Chicken George* Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 I posted on here back in August about the experiences of Skrap P, my 8 year old boy, getting started in CAS and how he got lead poisoning pretty bad. (https://www.sassnet.com/ forums/index.php?/topic/ 265636-a-rough-start-for-an- amazing-kid/) Many asked for updates and I'm finally doing that. Skrap P still loves shooting as much as ever and I don't think he will ever tire of it. He is working hard to prepare for Winter Range. It has taken a lot longer than we thought to get his lead levels down. He is still a lot higher than we want him to be, but it is consistently coming down. It has been a long learning process to understand how to prevent more lead exposure. He still has the patches on his skin where he lost pigment, but he has started to get his color back everywhere. The patches on his elbows and hands are almost completely gone. Those patches were actually a huge blessing because lead poisoning symptoms don't show up until you have a lot and even then it is hard to diagnose. Even though he had the symptoms it was the patches that helped us figure it out. He had a lot of issues with fatigue, memory and concentration. For example, he struggled remembering the order of the stage even after I went over it with him several times. He would know the order and then forget and I'd have to go over it again. His mind is extremely sharp and quick now. When he shoots he usually understands the order before I do and is ready to go. He is usually the first out of bed in the mornings and hardly stops all day now. He doesn't show any of the lead poisoning symptoms anymore. Here is a before (above) and now (below)... So the big question always was, how did he get so much lead in his system? We have never shot in an indoor range. I always made sure we were all very good at washing our hands after doing anything related to shooting before we ever did anything else. I made sure of it. I would tell them to do what I did. I would scrub mine for a long time until I was sure I had everything off and then I would do it the same way again. When we got tested I had very high levels too. We had to be missing something. Fortunately, after a lot of research and because of some amazing medical professionals, we have been able to piece a lot of the answers together. Here are some of the things we've learned. - The primary explosive agent in primers is Lead Styphnate. Detonating the primer discharges a cloud of molecular lead compounds. This lead is so fine that that it floats through the air for a while, we breathe it in, and it lands on everything. There is definitely a lot in all the powder residue that is all over our casings, guns, and hands. The lead from the primers is more prevalent, more fine, and more dangerous to the shooter than the lead from the bullets. The lead bullets do shear off microscopic lead particles as they travel through the barrel that add more to that lead. Also, when the bullets hit the targets, fine lead particles are thrown everywhere. - Lead is absorbed through the skin. I have heard all over that lead is not absorbed through your skin, but this is not true! It may be true with other forms of lead, but the superfine lead particles we deal with definitely are absorbed. Our doctor was able to do some testing for us to see. They were able to figure out that both Skrap P and I were getting the majority of the lead through our skin. We also got a decent amount from our mouth or nose (most likely breathing it in). We were also surprised to find out that some lead actually goes through our clothes onto our skin. - Kids have skin that is a lot thinner and less keratinized, making it way more permeable. They have a higher skin to mass ratio. Because they are so much smaller, a little lead will cause a lot more damage. Also, their systems that clean out toxins are not fully developed. So the lead exposure we adults can handle is vastly different than that of young ones. - Removing lead from your system is very difficult and takes a long time. Detoxing products are very expensive. It is way easier to prevent exposure than to remove it. -We are all very different. What adversely affects one person may be fine for the majority of people. A lot of people that work with their hands a lot may have very dense skin and have almost no absorbtion of toxins. So this information that helps me and my boys stay safe may be of no worth to you. Knowing these things has allowed us to do a few things differently and we hope that it can help others with young shooters be safe. Before, we didn't avoid getting powder residue on our hands. Skrap P was often setting up targets and picking up the brass for everyone until his hands were black. He now has a pair of tight fitting knit gloves with a rubber coating to do that with. I like the Ansell Hyflex gloves for that and they come in lots of sizes so I have been able to get some that fit all of our family perfectly. You can do almost anything with them on so I also usually have them load and unload with them on. You can't wear those shooting so I was happy to find something for extra protection even without gloves. There are a few liquid products that you rub on your hands that dry to form an invisible and unnoticeable barrier for your skin. I like "Gloves in a Bottle". We all put it on before we do any