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Shotshell Press for Black Powder?


July Smith

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What sort of press do you all recommend for loading plastic shells with black powder? 

 

I have a MEC progressive press for smokeless shells that I have been able to get by with.  I will size, deprime, and reprime the hulls.  Then I pull the hulls off the press to load the charge of black powder, nitro card, fiber wad, I then put the hulls back on the press for the shot, and the various crimping stages.  It's a bit of a pain to interrupt the progressive press in this fashion and was wondering if there was a better/easier way.

 

 

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For one thing, I and many others have went to using plastic wad cups. I've been using Claybuster CB1138 12 wads to get more space for powder.  

 

I don't know of a machine that will say it's ok to drop black powder through the measure.  Maybe a substitute?  I don't know. The problem would be the volumes of powder vs smokeless. 

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I admire your spirit of participation and I may not be suggesting anything you haven't already considered ... but ...

Back in the day ... when I briefly ... just had to try "frontier cartridge" ... I just wanted to be able to produce a competition suitable load the easiest way I could.

I have a MEC Sizemaster ... and was using 777 for my rifle and revolver loads ... sooooo ... I loaded my "frontier cartridge" shotshells just like I did my regular shotshells.

 

I used Rem/Win plastic cases with a WT12 wad and dropped 1 1/8oz of shot. Using an XX powder bushing (can't say the number here I guess ... PM if you want to know) the load chronoed at 850fps and was a hoot to shoot. Very pleasant ... knocked everything down ... plenty of room to bump up the charge if desired. 

Only point here ... Doing it this way requires no extra effort.

 

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I use a MEC sizemaster with a Lyman 55 BP measure set up next to the press. Right after priming I take the hull out and drop a suitable amount of  Goex FFg, then put back in the press and proceed as normal. Claybuster pink wads work well.

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28 minutes ago, Tyrel Cody said:

Right after priming I take the hull out and drop 50 grams of Goex FFg

 

And that friends, is exactly why the Wire does not want us to post specific loads. 50 grams of powder is a little bit over 1/10 pound. I know it was a typo, it was supposed to be 50 grains, but there you have it.

 

Personally, I load my 12 Gauge shotgun shells exactly the same way as the Original Poster does, with the nitro card and compression wad. I just like doing it that way.

 

I do it on my old MEC Jr.

 

And I dip the powder from a china mug into the hulls using a dipper from the Lee dipper set.

 

No, I ain't gonna say which dipper.

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Howdy July, I started with a Mec Jr., now use a Mec Grabber. One easy thing to thing to do is go to plastic wads, BPI has a good selection of short shell wads as well as the most popular WinAA Pink and WinAA Red. Clean up is easy, I use about a quart of hot water down each tube followed by a quick spray of Murphy's mix. Then push a wad of paper towel through...clean:D. If you plan to handle them at powder charge might as well use a Jr. cause you will manually move them to each station.

Check post #25 http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,58045.25.html of this thread for my favorites;). ......Good Luck:)

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Lee Load All for $50 

Green Gun Clubs from trap and skeet nights, cheddite 209, all the way to the right end of the Lee Dippers for powder, the largest bushing for 7 1/2 shot, the short red CB1138-12 wad.

 

Deprime, prime, when moving to middle dip the powder, back in press, insert wad, drop shot, precrimp, crimp. Black sharpie line across the bottom and box up 25. Can't be much simpler. If too stout (doubtful) use the pink wad and less powder. 

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6 minutes ago, Trooper Ozzy said:

Lee Load All for $50 

Green Gun Clubs from trap and skeet nights, cheddite 209, all the way to the right end of the Lee Dippers for powder, the largest bushing for 7 1/2 shot, the short red CB1138-12 wad.

 

Deprime, prime, when moving to middle dip the powder, back in press, insert wad, drop shot, precrimp, crimp. Black sharpie line across the bottom and box up 25. Can't be much simpler. If too stout (doubtful) use the pink wad and less powder. 

This is the same process that I use.   Look up how to make a square load for a BP shotshell.  It is pretty easy.

