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44-40 ammo .427 vs .428


Black Mike

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Would like to know if anyone has experienced this issue. 

 

I normally shoot APP and .428 bullets out of my smoke wagons. I have always shot multi day shoots, 12 stages or more without cleaning my pistols other than a wipe down of frame and cylinders at the end of each day with no problems. 

 

Just this his week I found some .427 bullets under my bench so I loaded them up with no issues. Dropped right in and out of my case gauge and cylinders.  

 

Shot out a local match on Saturday and by stage 5 had a bit of trouble squeezing my cartridges into pistol. Saved some of the most offending shells and found after scrubbing the cylinders the shells again just dropped right in. 

 

Could it it be I am getting more fouling with the .427's?  I do know that the .428 bullets actually produce tighter groups at 25 feet. 

 

 

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Yes, you probably were.  A loose bullet means the powder won't burn quite as well.  Thus, more fouling, some of which occurs right in the chamber, fouling the chamber walls (as you saw).

 

But a different lube on those old .427 than on your .428 could be causing more fouling too.   Yeah, I know, APP is SUPPOSED to create it's own lube.  Who knows, though, if all possible lubes work well with APP?

 

Another thought - could those .427s be quite a bit harder than the .428s?   A failure to obdurate (expand) in the throat and barrel would both lower the pressures and could add gas cutting of the sides of the bullet to the crud those rounds leave in the chamber.

 

"Just because a bullet fits the case doesn't mean it fits the gun"   :lol:

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

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Okay, how's this for a WAG?  I think a .427 round would still seal the chamber fine.  However, the .427 loaded rounds fit just a tiny bit loose at the front of the cylinder, as compared to a round with a larger bullet.  So fouling from fired shots can get in around that extra couple thousanths of space around the front of the other unfired rounds in the cylinder.

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1 hour ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Yes, you probably were.  A loose bullet means the powder won't burn quite as well.  Thus, more fouling, some of which occurs right in the chamber, fouling the chamber walls (as you saw).

 

But a different lube on those old .427 than on your .428 could be causing more fouling too.   Yeah, I know, APP is SUPPOSED to create it's own lube.  Who knows, though, if all possible lubes work well with APP?

 

Another thought - could those .427s be quite a bit harder than the .428s?   A failure to obdurate (expand) in the throat and barrel would both lower the pressures and could add gas cutting of the sides of the bullet to the crud those rounds leave in the chamber.

 

"Just because a bullet fits the case doesn't mean it fits the gun"   :lol:

 

Good luck, GJ

This ↑↑

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Howdy

 

A perennial question.

 

The answer is not so simple.

 

During the 19th Century, groove diameter for 44-40 was supposed to be .427. But it often varied all over the place.

 

Today, some manufacturers are using the same .429 barrels they use for 44 Special and 44 Mag, while others are using .427 barrels.

 

I have five rifles chambered for 44-40 and I have slugged them all.  Some are antique and some are modern manufacture. Believe it or not, some of the antiques are .427 and some are .429. To make things worse, my Uberti 1873 which was made sometime in the 1980s is .427 while my Uberti Henry made ten years ago is .429.

 

Go figure.

 

I have an old Colt New Service chambered for 44-40 but because the rifling has five grooves, it is not easy to get an accurate measurement on the slug. Same thing with my 44-40 Merwin Hulbert Pocket Army. Cant't get an accurate reading on the groove diameter.

 

When I first started in CAS, I had three rifles chambered for 44-40 and all had .427 barrel grooves. I discovered I could shoot .427 and .428 bullets in them fine, but because the brass is so thin with 44-40 a .429 bullet would swell the case mouth just enough to make chambering a little bit fussy. The solution to that is to use the brass with the thinnest case mouth, so it will not swell up enough to be tight in the chamber. Winchester brass has the thinnest brass at the case mouth, but they don't make it very often. Now I only use Starline brass for all my reloading, and Starline 44-40 is almost as thin at the case mouth as Winchester. I settled on .427 for all my 44-40 ammo at that time.

 

To make this overly long story a little bit shorter, when I got my Henry with its .429 rifling I changed over to .428 bullets. Yes, .428 is .001 under groove diameter, which is not supposed to be good for lead bullets, but I was not going to be loading up two different bullet diameters for different firearms.

 

.428 bullets have been working fine for me ever since, in all my rifles and my old revolvers with their unknown rifling diameters.

 

The bottom line is, you need to slug your barrels. The ideal lead bullet will be .001 over groove diameter. But with a revolver, you also need to take into account chamber throat diameter too. The ideal bullet will be .001 over groove diameter, but still slip easily through the chamber throats without needing to be forced, and not falling right through.

 

Good luck finding the perfect bullet. Remember, Perfect is the enemy of Good.

 

 

 

 

 

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Thanks for your input. I slugged my rifle and my Rugers back when and .428 it was. 

 

I just started shooting the smoke wagons on paper with .427 -and .428 and stayed with .428 as accuracy was better and no issues with fouling ever became evident. 

 

Will ll simply shoot out the rest of the .427's and then dig into my new supply of .428's from Bullets by Scarlett 

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Had a strange thing happen yesterday with my 44-40. I was trying a uberti Henry lever for the first time. Had fired about 20 rounds and all was well. Fired a round and then could not lever the next round. The previous round had case separation and left the top 1/2 of the casing in the chamber. Not sure why that happened. The load was with new  unfired Starline brass, 200 grain 428 cast bullet with a mild book load of Clays and a std primer. The report from the round seemed like all of the previous. I checked the fired cases and no apparent issues. Took a photo and sent it to Starline to see if they had an idea, no reply yet. I was using a Dillon press with a powder check die and a lee factory crimp die. Still working to get the case out of the chamber. Letting it soak in penetrating oil now and will most likely try a oversize brush to try to pull it.

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