shooting or reloading, etc., whether or not we use gloves. We took it to our doctor and he verified that it does help prevent lead absorption. I now do all the tumbling and separating of the brass. I do it outside with disposable gloves and a mask. Skrap P had helped with that in the past too. His hands would get pretty dirty and I'm sure he breathed some dust. I believe that was a big contributor to his lead poisoning. Again, we wear disposable gloves while doing any reloading or gun cleaning. We continue to wash well after things. We also have some dedicated shooting practice clothes and keep those and what we wear to matches separate. Our doctor told us that we didn't need any special D-lead soap or anything unusual for washing hands or clothes. So nothing has been too expensive or difficult, which has allowed us to all keep shooting. I thought we may want to wear a mask during shooting practices, but that would be a pain and we seem to be fine with everything else. Thanks for all the support and prayers!! There are so many that have taught and helped my boys (and me) with things at the matches. Also, many have given us things. We sure appreciate everything! We hope to see many of you at Winter Range or other matches in the future!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Original Lumpy Gritz Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 The highest lead 'contact is from the dust, when separating media from 'brass' when dry tumbling empty cases. The dry media is covered with this lead. Look into wet tumbling. OLG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Keystone, SASS # 47578 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 Wow, what an ordeal. Good to learn y'all are successfully detoxing from the lead poisoning. I switched to wet tumbling and have eliminated dust from the gun room area, cleaned brass and on the loading press. Cleaned brass looks new inside & out. All shooting residues go down the drain. Vaya con Dios, Keystone Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LostVaquero Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 21 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said: The highest lead 'contact is from the dust, when separating media from 'brass' when dry tumbling empty cases. The dry media is covered with this lead. Look into wet tumbling. OLG +1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Trailrider #896 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 IIRC most primers nowadays have had the lead styphnate removed. If true, this may make the primers less toxic, but may not make them as reliable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tucker McNeely Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 Thanks for your story. This should make us all rethink the perfect duty for our younger shooters is brass picker. This also make me glad I switched to wet tumbling. That water is nasty when done. Not so easy to become airborne that way during processing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 Thank you for posting this. I recently received the results of my blood lead level. Although I to have taken precautions over the years, I learned my levels are off the charts. I am going to be wearing a respirator at my indoor bullseye matches, and maybe nitrile gloves. Also going to start using a respirator when I do any reloading in addition to the nitrile gloves. Throwing towellettes into all of my rnage boxes and am going to be wiping my face and exposed areas after shooting. Would appreciate any other suggestions. Maybe it's time SASS considered allowing gloves as a safety factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 6 hours ago, Trailrider #896 said: IIRC most primers nowadays have had the lead styphnate removed. If true, this may make the primers less toxic, but may not make them as reliable. Only the primers sold for "Non-toxic" loads have moved from lead styphnate to other non-lead compounds. Styphnate normally comes with a pistachio green or even tan color. You can see the green pellet in Federal and Winchester primers of all of their sizes, strengths and qualities. Non-lead primers ARE NOT AVAILABLE in large quantities for reloading. And the limitations of the non-toxic priming compounds are the main reason that .45 auto comes with small pistol primers in the non-toxic range-practice ammo for police - the non-lead primers made in large pistol size have been very unreliable. For what our shooting supplies vendors carry, STILL consider all primers to be lead styphnate. A couple of suggestions - NEVER vibrate-clean or sort brass in any part of house, and if you do it outside, make sure a breeze or fan is pushing the dust away from you as you handle and sift. It is VERY rare that an indoor range has SUFFICIENT ventilation and cleaning that it meets new stringent standards all the time. But, that has more potential to affect the workers in the range all the time, than a shooter visiting a couple hours a week. But I just don't shoot at any indoor range. No eating, drinking, face touching until you have washed up thoroughly. Change clothes soon after shooting or reloading or casting. Good luck, GJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 1 hour ago, Trailrider #896 said: IIRC most primers nowadays have had the lead styphnate removed. If true, this may make the primers