WTC

[Major BS Walker Regulator]

1 hour ago, Major B. S. Walker said:

Rules are pretty clear, safe for movement with double broke open and empty hulls still in. No penalty if gun is cleared  before the next firearm is fired or if firearm is last, before it leaves the shooters hands. MSV for not cleared when the pistol was shot. 

 

1 hour ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

It is a MSV.

A shooting string is a sequence of shots uninterrupted by another TYPE of firearm.

 

A shooting string may be fired from one location or multiple locations.

And until that shooting string is broken by another TYPE of firearm; the rules for safe movement, empty cases and clearing apply.

 

The moment the NEXT type firearm is fired; it created a NEW firearm shooting string and MANDATES that the previous firearm be in a specific cleared state.

 

Failure to follow these procedures are a MSV.

Mr. Creeker explains it in more detail than I.

[Assassin]

MSV

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Has the R.O. 1 book been superseded by the new manual?

 

Even so, it says that you can restage a rifle with the hammer down on an empty chamber or a fired round.  But it does not say that for the shotgun.

 

One thing to consider is, was the hammer down on the shotgun?

 

Even so, I think the Pocket R.O. card is pretty clean.  But as I mentioned, we could probably have an edit in the main portion of the manual for consistency.

 

But I've been wrong a time or so, so...

[Griff]

2 hours ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

I don't think there is BOD, the rules state that if an empty is found in a long gun after the next gun is fired it is a MSV.

 

Thanks

Randy

We are only separated by our common language.  

 

What rules are being broken here?

Whether or not there's a fired hull in the shotgun.

 

The following are from the SHB ver. 22.3 (the current handbook).  

 

Quote

- The muzzles of all long guns must be maintained in a safe direction at all times
(generally “up” and slightly downrange).
- As long as the shooter has contact with the firearm, it is considered in their
control.

- Long guns will be emptied and discarded with their barrels pointed safely
downrange. This condition may be corrected on the clock, prior to the next round
being fired. If the long gun is not discarded empty prior to the next firearm being
fired, only the shooter may return to open and/or clear the firearm at the end of
the stage under the observation of the CRO/TO. Should an empty casing/hull be
ejected or found in the action or chamber, or a live round on the carrier of an open
action, a Minor Safety Violation (MSV) will be assessed. If the action is opened
and a live/unfired round is ejected, a Stage DQ (SDQ) will be assessed for a long
gun with a “live round under a cocked hammer having left the shooter’s hands”.

(There is no opportunity to correct this condition before firing the next firearm,
as the penalty takes effect upon leaving the shooter’s hands).
   o If the long gun is the last firearm used, it must be cleared prior to it leaving
the shooters hand(s) at the unloading area.
   o This does not apply to firearms shot out of sequence, made safe, and then
restaged.

Unless there's been a "clarification" issued that's NOT made it's way into the SHB or the ROI manual, the only written rule regarding empty & clear deals with discarded weapons after their use in the course of the stage.  Written language is often imprecise, as much as we try avoid such.  Note that the second point in the above states "...emptied and discarded...", it does not include alternative conditions, but... only covers both conditions, "emptied" AND "discarded"... does not describe a situation where the gun is NOT discarded.

 

The 3rd sentence of that same point states in part, "...long gun is not discarded empty..." only applies to what may happen if it's discarded, not if it's kept under the shooter's control.  Even if the shooter lays the shotgun (for example), on the table, but keeps their hand on it, according to the definitions second of the SHB, it is still under their control, not discarded.

 

The RO Pocket card is by necessity, brief, not fully fleshed out, and reflects clear indication that it refers to "discarded" long guns.

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

It is my understanding that the ROI booklet is obsolete. The goal of the new SHB was to get rid of the ROI and ROII and have it all in one booklet.

[Ace_of_Hearts]

There is a -----

Shooters Handbook - Replaces Old Shooters Handbook and RO-I Handbook - Basic Rule Book 

 

RO-I Course - Follows along with the RO-I Powerpoint and is the basis for the RO-I course

RO-II Course - Used as reference for RO-II certificate - Still has minor rule differences than the shooters handbook (More extensive)

 

[Lead Monger]

I don't see a conflict. The shotgun was safe for movement so no call there. The shotgun was not cleared before the next gun was fired. Looks like MSV to me.

[Captain Bill Burt]

2 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

It is a MSV.

A shooting string is a sequence of shots uninterrupted by another TYPE of firearm.

 

A shooting string may be fired from one location or multiple locations.

And until that shooting string is broken by another TYPE of firearm; the rules for safe movement, empty cases and clearing apply.

 

The moment the NEXT type firearm is fired; it created a NEW firearm shooting string and MANDATES that the previous firearm be in a specific cleared state.

 

Failure to follow these procedures are a MSV.

This!

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

PERSONAL OPINION (based on previous rulings in "real time" at SASS-sanctioned matches):

I agree wholeheartedly with Creeker's assessment, interpretation, and application of the rules.

 

ROC confirmation pending (following input and consensus on a couple of other unresolved issues).

 

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

3 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

PERSONAL OPINION (based on previous rulings in "real time" at SASS-sanctioned matches):

I agree wholeheartedly with Creeker's assessment, interpretation, and application of the rules.