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I use an old MEC 600 JR, with Claybuster wads that replicate the Winchester Red wads, Claybuster CB1138 . I load 1 1/8 oz of shot, with an appropriate powder bushing. I close with 40 to 45 pounds of wad pressure. I ran the powder right through the system, never had any problems. I loaded real black and Goex, whatever was cheaper.

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My choice was a RCBS Mini-grand, dip the powder, use a red wad.   Keep powder volume less than the shot volume - maybe a 3:4 ratio is about right.  When I got REAL risk-accepting, I bored out a powder bushing to get enough Goex to drop right through the machine.  Never blew anything up, but I also usually kept the powder level in hopper at 1/4 full. 

 

The manufacturer's do not recommend this, because there can be some small sand grains in most black powder.    Comes from grinding real charcoal that came from trees grown in the ground (sand source) to make the powder.  If the sand caught between two steel parts to create a hot spark, at the least your loader would be history..   

 

Good luck, GJ

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2 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

My choice was a RCBS Mini-grand, dip the powder, use a red wad.   Keep powder volume less than the shot volume - maybe a 3:4 ratio is about right.  When I got REAL risk-accepting, I bored out a powder bushing to get enough Goex to drop right through the machine.  Never blew anything up, but I also usually kept the powder level in hopper at 1/4 full.

 

The manufacturer's do not recommend this, because there can be some small sand grains in most black powder.    Comes from grinding real charcoal that came from trees grown in the ground (sand source) to make the powder.  If the sand caught between two steel parts to create a hot spark, at the least your loader would be history.. 

 

Good luck, GJ

 

I also drilled out a powder bushing that I never used.

Started with 1/2 and did not drop  enough Goex.   Tried a 9/16 and it worked just right fpr a little less than a square load and 1 1/8 of shot.

 

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5 hours ago, Tyrel Cody said:

I use a MEC sizemaster with a Lyman 55 BP measure set up next to the press. Right after priming I take the hull out and drop a suitable amount of  Goex FFg, then put back in the press and proceed as normal. Claybuster pink wads work well.

 

I too use a Sizemaster, pull the hull out and drop the powder using a Hornady black powder throw, then put it back in and press in a hard card card and a waxed fiber wad.  It works quite nicely and the waxed wads prevent wad dust all over the place.  No plastic to clean out of the bore and if I am getting doughnut patters as some people claim fiber wads can do, then I don't care because they always knock the target down.  :)

 

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some people claim fiber wads can do

 

It's not just a claim.   I've had patterns on lots of cardboard sheets with BP and fiber wads having a donut hole at 15 yards.  

 

And lots of "over-square" loads with plastic wads having donut holes. 

 

And have seen lots of pictures right here on this forum with BP loads and donut holes.

 

Now, will every load with fiber wads show a donut hole?    Probably not.

 

What it does prove is - everyone should pattern their shotshells - ESPECIALLY IF STARTING TO LOAD BP and SUBS.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

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This is very good information, y'all.  I'm just now starting to reload BP shotshells since I'll be shooting Frontiersman.  Thanks for the input, and thanks to July for starting this thread.

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I load BP in a PW 800B and MEC Sizemaster with  ground wire to. 10’ copper clad ground rod.

Google the BP static electricity threads to see the safety factors.

 

The BP loads vary from 3/4 oz light to 1 1/8 heavy. Most are reclaimed lead, some are #7.5.

 

Just Sayin’

Amarillo Rattler

 

 

 

 

 

 Jesflorida 

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I have used a Lee Shotshell Reloader for about 18 years for both my wife's smokeless shotshells and my BP shotshells.. For my BP shotshells, I DO NOT use the powder side of the press. I take used the shotshell (usually Win AA) and place it in the resizer/primer remover, resize it, prime it, pull it off the machine, and manually add the BP charge from my Lee dipper to the deprimed/resized shotshell. I then place the shotshell onto the shot dispenser slot, place a lube fiber wad and a cut off shot cup from a Fig. 8 plasticwad and press them down into the shotshell, load the No. 7 shot into the cup/shotshell, and then move the shell into the crimp side of the Lee Loader, crimp it and box it. 

