65 rounds fired, NO one hit

[Texas Lizard]

Maybe there are some problems here...http://abc7.com/video-norcal-police-fire-65-bullets-at-suspected-killer/3159244/

 

When you need a cop, do want to call them...Sounds like they could not hit the barn standing five feet away...A little more practice, maybe...

 

Texas Lizard

[Eyesa Horg]

Seems they'd suck at our game.

 

 

No offense intended toward our brave LEO's

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

The vast majority of users of the gun, whom haven't been in a gunfight, don't have the foggiest idea of where the gun is actually pointed.  Most are tunnel vision toward the source of the problem, not an actual target, with absolutely no focus at all on the gun sights.  Been there.  Seen it right up close and personal.  

[Forty Rod SASS 3935]

Make me wonder where all those bullets went.  Property damage, people scared out of their wits, Fido wounded?

 

Saw a lot of that sort of thing when we lived out our forty year sentence in California.

[Sixgun Sheridan]

True story from the time of the Old West: two saloon patrons who sitting at a card table in the back got into a heated argument, stood up and drew their pistols. They literally chased each other around the table firing at each other while the other panicked customers sprinted for the nearest exit. In the end both men were left with empty pistols, lots of holes in the walls and furniture, and not a single mark on each other. Upon realizing this they had a laugh and sat back down for some more drinks.

[Utah Bob #35998]

Let the cop bashing begin.

[Badlands Bob #61228]

Gonna take a lot of Eternabond tape to fix all those holes.

[Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967]

Gonna be one whistlin' Winnebago...

 

Bet there were some beers downed that night.

[Texas Lizard]

2 hours ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

Let the cop bashing begin.

Never, but I am questioning there training...

 

TL

[Widder, SASS #59054]

My guess is that none of those bullets had the right name on em... 

 

I ain't an LEO.   But even though I have slept at a Holiday Inn Express,  I can imagine myself firing a semi-auto pistol empty and not hitting the intended target, ESPECIALLY if that target is firing back.

 

I do agree that those LEO's who fired 65 rounds and missed should either update their training techniques or carry a different firearm..... maybe a shotgun.

 

..........Widder

 

[Noz]

There are statistics about how many rounds were fired per casualty in WWII. It is mind boggling.

[Trailrider #896]

5 hours ago, Sixgun Sheridan said:

True story from the time of the Old West: two saloon patrons who sitting at a card table in the back got into a heated argument, stood up and drew their pistols. They literally chased each other around the table firing at each other while the other panicked customers sprinted for the nearest exit. In the end both men were left with empty pistols, lots of holes in the walls and furniture, and not a single mark on each other. Upon realizing this they had a laugh and sat back down for some more drinks.

Read of something similar happening.  When the two idiots got through emptying their guns, the townspeople were so sick of them, they hanged 'em!

[Sixgun Sheridan]

2 hours ago, Noz said:

There are statistics about how many rounds were fired per casualty in WWII. It is mind boggling.

 

Allegedly it took an average of 50,000 rounds to kill each enemy combatant in Vietnam. This wasn't a reflection of our soldiers' shooting skills as much as it was the practice of saturating areas with gunfire in the hope of killing a mostly invisible enemy.

 

Of course I doubt the police in this scenario were applying the same tactic...

[Birdgun Quail, SASS #63663]

6 hours ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

The vast majority of users of the gun, whom haven't been in a gunfight, don't have the foggiest idea of where the gun is actually pointed.  Most are tunnel vision toward the source of the problem, not an actual target, with absolutely no focus at all on the gun sights.  Been there.  Seen it right up close and personal.  

I suspect I would have tunnel vision also.  So when I go to the range with my self defense guns, I just focus on the target.  I'm getting better at putting my rounds on target.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

It has nothing do with "Cop Bashing."  It has to do with Fear Management.  When you are afraid for your life, and your adrenaline level is max'd and you don't have much experience at being shot at, maintaining focus can be problematic.  Been There, Seen that first hand.  Don't be so quick to condemn someone  whom has just survived a situation where they were trying to pee their pants, empty there bowels and shoot all at the same time.  Tough act to follow.

[DocWard]

Too soon?
 

[Utah Bob #35998]

1 hour ago, Colorado Coffinmaker said:

It has nothing do with "Cop Bashing."  It has to do with Fear Management.  When you are afraid for your life, and your adrenaline level is max'd and you don't have much experience at being shot at, maintaining focus can be problematic.  Been There, Seen that first hand.  Don't be so quick to condemn someone  whom has just survived a situation where they were trying to pee their pants, empty there bowels and shoot all at the same time.  Tough act to follow.

I think you misunderstood my post.

[Wild Will Bartell]

27 minutes ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

I think ypumisunderstood my post.

Yep, we sure do need that sarcasm emoticon....

[Calamity Kris]

I thought SF had strict rules about possessing firearms.  Didn't anyone tell the bad guys?  What were they doing shooting at the cops?????

[Subdeacon Joe]

Odd, isn't it?  We are told by a certain group of people that only LEOs are competent and safe with firearms.

[Texas Lizard]

2 hours ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

I think you misunderstood my post.

I think I did not read it correctly and jump into it too fast...I need to watch this...

 

TL

[Chili Ron]

Howdy,

I had and still have several longtime friends who are police.

They mostly have too much going on to practice very much.

If every county had a decent shooting range it would help a LOT.

