Three Foot Johnson Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 The manual says, "Procedural penalties cannot exceed one per stage". Shooting out of category is a Procedural, but it seems I remember reading a few years back that a shooter can, indeed, be awarded TWO Procedural penalties on a single stage for shooting out of category, earning a stage DQ. Hypothetical - Shooter in Frontier Cartridge steps to the line, buzzer goes off, shooter picks up rifle and shoots 10 smokeless rounds (Or 1, or 6 - doesn't matter). A Procedural is earned for shooting out of category with the smokeless rounds. Shooter then engages 10 pistol targets with 9 blackpowder rounds and 1 smokeless round. If I remember correctly, this earns him a second Procedural penalty on the stage, as the problem (smokeless rounds) wasn't corrected before shooting the next type of gun, resulting in a Stage DQ at that point. What if a Frontier Cartridge Duelist shooter stepped to the line and engaged the pistol targets in the wrong order with smokeless rounds from Blackhawks gunfighter style? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 Nope! But you can earn multiple stage DQ’s Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Foot Johnson Posted February 18, 2018 Author Share Posted February 18, 2018 Found it! Geez, it was even me who asked the question, lol. So, it appears, in the scenario presented above, a shooter can, indeed, earn 2 Procedural penalties on one stage. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted February 18, 2018 Share Posted February 18, 2018 How is one supposed to correct an ammunition problem once the stage has started? Rules clearly state you cannot leave the firing line. For example BP shooter jacks a round out of his rifle or has a FTF either way he/she pulls a reload from their belt and it turns out to be a smokeless round. Stage also calls for a single pistol reload so which also happens to be a smokeless round because he/she forgot to change the rounds out of their belt when they changes ammo. Is this 2 Ps and there fore a SDQ or a single P and a lot of ribbing? Only way I know of to get two Ps on a stage is when you are granted a reshoot. Earn a P the first time through and then earn a second one on the reshoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 For a reshoot, any misses & "P"s are negated...i.e., the shooter starts clean except for any MSV penalties incurred during the first run. Quote - On a reshoot, the competitor starts over clean, carrying only accrued safety penalties forward. SHB p.20 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Foot Johnson Posted February 19, 2018 Author Share Posted February 19, 2018 1 hour ago, Sedalia Dave said: How is one supposed to correct an ammunition problem once the stage has started? Rules clearly state you cannot leave the firing line. Tough to correct, but if the shooter knew there were more smokeless rounds in the next gun, I suppose they could take a 30 second penalty for Failure to Engage/Spirit of the Game, or 5 second penalties for each unfired round, whatever the call might be, and avoid a Stage DQ. For example BP shooter jacks a round out of his rifle or has a FTF either way he/she pulls a reload from their belt and it turns out to be a smokeless round. Stage also calls for a single pistol reload so which also happens to be a smokeless round because he/she forgot to change the rounds out of their belt when they changes ammo. Is this 2 Ps and there fore a SDQ or a single P and a lot of ribbing? As per the previous post, it looks like it would be 2 P's, hence a SDQ. Only way I know of to get two Ps on a stage is when you are granted a reshoot. Earn a P the first time through and then earn a second one on the reshoot. I don't know how many times I've seen a BP shooter inadvertently put a smokeless round downrange, a penalty is called, and everyone says, "Oh, c'mon, you're not going to give him a Procedural for one single smokeless round, are you?" "Well... how many does it have to be? Two? Five? All 24?" Kind of like saying, "Oh, c'mon, he only shot one single target out of order - you're not going to give him a Procedural for that, are you?" Or "Oh, c'mon, you're not going to rob him of a clean match over just one miss are you?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 I'd actually heard some of those... Best was at EoT in CA, "I came all the way from FL & have a chance to place in category; can't you change that SDQ to a MSV ?" (Shooter had swept the muzzles of an empty SG over the heads of the T/O and a spotter mid-stage!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 2 hours ago, J Bar Binks, #47015 said: For example BP shooter jacks a round out of his rifle or has a FTF either way he/she pulls a reload from their belt and it turns out to be a smokeless round. Stage also calls for a single pistol reload so which also happens to be a smokeless round because he/she forgot to change the rounds out of their belt when they changes ammo. Is this 2 Ps and there fore a SDQ or a single P and a lot of ribbing? As per the previous post, it looks like it would be 2 P's, hence a SDQ. I still don't understand why a shooter in a BP category would be awarded a SDQ for unintentionally having a smokeless round in more that one gun on a single stage. I can even see how it could unintentionally happen. I have a whole box of ammo for when I feel like having more fun that usual that has a few BP rounds mixed in with a bunch of smokeless rounds. Happened because I accidentally dumped about 100 BP rounds into a bin of smokeless rounds. Found out that I had done so when at a match and on the 4th or 5th stage my rifle goes bang 6 times them BOOM, then bang 3 more times. Sure got everyone’s attention. Now I color code by ammo typed by bullet color and that doesn't happen unless I do it intentionally. It has already been clearly stated that no other infraction will earn a shooter more than one P on a stage. A shooter could unintentionally shoot both the rifle and pistols sequences incorrectly and still earn only 1 P. If the BP shooter did it intentionally then it he/she has earned a Spirit of the Game penalty. Same SOG would be awarded for intentionally shooting the targets out of sequence. What requires that the BP shooter receive a more severe penalty? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 22 minutes ago, Sedalia Dave said: I still don't understand why a shooter in a BP category would be awarded a SDQ for unintentionally having a smokeless round in more that one gun on a single stage. We're not to judge on a shooter's intent. Even in the application of a SOG penalty, we need to rely on the shooter's comments, either before or after the performance. I certainly never intentionally miss a target... I'd have a LOT more clean stages and matches if everyone judged my performance on my intent! Edited to add: Shoot Frontiersman, you only have to worry about shotgun & rifle ammo. Reducing anxiety by a third, is surely good for your blood pressure! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 17 minutes ago, Griff said: Shoot Frontiersman, you only have to worry about shotgun & rifle ammo. Reducing anxiety by a third, is surely good for your blood pressure! I am working on it. I have a pair of 58s in 36 cal and a pair of 51s in 44. Working on a reloading box/stand right now. Would have had most of it done but got rained out this afternoon. I Also need to cast some ammo for the 44 as I don't have any. As soon as I can get to where I can actually signup for a big match and not get pulled into to work I'll be looking to shoot Frontiersman with you. Right now I cannot predict more that a few days out it I'll have to work or not. Later this year I may be able to schedule a month out. But right now it is impossible to register for a match far enough in advance to participate in anything other than a monthly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 In rethinking that post from 3 years ago, IIRC, I had in mind (at the time) a BP shooter who habitually somehow got a smokeless SHOTGUN round loaded for the first shot on "pop-up/can thrower" (aka "vomit) targets; giving a clear view of the aerial target. After being warned that if it was ever determined that it was being done on purpose, he would get the "P" + a 30-second SOG...it never happened again after that. In the case of smokeless rounds being inadvertently mixed with category-compliant ammo in a BP shooter's belt loops/pouch/pocket for multiple reloads in multiple firearms on a single stage, I would only assess a single "out of category" procedural penalty (1st offense) on that stage. If repeated on a subsequent stage, the progressive SDQ would apply; 3rd time would be a MDQ. Once the ROC is back on line after WR, I will get a majority opinion on this. Please note that the 2015 post was "IMO"...not representing any ruling by the ROC. I apologize for any misunderstandings in that regard. BTW - The first SOG penalty awarded at EoT was to a FC DUELIST shooter who incurred a "P" for shooting his first 5 revolver shots "out of order", followed by a 5-shot "dump" on the largest pistol target (should have repeated the first 5-round sweep) using BOTH hands. If "P"s were "stackable" he would have been given THREE 10-second penalties (two "out of order" engagements, plus one for first time "shooting out of category) When asked, the shooter admitted doing the "two-handed dump" to try to offset the time for the first "P". knowing he couldn't get more than one procedural on a stage...instead of an additional 20 seconds, he got 30 added to the initial "P", for a total of 40 seconds in penalties. He lost all appeals all the way up to one of the MDs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Curly Red Ryder Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 Was not also the possibility to be changed of category to another one allowing smokeless (ie Cowboy) for the match ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wyatt Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 Quote 10-SECOND PENALTIES 10-second penalties include “Procedural” (P) penalties and Minor Safety Violations (MSV). Procedural errors are simple, unintentional mistakes made as a result of “brain fade” or confusion, where the competitor engages the stage in a way other than how it was intended. Procedural penalties cannot exceed one per stage. Minor Safety Violations (MSV) are lesser safety infractions that do not directly endanger persons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Amarillo Rattler Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 15 hours ago, J Bar Binks, #47015 said: Found it! Geez, it was even me who asked the question, lol. So, it appears, in the scenario presented above, a shooter can, indeed, earn 2 Procedural penalties on one stage. The P would have been imposed for a single, or multiple, smokeless rounds fired on the stage by a BP category Pard. If the Pard repeated that error on another stage, the second P would cause the SDQ on the subsequent stage. Hypo: On Stage 1, Frontiersman shoots Squaw style with his 1860 Army’s, then fires his 97 with BP rounds, and his 73 with smokeless rounds. One P. On Stage 2, Frontiersman shoots one handed with his 1860 Army’s, then fires his SxS with BP rounds, but repeats the 73 error with smokeless rounds. Second repeated category error results in P/SDQ. If any of the Stage 1 category errors are repeated on Stage 3, then 3rd category P is also 2nd category SDQ and that results in MDQ. Just sayin’ Amarillo Rattler My apologies to PWB, did not see his earlier post with same result. Amarillo Rattler Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Dan