18 yrs old gun purchases

[Rye Miles #13621]

Someone on Facebook brought up a good question. Since purchase of a long gun by anyone 18 yrs or older is a federal law (I think) Isn't Dick's and Wal mart breaking the law? Are they allowed to set their own policy on something that's covered under federal law?

 

If they are breaking the law look for some lawsuits!!

[Trailrider #896]

I'm not constipational (uh...Constitutional) lawyer, but I would suspect that as private organizations, they can decide to not to sell whatever they please.  Federal law currently only states that 18 year olds MAY purchase a long-gun.  It doesn't say anybody has to sell to an 18-year old.  It also doesn't mean that anyone OVER 21 has to buy ANYTHING from these companies, either! [Note: I am NOT advocating a boycott! Just sayin'....]

[Smoky Pistols]

From the ATF website:

Does a customer have to be a certain age to buy firearms or ammunition from a licensee?

 

Yes. Under the Gun Control Act (GCA), shotguns and rifles, and ammunition for shotguns or rifles may be sold only to individuals 18 years of age or older. All firearms other than shotguns and rifles, and all ammunition other than ammunition for shotguns or rifles may be sold only to individuals 21 years of age or older. Licensees are bound by the minimum age requirements established by the GCA regardless of State or local law. However, if State law or local ordinances establish a higher minimum age for the purchase or disposition of firearms, the licensee must observe the higher age requirement.

[18 U.S.C. 922(b)(1) and (b)(2); 27 CFR 478.99(b)]

 

That's not to say that the stores aren't violating someone's constitutional right to bear arms (That was me, not the ATF)-Sp

[Shooting Bull]

This dog isn't going to hunt.  No shirt, no shoes, no service.  Same concept applies.  As long as they don't violate any anti-discrimination laws, businesses can do business with whomever they choose. You MIGHT be able to mount an age discrimination law suite against them, but I wouldn't put my money on that horse.  (Two animal references in one post.  )

[Irish Tom]

The dealer has the right to sell, or not sell to anyone he or she pleases, as long as they don't discriminate.

 

[Rye Miles #13621]

That's kinda what I thought but thanks for the answers~

[Badlands Bob #61228]

When I started working at the Sheriff's Dept at age 19, the Sheriff loaned me a pistol till I could get my own.  I had to get my mother to buy my pistol and bullets.  I could legally carry a pistol but I couldn't buy one myself or any bullets for it.   It was not really an obstacle.  Just a mere inconvenience.

[Wapaloosie73]

Isn’t this age discrimination?

[Volga Vigilante]

But a gay couple can sue a flower shop for not selling them flowers for their wedding?

[Alpo]

That's my thought.

 

If refusing to sell to ANYONE that's black, or ANYONE that's Jewish, or ANYONE that's homosexual, is discrimination, then it seems that refusing to sell to ANYONE that's under 21 is also discrimination.

 

If they don't want to sell to Wapaloosie because he's drunk, or don't want to sell to me because I'm a smartass, that's fine. They have to right to refuse service to anyone. On a case-by-case basis.

 

But refusing to serve a GROUP of people, because they are a member of THAT GROUP, just seems like discrimination to me.

[Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474]

I find it ........................ puzzling that people want to kill, in the manner we are seeing.

I went to school in Northern Alberta, hunted with my Father and took a rifle or shotgun to school during the hunting season, keeping it in the classroom cloak room, , during classes.

I never felt that I should shoot someone because of a school yard or class room incident.

I keep wondering What the hell happened in the ensuing years?

 

[Three Foot Johnson]

1 hour ago, Alpo said:

That's my thought.

 

If refusing to sell to ANYONE that's black, or ANYONE that's Jewish, or ANYONE that's homosexual, is discrimination, then it seems that refusing to sell to ANYONE that's under 21 is also discrimination.

Age is not a race, religion, or gender, which is what discrimination under the law covers.

 

The law says a buyer must be at least 18 to by a long gun, and 21 to buy a handgun, but the dealer can set more restrictive standards if they so wish, but they can't say, "I'm not selling this rifle to you because you're (gay/black/Catholic)." I wonder just how far a lawsuit would go if it were a gay gun dealer saying, "I'm not going to sell this rifle to you because you're a white heterosexual."

[Charlie Whiskers]

1 hour ago, Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474 said:

I find it ........................ puzzling that people want to kill, in the manner we are seeing.

I went to school in Northern Alberta, hunted with my Father and took a rifle or shotgun to school during the hunting season, keeping it in the classroom cloak room, , during classes.

I never felt that I should shoot someone because of a school yard or class room incident.

I keep wondering What the hell happened in the ensuing years?

