the H&R buffalo Classic and went to the range for the rifle's virgin shoot with Big Lube 500gr bullets with the calculated reduced ratio of T7. Took 20 rounds: 15 for 100yd base line setting on the vernier... I was a novice green horn then   With the 5 rounds left, went over to the club's 600yd range.  Cranked up 153 MOA on the vernier and just kept loading and pulling the trigger.  Couldn't see any holes on the target in the pit- 90 plus and a running mirage.  So 2 club members and I drove down to the pit.  In the 7 ring were 5 holes grouped 5.5" by 6.0" with three holes that could have been covered with a silver dollar ... I've been addicted to more BPCR's and shooting them even since

PS: The only reason I used T7 with the Big Lube bullet wa because it was so designed I couldn't put the proper amount BP in the case

 

Also, I called Hodgdon for a load charge of T& in a 30-30.  The reloads about tore my face off from the recoil - that ended my use forever shooting Tripe Seven

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

Howdy John Boy, the warning is just for the FFFg granulation, where FFg is fine for cartridges. FFFg is for muzzle loaders only.

 

Just made the call to Hodgdon to be sure, and they have confirmed this. 777 FFg is my go to powder when I run out of BP or Big Lube bullets.

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

2 powders that work very well for the 44WCF, are WW/231 and Unique.

Trail boss at min loads gets iffy in cold weather and suggest a mag primer and firm roll crimp.

 

OLG

[John Boy]

Quote

Howdy John Boy, the warning is just for the FFFg granulation, where FFg is fine for cartridges. FFFg is for muzzle loaders only.

Thanks Slim for the Hodgdon final words.  Book mark your post cause sure as the moon's gonna come up - there's going to be a future post about using T7 FFg or FFFg

[Canton Chris]

I use Clays under a 168gr bullet with good results.

[H. K. Uriah, SASS #74619]

On ‎3‎/‎5‎/‎2018 at 10:19 PM, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

If your load is going to be used in a rifle, you're wasting your time by going to the low end. In my experience, low end loads with TB (or any other powder) can be erratic. Perceived recoil is just that, perceived. The difference between low and mid-range loads isn't tangible. In pistols, I think the trade off in recoil is minimal and not worth the effort.

 

I did this "race to the bottom" with large calibers when I first started in CAS. Absolutely no benefit, IMHO. Stick to mid-range loads or switch cases/calibers if low recoil is your primary objective.

 

I have seen other people post this, so I admit it must be a real thing.

That being said, I pretty much always use the minimum load for Trailboss, either published amount or using the formula, in all my pistol type rounds, and it always works fine for me.   Calibers I have used this for include...

 

.32 S&W

.32S&W Long

.32-20

.32 Nagant Short (My personal name for the cartridge you get using .32-20 brass to make ammo for the Nagant pistol)

.38 S&W

.38 Short Colt

.38 Long Colt

.38 Special

.357 Magnum

.44-40

.44 Special

.44 Magnum

.45 Autorim

.45 Colt

56-50 Spencer

 

For .45 ACP, for use in revolvers I use the same load for Autorim  For use in my 1911's, I use a load just slightly over the minimum

 

I don't use it for other autoloading pistol rounds.  It does not generate enough pressure to work the action.  It ALMOST works for .38 Super.  If I ever get a gun in .38 ACP, I'll give it a try there.

 

For rifle loads however, I tend to use a load that it is just slightly under the max.  This includes...

 

.30-30

.30-40

.30-'06

7mm Mauser

8mm Mauser

.32 Winchester Special

 

For .45-70, I go back to the minimum load.

 

The .30-'06 round is only for use in bolt action rifles.   For use in things like the M1, I work up a load identical to the military loading.

 

Take it all with a grain of salt.   Why it works for me and not for others, I do not know.