One private range in the Chicago burbs has a lot of stories about

how things go wrong.

Shot by mistake seems to be on the news a lot.

Best

CR

 

[W. D. Pickett]

20 hours ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

Let the cop bashing begin.

First, let me say that I have been involved in a shooting while I was in law enforcement.  I would not bash my brother officers, but having seen just about the same thing at the intersection of Airline Hwy and Sherwood Forest Blvd where over 100 rounds were fired, the words of Bill Jordon come to mind.  Speed is fine, accuracy is fatal.  One thing that I did see which I wonder about, is why some of them did not seek cover.  It is easy to sit back and Monday Morning Quarterback this incident, but I would use it as a training tool and learn from the mistakes made.  Police officers are human and have to overcome fear just like anyone else. 

[Charlie Plasters, SASS#60943]

Nother true story from the old West : couple of bad guys robbed a saloon in Winslow and escaped to  Canyon Diablo City. The sheriff and a deputy caught a train and pursued them there. They were confronted on the street and at near point blank range all drew their pistols and commenced firing. After each had emptied his 5 shots with no one being hit , the deputy who anticipated trouble dropped one of the robbers with his 6th shot. Or so the story goes. 

[evil dogooder]

Not bashing  cops. But look at the facts. 65 rounds fired. Didn't hit a thing.  There is something very wrong with this.   Either more training is needed or the wrong people were hired for the job.

[Sixgun Sheridan]

I agree, if this was considered perfectly acceptable it wouldn't have made the news to begin with. It has nothing to do with bashing cops. It's a lesson for civilians as well, for you can't miss fast enough to solve the problem.

[Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967]

Well... if the dude was in the motor home, they didn't exactly have a clear target...  

[Dutch Nichols, SASS #6461]

Colorado had it the most right, try hitting anything when an adrenaline dump hits and you start shaking all

over....violently....and no you can't control it, you can only ride it out.

Nothing to do with training or lack there of, has to do with the human reaction

auditory occlusion, tunnel vision, shakes, etc.

 I know of highly trained rangers in country who the first time under fire

couldn't stop shaking to reload under fire....think they were trained enough?

 easy to  be a chairborn ranger or keyboard commando

This type of thing happens every day in America,just doesn't get reported.

 

 These days we should be glad anyone wants a career in law enforcement.

 

[Utah Bob #35998]

Firstly, we don’t know the layout of the RV. What was he using for cover? Expecting a hollowpoint 9mm or 223 round to penetrate multiple layers of rv skin, insulation, furniture, appliances, etc is maybe unrealistic. Secondly, he was concealed so there was no clear target. They were firing in response to the rounds coming at them. It would have been nice if he was in the clear like a high noon shootout but it never happens that way unfortunately. I don’t know exactly how many offices fired but there were a lot of them there. Maybe 75 rounds isn’t really that bad.

And lastly, I would prefer to see the results of the shooting board investigation, which will be a whopper, before I would venture to comment on the actions at the scene, or make an evaluation of deficient past training or the need for additional future training.

Years ago, one of my officers was involved in a shootout with a mentally ill subject. In broad daylight, at a distance of about 5 yards, he missed 6 shots with his 357 and had to reload from cover. Three more rounds before the susbject went down with a mortal hit.

This officer was one of the best in the district. Mature, well trained, and experienced. He was also an excellent shot, in the top two or three at every firearms qualification. And yet.....he missed.

So in cases like this, when people inevitably make comments about poor marksmanship, and how SASS shooters are better etc. I can only recall the old Indian proverb about walking a mile in another man’s moccasins. 

 

I’m very glad to be retired. 

[evil dogooder]

2 hours ago, Hardpan Curmudgeon SASS #8967 said:

Well... if the dude was in the motor home, they didn't exactly have a clear target...  

If they didn't have a clear target then why were they shooting? 

[Utah Bob #35998]

Just now, evil dogooder said:

If they didn't have a clear target then why were they shooting? 

Probably to keep him from killing them.

[Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172]

On 3/1/2018 at 10:05 AM, Sixgun Sheridan said:

True story from the time of the Old West: two saloon patrons who sitting at a card table in the back got into a heated argument, stood up and drew their pistols. They literally chased each other around the table firing at each other while the other panicked customers sprinted for the nearest exit. In the end both men were left with empty pistols, lots of holes in the walls and furniture, and not a single mark on each other. Upon realizing this they had a laugh and sat back down for some more drinks.

Perhaps this was the root cause for the misses.  Too many drinks before the shootout.

[Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172]

On 3/1/2018 at 12:51 PM, Noz said:

There are statistics about how many rounds were fired per casualty in WWII. It is mind boggling.

Yes there are, but you must recall how little training some got, in the rush to get new fodder to the front lines. 

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

I've thrown ten rounds in a hurry toward a 16" steel plate from 5 yards away and missed, and it wasn't moving or shooting back.

 

 

[Sixgun Sheridan]

26 minutes ago, Badger Mountain Charlie SASS #43172 said:

Yes there are, but you must recall how little training some got, in the rush to get new fodder to the front lines. 

 

Stateside soldiers were trained to pick their targets and aim carefully. Once in theater the vets told the replacements to forget what they were taught in training and to listen to them instead, and to pour fire on the enemy regardless of whether you could actually see them or not. Ammunition was cheap; lives weren't. The brass hats back home apparently never considered that and remained dead-set on avoiding unnecessary waste of ammo.