 

 

  I'd say what happened is the lack of upbringing. Parents want kids...then they ship them off to a school each day and expect the teachers and society to raise and teach them morals and principles. That way they can go about they're well established days and blame everyone else when something goes wrong.

  When you and I were growing up your parents taught you right and wrong. They taught you the way to treat people and expect to be treated the same in return. For the most part that worked very well for the society of the time. And when we were growing up and wanted something we worked for it. Today they expect to just have it handed to them. 

  Today, if something goes wrong with "little Johnny" it's everyone else's fault not theirs because they were/are too busy to raise the kids right. Also they won't teach kids today to grow a backbone stand up for yourself and settle your problems  instead of running home and whining that they were bullied and then shoot up the school to get even with the bully. Grow a set.

 

That's my take of what's going on today....right or wrong.

[Rye Miles #13621]

6 hours ago, Charlie Whiskers said:

 

  I'd say what happened is the lack of upbringing. Parents want kids...then they ship them off to a school each day and expect the teachers and society to raise and teach them morals and principles. That way they can go about they're well established days and blame everyone else when something goes wrong.

  When you and I were growing up your parents taught you right and wrong. They taught you the way to treat people and expect to be treated the same in return. For the most part that worked very well for the society of the time. And when we were growing up and wanted something we worked for it. Today they expect to just have it handed to them. 

  Today, if something goes wrong with "little Johnny" it's everyone else's fault not theirs because they were/are too busy to raise the kids right. Also they won't teach kids today to grow a backbone stand up for yourself and settle your problems  instead of running home and whining that they were bullied and then shoot up the school to get even with the bully. Grow a set.

 

That's my take of what's going on today....right or wrong.

I agree but parents don't always want kids, they just have 'em. There's mothers out there with 2 or 3 kids with 2 or 3 different fathers. That was very very very rare 50-60 years ago! Now it's almost commonplace in many neighborhoods!

[Duffield, SASS #23454]

7 hours ago, Charlie Whiskers said:

 

  I'd say what happened is the lack of upbringing. Parents want kids...then they ship them off to a school each day and expect the teachers and society to raise and teach them morals and principles. That way they can go about they're well established days and blame everyone else when something goes wrong.

  When you and I were growing up your parents taught you right and wrong. They taught you the way to treat people and expect to be treated the same in return. For the most part that worked very well for the society of the time. And when we were growing up and wanted something we worked for it. Today they expect to just have it handed to them. 

  Today, if something goes wrong with "little Johnny" it's everyone else's fault not theirs because they were/are too busy to raise the kids right. Also they won't teach kids today to grow a backbone stand up for yourself and settle your problems  instead of running home and whining that they were bullied and then shoot up the school to get even with the bully. Grow a set.

 

That's my take of what's going on today....right or wrong.

That, and our entertainment industry has taught kids that violence is the way to settle everything.  Just last night a commercial break during the ll:00 news ran a trailer for a movie (which will remain nameless) that had the protagonist becoming a vigilante to get "justice" for himself.

We have worked so hard and both parents in the work force to have a good standard of living that we left our children to be raised by television and movies, and they get a constant diet of this BS.  Then we wonder why they act it out when their feelings get hurt by other kids or a teacher that demands performance.

Tipper Gore was right!

 

Duffield

[Brett Black]

13 hours ago, Trailrider #896 said:

I'm not constipational (uh...Constitutional) lawyer, but I would suspect that as private organizations, they can decide to not to sell whatever they please.  Federal law currently only states that 18 year olds MAY purchase a long-gun.  It doesn't say anybody has to sell to an 18-year old.  It also doesn't mean that anyone OVER 21 has to buy ANYTHING from these companies, either! [Note: I am NOT advocating a boycott! Just sayin'....]

That's what the cake maker told Adam and Steve and got sued over it .

Government made them make and sell to any and all customers.  

So .

What is the difference  ? 

[Clay Mosby]

They are no longer being taught respect for anything but force. They don't respect life, property, the law, or even themselves. Without a strong family atmosphere they fall into the grasp of local thugs and gangs. There they are valued as an asset. As long as they are useful fine, if not they are disposable. Is it any wonder we're seeing more and more of these immoral, psychotic animals in society? I see it all the time in the parking lot of our local supermarket. Assaults, vandalism, theft, drug deals, you name it. According to a store owner I talked to the police are called there at least once a day, several stores have armed security now, and I personally have been verbally confronted a couple of times.  That's when I appreciate having a 108 pound German Shepherd with me when I go there.

 

[Utah Bob #35998]

9 hours ago, Wapaloosie73 said:

Isn’t this age discrimination?

Nope.

[Irish Tom]

As I recall, age discrimination laws protect people over 40.