Troop 70448 Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 8 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: In rethinking that post from 3 years ago, IIRC, I had in mind (at the time) a BP shooter who habitually somehow got a smokeless SHOTGUN round loaded for the first shot on "pop-up/can thrower" (aka "vomit) targets; giving a clear view of the aerial target. After being warned that if it was ever determined that it was being done on purpose, he would get the "P" + a 30-second SOG...it never happened again after that. In the case of smokeless rounds being inadvertently mixed with category-compliant ammo in a BP shooter's belt loops/pouch/pocket for multiple reloads in multiple firearms on a single stage, I would only assess a single "out of category" procedural penalty (1st offense) on that stage. If repeated on a subsequent stage, the progressive SDQ would apply; 3rd time would be a MDQ. Once the ROC is back on line after WR, I will get a majority opinion on this. Please note that the 2015 post was "IMO"...not representing any ruling by the ROC. I apologize for any misunderstandings in that regard. BTW - The first SOG penalty awarded at EoT was to a FC DUELIST shooter who incurred a "P" for shooting his first 5 revolver shots "out of order", followed by a 5-shot "dump" on the largest pistol target (should have repeated the first 5-round sweep) using BOTH hands. If "P"s were "stackable" he would have been given THREE 10-second penalties (two "out of order" engagements, plus one for first time "shooting out of category) When asked, the shooter admitted doing the "two-handed dump" to try to offset the time for the first "P". knowing he couldn't get more than one procedural on a stage...instead of an additional 20 seconds, he got 30 added to the initial "P", for a total of 40 seconds in penalties. He lost all appeals all the way up to one of the MDs. Why wasn't it a "Spirit of the Game" penalty? Shooter even admitted why he did it. MT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 37 minutes ago, Marshal Dan Troop 70448 said: Why wasn't it a "Spirit of the Game" penalty? Shooter even admitted why he did it. MT Please read that again...shooter WAS given an SOG penalty in the 2nd scenario. ...unless you are referring to the 1st example in which the shooter did NOT admit anything, claiming an "accidental" ammo mixup...he was given the "P" for "shooting out of category". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marshal Dan Troop 70448 Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 14 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: Please read that again...shooter WAS given an SOG penalty in the 2nd scenario. ...unless you are referring to the 1st example in which the shooter did NOT admit anything, claiming an "accidental" ammo mixup...he was given the "P" for "shooting out of category". Thanks. Sorry, missed it. My error, thanks for pointing it out. MT Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 6 hours ago, Curly Red Ryder said: Was not also the possibility to be changed of category to another one allowing smokeless (ie Cowboy) for the match ? That might be an option, depending on the initial category, rather than risk the progressive SDQ/MDQ penalties for a repeat of the ammo problem on any of the remaining stages. Shooter would still keep the "P" for the first violation while shooting in a BP cat, though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Foot Johnson Posted February 19, 2018 Author Share Posted February 19, 2018 Don't ya just love wintertime! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted February 19, 2018 Share Posted February 19, 2018 4 hours ago, J Bar Binks, #47015 said: Don't ya just love wintertime! No! I gotta drive from Spokane, WA to Charleston, SC, starting today... Ain't lookin' forward to any of it until I get south of IL! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Foot Johnson Posted February 19, 2018 Author Share Posted February 19, 2018 I don't think much of it myself, actually. The long range forecast isn't predicting temps to be above 27 until at least the 2nd week of March. Now that I'm retired, I think I need to put my house on auto-pilot around Thanksgiving, hook the trailer up, load up a small arsenal, head south and find a place to set up camp til around St. Patrick's Day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 1 hour ago, J Bar Binks, #47015 said: I don't think much of it myself, actually. The long range forecast isn't predicting temps to be above 27 until at least the 2nd week of March. Now that I'm retired, I think I need to put my house on auto-pilot around Thanksgiving, hook the trailer up, load up a small arsenal, head south and find a place to set up camp til around St. Patrick's Day. They're predicting 81 for Nashville tomorrow. Randy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MizPete Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 Y'all don't confuse me. The rule forever has been 1P per stage (though I have always thought it should be 1P per gun allowed). But then, the forever-ago rule was a dropped round was a dead round which, IMHO, s/be reinstated. Just yesterday I saw a guy drop four to recover 1 off the ground. And sooner or later, somebody's going to lost a pistol picking up a round. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major Crimes Posted February 20, 2018 Share Posted February 20, 2018 On 19/02/2018 at 9:19 AM, J Bar Binks, #47015 said: What if a Frontier Cartridge Duelist shooter stepped to the line and engaged the pistol targets in the wrong order with smokeless rounds from Blackhawks gunfighter style? or drew a pair of mini guns and his cartridges didnt produce enough smoke Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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