less toxic, but may not make them as reliable. While there are some lead free primers available. They are not commonly used by reloaders and are mostly found in lead free factory ammunition. Most CAS shoters are using primers that contain lead styphnate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 Hello George, Thank you for sharing your experience and the good news. Regards, Allie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lefty Dutchman, SASS #41480 Posted February 12, 2018 Share Posted February 12, 2018 I have my lead levels tested every year when I see my Doctor Their are two different test, one is a blood test and the more accurate is a 24 hour urine sample If you are a shooter you should do this every year no matter how old you are. Lefty Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sedalia Dave Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Something to keep in mind is that the lead dust from your vibratory cleaner is on all the objects around where you use it. This is one of the main reasons I now wet tumble all my brass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Three Foot Johnson Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Some people are also MUCH more susceptible to lead poisoning than others. I worked at a lead smelter for 23 years, and, as OSHA lead standards tightened over the years, I found myself spending a third of my time on in-plant medical removal toward the end. I did everything that could be done to reduce exposure, while others would regularly work in buildings you couldn't see across due to fume and smoke from the roasters and lead kettles and manage to keep their blood lead levels in the teens. I have a cousin who also worked there, and he had the same problem. Genetics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Rapid Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Chicken George. Thanks for sharing this detailed but most difficult story, and I'm really glad to hear that Skrap P is on the mend. I wrote a rather extensive article for the March 2017 edition of The Cowboy Chronicle on "Controlling Blood Lead Levels" for Cowboy Action Shooters™ that pointed to causes and solutions for reducing BLL (blood lead levels). I disagree with your doctor about D-Lead not working well to remove lead from hands. In tests we have done with lead-test kits, D-Lead does appear to remove more lead from the hands than any other soap using the same cleaning process and time. We keep a gallon jug of D-Lead at the sink at our range (PRVC) with the hope that folks wash their hands with it after shooting and before lunch. There are natural chelation (heavy-metal-removing) agents that you can take as food supplements that will greatly reduce BLL and these include Spirulina (especially the Hawaiian varieties), and cilantro (an herb that most folks enjoy in salsas and salads). My wife and I take a teaspoon of Spirulina every day in either orange juice or mixed in a protein drink. (My wife currently doesn't shoot, but is at the range all the time with me managing the office, scoring, etc., all of which exposes her to lead particulate.) I wear a bandana and always use it when timing because of the close proximity to several shooters at one time. (I try to wear it as often as I can when shooting, but it does get in the way of seeing my pistol grips, so I'm a 50% user when shooting.) My BLL was 18 about two years ago (I know some shooters with BLLs in the 24-28 range!). With aggressive hand washing, wearing a bandana when I can, and taking Spirulina daily, my BLL came down to 11 in my last test, about 3 months ago. According to who you are talking to, "safe" BLL is anything under 10mg/dl (micrograms per deciliter). I have turned on several of my fellow shooters to Spirulina and EVERY ONE who has used regularly it has discovered reduced BLL results! I hope more of our shooters become more focused on controlling and reducing BLLs. For those that didn't see that article or have that issue on hand, a free white-paper version can be downloaded from our club's "Documents/Papers" portion of our web site at: http://www.prvcatlazyarrow.com/prvcatylazyarrow.com/Documents_Papers.html Again, congratulations on your son's progress!!!! Best, Roger Rapid Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bramble Mountain Buzzard Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 1. Go with wet tumbling 2. Go with powder coated bullets Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sgt. Saywut Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 This is an eye-opener. Ginny Hinny and I don’t shoot that often, but we’ll certainly heed the advice given here. Thanks fof sharing this difficult story, CG. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Waimea Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Pickup brass with a picker only. The kids are frequently assigned the task of picking because they bend easier than old folks. Problem is they are more susceptible to lead poisoning. I assume you reload. Cover your brass collator with a towel. Hope your boy gets better. Waimea (bll 22 at last count) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Roger Rapid Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Heed Garrison Joe's warnings about not eating, drinking, or touching your face while shooting! (If you HAVE TO eat, do not touch the food - just the wrapper.) Also be aware of the enormous cloud of lead particulate you are breathing in while at the range. If you don't need to be on the firing line, stand back. About five or six months ago, on a hunch about the presence of lead particulate in the air, I put a patch from a lead test kit on the back edge of a loading table and by the time our posse was finished, it had turned a good pinkish-red.) ..