[Smoken D]

What I felt as interesting is that you can carry a handgun in the military at age 18, even die for your country at that age, but it you get out at age 20 cannot purchase a handgun or ammo for that gun.

Kinda like back in Nam times, you could fire any gun you wanted in the army at 18, but you couldn't vote or drink alcohol in civilian life at that age (except certain states). Always been a mess dealing with age things.

[Alpo]

11 hours ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said:

When I started working at the Sheriff's Dept at age 19, the Sheriff loaned me a pistol till I could get my own.  I had to get my mother to buy my pistol and bullets.  I could legally carry a pistol but I couldn't buy one myself or any bullets for it.   It was not really an obstacle.  Just a mere inconvenience.

 

And that, friends and neighbors, is a straw purchase.

 

I was in the same predicament. I got a 22 rifle for my 18th birthday, but GCA68 said that 22 ammo was "pistol ammo", and you had to be 21 to buy it. My mother had to buy my ammo for the next three years.

[Irish Tom]

1 hour ago, Alpo said:

 

And that, friends and neighbors, is a straw purchase.

 

I was in the same predicament. I got a 22 rifle for my 18th birthday, but GCA68 said that 22 ammo was "pistol ammo", and you had to be 21 to buy it. My mother had to buy my ammo for the next three years.

 

Very fine line between straw purchase and buying gun and ammo as a gift for someone.

 

Irish Tom

[Badlands Bob #61228]

1 hour ago, Alpo said:

 

And that, friends and neighbors, is a straw purchase.

 

 

Things were a little different in small rural town North Georgia 40 years ago.  

[Alpo]

4 hours ago, Irish Tom said:

 

Very fine line between straw purchase and buying gun and ammo as a gift for someone.

 

Irish Tom

Actually, no.

 

If Mama buys me a brick of 22s for Christmas (as she did all three years), that's fine. Perfectly legal. Gift.

 

If, however, I hand her a ten and ask her to go buy me a brick of 22s because I am not old enough to buy them myself, that's a straw purchase.

 

Now, if Bob's Mama decided that her son needed a gun to do the job he wanted to do, and went and bought it for him, that's fine. I've given guns to several people (relatives) - both brothers, my nephew, my daughter, my ex (prior to her being ex). Buying a gun, with your money, with the intention of giving it to someone - legal.

 

But if Bob said, "Mom, I need a gun to be a cop, and I'm too young to buy one myself. So here's 150 dollars. Would you go down to Joe's Gun Shoppe and buy me a 4" Model 19 S&W?", and she says, "Sure, Bobby, not a problem", that was a straw purchase.

 

Now, it was forty years ago, and long past the statute of limitations, but still, 40 years is 1978, and the law went into effect in 1968, so - it was a no-no.

 

In the late 60s/early 70s, when they rewrote the law to make 18-year-olds adults, and they could drink and vote and run for office and join the cops, there was a little blurb in the American Rifleman about that exact thing. 18-year-old, joined the cops in Miami, and had to get his mother to buy his gun and his ammo, because he wasn't old enough.  The point I believe they were making is, "Boy, this law is stupid". I completely agree.

[Three Foot Johnson]

18 hours ago, Badlands Bob #61228 said:

When I started working at the Sheriff's Dept at age 19, the Sheriff loaned me a pistol till I could get my own.  I had to get my mother to buy my pistol and bullets.  I could legally carry a pistol but I couldn't buy one myself or any bullets for it.   It was not really an obstacle.  Just a mere inconvenience.

 

6 hours ago, Alpo said:

 

And that, friends and neighbors, is a straw purchase.

 

I was in the same predicament. I got a 22 rifle for my 18th birthday, but GCA68 said that 22 ammo was "pistol ammo", and you had to be 21 to buy it. My mother had to buy my ammo for the next three years.

Possibly - it depends on some details. If Bob gave his own money to his mother to buy the pistol, then yes, it would be considered a straw purchase, as he was not legally able to buy it himself. However, if his mother didn't take any money or services from him in exchange for buying the pistol (paint the house, mow the lawn, whatever), then it was a gift and perfectly legit, as he was able to legally able to possess the gun at 19.

While working the gun counter at Sportsman's Warehouse, if Hank filled out a 4473 to buy a gun, then we walked him up to the front to pay for it where he found he forgot his checkbook, he turned to his buddy Joe and said, "Joe, I forgot my checkbook, can you spot me some money?", then the sale was off. HOWEVER, Joe could buy a $529.97 gift card right there in front of me, give that to his buddy to pay for the gun, and everything was fine again.

 

(edit) Dang, Alpo beat me by a  few seconds.

[Irish Tom]

Alpo.