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Instead of pulling shells out of your progressive press. why not skip the bottles all together. A of small funnel in each drop tube. One container of shot and a container of powder. Or maybe better yet a large flask for the powder with right spout.

 

Proper sized lee dippers and you are good to go.

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3 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

It's not just a claim.   I've had patterns on lots of cardboard sheets with BP and fiber wads having a donut hole at 15 yards.  

 

And lots of "over-square" loads with plastic wads having donut holes. 

 

And have seen lots of pictures right here on this forum with BP loads and donut holes.

 

Now, will every load with fiber wads show a donut hole?    Probably not.

 

What it does prove is - everyone should pattern their shotshells - ESPECIALLY IF STARTING TO LOAD BP and SUBS.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

Howdy Again

 

I have never patterned my loads. Every time I point my shotgun at a knock down target the target goes down. I cannot recall ever having one not go down. My loads have fiber wads and the powder charge is slightly below a square load. If there is a donut hole in my patterns, it does not seem to affect their ability to knock down the knockdowns.

 

If I was not clobbering the knockdowns, perhaps I would pattern my loads.

 

Seeing as I am extremely lazy, and hate cleaning my shotgun, I see no need to pattern it.

 

 

 

 

 

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I started out with a Lee Load All for both Smokeless and BP.  I bought a MEC Jr. to replace it.  Now I load Metallic hulls by hand with nitro wad, and cushion wad and Black Powder.

 

The MEC Jr.  worked as well as the Lee.  I would charge the hulls with B/P by hand and add all the wads and shot using the machine.

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What sort of press do you all recommend for loading plastic shells with black powder?

July, I load BP reloads with a MEC Sizemaster with plastic wads.  The reloads are a standard square load  for 1  1/8 shot charges.  The square load powder charge for 1 1/8 of shot is 3 drams = 83gr of powder.

I modified the powder charge bar hole by cutting a spent 20ga plastic hull and put it in the powder charge bar hole.  That yields 83gr of powder for each reload. If you want a reduced square load of powder - put 2 plastic cut off wads in the powder hole

Accordingly, with plastic wads and the charge bar hole that drops 83gr of powder ... keep on cranking the reloads out as one would do reloading with smokeless powder

 

If you want to use the Multi-Scale Universal Charge Bar for the MEC, the mazimum amount of BP it will drop is 55grs ... https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1013189381/multi-scale-universal-charge-bar-with-powder-baffle-model-c-cs-mec-single-stage-shotshell-loaders-600-jr-sizemaster

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For real BP I use a RCBS turret press ,taking the hull out for the powder using a Hornady  BP powder thrower..slow yes but I like reloading.

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11 hours ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

It's not just a claim.   I've had patterns on lots of cardboard sheets with BP and fiber wads having a donut hole at 15 yards. 

 

7 hours ago, Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283 said:

Howdy Again

 

I have never patterned my loads. Every time I point my shotgun at a knock down target the target goes down. I cannot recall ever having one not go down. My loads have fiber wads and the powder charge is slightly below a square load. If there is a donut hole in my patterns, it does not seem to affect their ability to knock down the knockdowns.

 

If I was not clobbering the knockdowns, perhaps I would pattern my loads.

 

Seeing as I am extremely lazy, and hate cleaning my shotgun, I see no need to pattern it.

 

6 hours ago, John Boy said:

...The square load powder charge for 1 1/8 of shot is 3 drams = 83gr of powder...

 

 

All I can say is that my loads have never failed me.  If John Boy is correct,then I am shooting slightly less than square with 1-1/8 oz/70 grains.  Maybe that's preventing me from having a doughnut hole, and then again maybe there's a huge hole, but honestly I don't care.  I point, I pull the trigger, and the targets go down.  Lotsa sparks, flames and BOOM and then I walk away happy. 

 

When I get home because there's no plastic to scrub out and I don't need to soak in hot water that causes flash rust - only 3 or 4 passes with a brush and cold water, then two passes with a boresnake lubed with Ballistol and once again, I walk away happy.

 

I'm not arguing against patterning, but I see little point in it if you're already getting the results you want.