>RR Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 16 hours ago, Roger Rapid said: Chicken George. Thanks for sharing this detailed but most difficult story, and I'm really glad to hear that Skrap P is on the mend. I wrote a rather extensive article for the March 2017 edition of The Cowboy Chronicle on "Controlling Blood Lead Levels" for Cowboy Action Shooters™ that pointed to causes and solutions for reducing BLL (blood lead levels). I disagree with your doctor about D-Lead not working well to remove lead from hands. In tests we have done with lead-test kits, D-Lead does appear to remove more lead from the hands than any other soap using the same cleaning process and time. We keep a gallon jug of D-Lead at the sink at our range (PRVC) with the hope that folks wash their hands with it after shooting and before lunch. There are natural chelation (heavy-metal-removing) agents that you can take as food supplements that will greatly reduce BLL and these include Spirulina (especially the Hawaiian varieties), and cilantro (an herb that most folks enjoy in salsas and salads). My wife and I take a teaspoon of Spirulina every day in either orange juice or mixed in a protein drink. (My wife currently doesn't shoot, but is at the range all the time with me managing the office, scoring, etc., all of which exposes her to lead particulate.) I wear a bandana and always use it when timing because of the close proximity to several shooters at one time. (I try to wear it as often as I can when shooting, but it does get in the way of seeing my pistol grips, so I'm a 50% user when shooting.) My BLL was 18 about two years ago (I know some shooters with BLLs in the 24-28 range!). With aggressive hand washing, wearing a bandana when I can, and taking Spirulina daily, my BLL came down to 11 in my last test, about 3 months ago. According to who you are talking to, "safe" BLL is anything under 10mg/dl (micrograms per deciliter). I have turned on several of my fellow shooters to Spirulina and EVERY ONE who has used regularly it has discovered reduced BLL results! I hope more of our shooters become more focused on controlling and reducing BLLs. For those that didn't see that article or have that issue on hand, a free white-paper version can be downloaded from our club's "Documents/Papers" portion of our web site at: http://www.prvcatlazyarrow.com/prvcatylazyarrow.com/Documents_Papers.html Again, congratulations on your son's progress!!!! Best, Roger Rapid Thank you for posting the link to your article. Printing it off and taking it to my Doctor on Thursday. Is Spirulina readily available through health food stores? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chicken George* Posted February 13, 2018 Author Share Posted February 13, 2018 We put both spirulina and cilantro in smoothies as often as we can along with taking our other medications. They are supposed to work really well together. The cilantro is supposed to pull the lead out of hard to reach places and make it available so the spirulina can remove it. We get our spirulina from Amazon but it is at most healthfood stores. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Father Kit Cool Gun Garth Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 On 2/12/2018 at 12:29 PM, Chicken George* said: I posted on here back in August about the experiences of Skrap P, my 8 year old boy, getting started in CAS and how he got lead poisoning pretty bad. (https://www.sassnet.com/ forums/index.php?/topic/ 265636-a-rough-start-for-an- amazing-kid/) .....subsequent text and pics removed only to . For those of you who could not get to the original THREAD that Chicken George posted above, you can click on it here. Chicken George: Thank you so much for sharing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Boy Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Quote No eating, drinking, face touching until you have washed up thoroughly. And when you wash - use cold water. Hot water opens the pores of the skin! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HossMunny Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Thank you for sharing this and prayers will go out to you and your family. God bless! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cypress Sun Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Thank you for your post. I'm glad that you described in detail what you and your family has been through...........and how to prevent it. Thanks once again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Rock, SASS #44055 Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 We keep the D-Lead wipes in the gun cart and use them, then was before eating Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red Cent Posted February 13, 2018 Share Posted February 13, 2018 Add on to John Boy's post. Rinse your hands before applying soap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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