       You are absolutely correct. It comes down to intent of the buyer and weather money exchanged hands, before or after the sale. As a seller, I  have no way of knowing what the intent of the buyer is unless they give me some reason to suspect something is not quite right. I have actually had this happen and I stopped the sale. Customer was not happy, but I refused to sell to him. Either way, it's hard and sometimes impossible to know what the buyers intent is and all one can do is trust that the people at NICS are doing their job.

 

Irish Tom.

[Ramblin Gambler]

Louisiana has (or had when I was in college) a state constitutional amendment that prevented age discrimination against anyone who was an adult.  As a result, LA was one of the last places where you actually had to be 21 to buy alcohol.  Sure, the law said you had to be 21 because they wanted to road money, but in practice it was a violation of the 18 year old's rights to deny the sale based on age alone. 

 

AFAIK, that got canceled somehow.  But if it is still in effect, then dicks and wal mart will run afoul of LA law doing this. 

[Badlands Bob #61228]

I guess Mama is a criminal.  I'll have to tell her next time I see her.  She'll get a kick out of that.  She's always been a bit of a rebel, in a very lady like southern way.

[Henry T Harrison]

Back when I worked in a small local gun store the owner had a simple rule, If you weren't comfortable making a sale let it walk

[Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474]

On ‎2018‎-‎03‎-‎02 at 9:49 AM, Alpo said:

 

And that, friends and neighbors, is a straw purchase.

 

I was in the same predicament. I got a 22 rifle for my 18th birthday, but GCA68 said that 22 ammo was "pistol ammo", and you had to be 21 to buy it. My mother had to buy my ammo for the next three years.

Funny. I lived on an RCAF base and bought my .22 and 12 ga. ammo at the base exchange when I was 10 or 11.

Hard to imagine how much Canada has changed since then.

[evil dogooder]

On Thursday, March 01, 2018 at 11:48 PM, J Bar Binks, #47015 said:

Age is not a race, religion, or gender, which is what discrimination under the law covers.

 

The law says a buyer must be at least 18 to by a long gun, and 21 to buy a handgun, but the dealer can set more restrictive standards if they so wish, but they can't say, "I'm not selling this rifle to you because you're (gay/black/Catholic)." I wonder just how far a lawsuit would go if it were a gay gun dealer saying, "I'm not going to sell this rifle to you because you're a white heterosexual."

Only in some states.  There are 19 that have age discrimination laws.  I know of two laws suits already going against walmart and dicks for age discrimination for not selling a gun to someone under 21. I'd expect to see more once the word is out

[Chili Ron]

Howdy,

Skipping over other comments......

I would bet an 18 year old female of any minority could 

sure sue if refused a legal sale of a rifle.

 

It could be interesting to watch.......

I bet those sorts of lawsuits aren't far away.

Even if the LAW changes, the Constitution probably wont change.

Probably.

Best

CR

 

[Pat Riot]

BiMart, a small department store chain here in the Northwest has now posted signs that everyone must be 21 or older to purchase long guns.

 

The only semi-autos in long guns that they sell are .22s. I am assuming they don’t want any of “their” guns being used to do what that fruit loop did in Florida.

 

Just a little more proof of the mental cancer running rampant in this country.

 

I propose that since 18 year olds cannot be trusted or aren’t mature enough to buy guns and they cannot legally drink that they are also not old enough to logically vote. 

In addition, since they are not mature enough to buy or handle guns or drink and since they shouldn’t be voting they should be sllowed to serve in the military.

 

Therefore only 21 and older can join the military. So, this will cause some personnel issues in the military and as a stop gap measure I propose that ALL college students at age 21 must go to an AFEES station and commence testing and selection of branch for military service.

 

This will serve to bolster our military and put a cessation to the Socialist and PC cancer that affects young minds and perhaps in a generation fix this country.

 

This stop gap measure would also put the country in turmoil because little Johnny and Suzie would get real educations and not brainwashing and lots of people in this country would not like that, now would they?

 

[Sedalia Dave]

On 3/1/2018 at 10:50 PM, Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474 said:

I find it ........................ puzzling that people want to kill, in the manner we are seeing.

I went to school in Northern Alberta, hunted with my Father and took a rifle or shotgun to school during the hunting season, keeping it in the classroom cloak room, , during classes.

I never felt that I should shoot someone because of a school yard or class room incident.

I keep wondering What the hell happened in the ensuing years?

 

 

Social Media

[J-BAR #18287]

On 3/1/2018 at 11:48 PM, J Bar Binks, #47015 said:

I wonder just how far a lawsuit would go if it were a gay gun dealer saying, "I'm not going to sell this rifle to you because you're a white heterosexual."

 

Probably not far.  White heterosexuals are not a class protected by any anti- discrimination law.