 

 

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I use the really old MEC 600JR to decap and size the hulls.   I prime on the press but instead of using the priming cup as equipped,  I place a stell plate over it and press the primer into flush with the head of the hull.  I have found that sometimes a primer can be set too deep in hulls that have been reloaded more than several times.  

 

Since I cut the fold off the hulls and use a roll crimp to seal the load,  I do the rest by hand.  I loaded 50 yesterday morning before breakfast in about a half an hour.   

 

We shoot about two matches a month on average for 8 months out of the year.   Sawmill Mary shoots factory loads - Fiocchi LITEd.   So I use about 16 boxes a year in matches.   I use smokeless in practice at home.  

 

So I don't see any big urgency in loading black powder shells. 

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JH - One grain off!

 

 

Conversion Table

Drams
avdp
Grains
avdp
Grams
1 27 1.77
2 55 3.54
3 82 5.31
3 1/8 85 5.53
3 1/4 89 5.76
3 1/2 96 6.20
3 3/4 103 6.64
4 109 7.08
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I use my MEC 9000 for all the operations.

I use plastic wads. I used to use fiber wads but it was just too fussy. 

I use a universal charge bar and I've adjusted my load to be less than square. I was blowing a hole in my pattern and it was causing problems.

 

 

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15 hours ago, John Henry Quick said:

When I get home because there's no plastic to scrub out and I don't need to soak in hot water that causes flash rust - only 3 or 4 passes with a brush and cold water, then two passes with a boresnake lubed with Ballistol and once again, I walk away happy.

 

Howdy, FWIW I don't soak or scrub anything, I pour hot water down the tubes and they're clean, all the plastic and fouling is gone...flushed out. Don't know anything about flash rust, never seen it:wacko: I spray with a little Murphy's mix, wipe and push a tight wad of paper towel through. Then spray and wipe with Ballistol......done.;)

     I've owned three different brands of shotgun and this simple method has worked well on all three. I've shot using fiber wads too, there is still BP fouling to clean.......the same method works there also.

    However, all three were modern firearms with modern steel.....FWIBT using plastic wads does not work well on older shotguns with older steel.

  

3 hours ago, Riverboat Red, SASS #71733 said:

I use my MEC 9000 for all the operations.

I use plastic wads.

I use a universal charge bar and I've adjusted my load to be less than square.

 

 

Yep, I use my Grabber with the correct size bushing and wad. On the Mec Bushing chart H110 and HS-7 are close to the same grains of Graf/Schuetzen and Goex ......Good Luck:)

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4 hours ago, Jefro, SASS#69420 said:

.FWIBT using plastic wads does not work well on older shotguns with older steel.

 

You have been told nonsense. :blink: They work fine in my 1889 Remington hammer double.    Most old shotguns have a very sharp transition (not even really a forcing cone) at front of chamber.  And they may have a short chamber.  As long as you load a shell that fits the chamber well, or you have the forcing cone opened to a more modern shape, they are good. 

 

If someone is confused, they may be trying to apply the warning about Damascus steel not handling modern higher pressure smokeless loads, whichof course have plastic wads in them, and thinking that it's the plastic wads that are bad for the barrels.   

 

Things "you have been told" in the gun games, are often just plain wrong.

 

Good luck, GJ

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I use my mec loader, I have a universal charge bar set up to drop my powder, but only bp sub like black mz or pyrodex for real bp I use a lee dipped. Plastic wad clay buster pink. When I dip I do it at the wad stage, clean up is spray  Windex let sit then push wad of paper towel, spray with balistol done.

Rafe

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I have been loading BP shells on a MEC Grabber for about 5 years, with BP in the normal powder container.  Before that I used a Lee Load All II, but had to use an external powder drop because Lee didn't have a bushing large enough to drop the charge of BP.  The MEC does a much better job than the Lee, fwiw.

 

When I got the MEC, I ordered a variety of powder bushings & measured the weight of Goex FFG that each one dropped, then plotted the results versus the bushing calculated volume & ID number.  The chart turned out to be surprisingly accurate.  If anyone is interested I will gladly share the chart that I developed - just PM me your e-mail address.  I can't figure out how to embed the chart in a PM.

 

Holler

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