 

ROC confirmation pending (following input and consensus on a couple of other unresolved issues).

 

If they are required to clear it, wouldn’t they also be required to discard it, since they are both mentioned in the same sentence? 

 

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

2 minutes ago, Smokestack said:

If they are required to clear it, wouldn’t they also be required to discard it, since they are both mentioned in the same sentence? 

 

That rule applies to the majority of the stage situations in which a long gun IS "discarded" at the end of a shooting string.

There has never (IIRC) been a specific rule written to cover a Duelist-style shooter holding a long gun "in hand" after its use (at the end of a shooting string);

but it has been SOP to allow that shooter to safely hold an EMPTY long gun instead of restaging it if the stage directions don't specify that it be restaged in a particular location/position.

Prior to the rule change from requiring that a long gun action be both OPEN & EMPTY, it was understood that those conditions were to be applied at the end of the long gun shooting string before FIRING the next type of firearm of the stage engagement.

The requirement that the action be CLEARED of all empty and loaded ammunition still applies...IMO.

 

 

[Ace_of_Hearts]

Not staging the long gun (as in holding it in hand) would be a distinct advantage to a duelest shooter in this situation.

It could be argued that this is unfair to shooters engaging the stage in another style. In which case the long gun would have to staged for future use.

It could be argued, on the other side, that shooting the stage "duelist style" is an option available to shooters in all categories.

 

You decide.

How much of a gamer are you

 

 

[El Hombre]

MSv. Shooter should have discarded the empties before shooting the pistol string. Would be no different to chucking empties on the run to engage next shotgun KD's

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

2 hours ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

Not staging the long gun (as in holding it in hand) would be a distinct advantage to a duelest shooter in this situation.

It could be argued that this is unfair to shooters engaging the stage in another style. In which case the long gun would have to staged for future use.

It could be argued, on the other side, that shooting the stage "duelist style" is an option available to shooters in all categories.

 

You decide.

How much of a gamer are you

 

 

I agree it could be an advantage to a Duelist shooter, same as multi taps on a pistol target are an advantage to a traditional shooter, but most of us Duelists (except Pecos Nick and a few others) are only shooting against other Duelist and not Overall.

 

Happy New Year.

Randy

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

4 hours ago, Griff said:

We are only separated by our common language.  

 

What rules are being broken here?

Whether or not there's a fired hull in the shotgun.

 

The following are from the SHB ver. 22.3 (the current handbook).  

 

Unless there's been a "clarification" issued that's NOT made it's way into the SHB or the ROI manual, the only written rule regarding empty & clear deals with discarded weapons after their use in the course of the stage.  Written language is often imprecise, as much as we try avoid such.  Note that the second point in the above states "...emptied and discarded...", it does not include alternative conditions, but... only covers both conditions, "emptied" AND "discarded"... does not describe a situation where the gun is NOT discarded.

 

The 3rd sentence of that same point states in part, "...long gun is not discarded empty..." only applies to what may happen if it's discarded, not if it's kept under the shooter's control.  Even if the shooter lays the shotgun (for example), on the table, but keeps their hand on it, according to the definitions second of the SHB, it is still under their control, not discarded.

 

The RO Pocket card is by necessity, brief, not fully fleshed out, and reflects clear indication that it refers to "discarded" long guns.

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree until the ROC makes a ruling, I see PaleWolf is working on it.

 

Happy New Year!

Randy

[Painted Mohawk SASS 77785]

7 hours ago, Jackaroo, # 29989 said:

Wrong Mohawk, read what can be done with a rifle first and ask yourself why the same cannot be done with a shotgun?

No Jack..I'II stick with my opinion & without stealing the OP's thread..what about the different calls of live round in the pistol at the unloading table as compared to the rifle [ if  rifle leaves the hands ]..them rules are what they are  !

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

8 hours ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

I agree it could be an advantage to a Duelist shooter, same as multi taps on a pistol target are an advantage to a traditional shooter, but most of us Duelists (except Pecos Nick and a few others) are only shooting against other Duelist and not Overall.

 

Happy New Year.

Randy

Exactly.

I too like to hold shotgun when stage allows such as to OP's.  As to it being an advantage, perhaps to those who practice it thoroughly  because shooting a revolver with one hand while holding another object such as shotgun in other does take some practice as to balance....of course size and distance of pistol targets has something to do with the ability of duelists also.  And, on the disadvantage side is also the fact that the shooter does have to pay close attention to hulls being out of bore as in the OP's stage which I deem MSV much to Creeker's analysis.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Duelists have been allowed to hold a safe long gun in one hand and shoot their pistols since the very beginning.

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

20 minutes ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

Duelists have been allowed to hold a safe long gun in one hand and shoot their pistols since the very beginning.

Yep...but I personally have found it takes some practice to do it in a well balance way and remain accurate.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

it  really works well if you can load the shotgun with either hand,,,,  really slick

 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

14 hours ago, El Hombre said:

Shooter should have discarded the empties before shooting the pistol string. Would be no different to chucking empties on the run to engage next shotgun KD's

 

 

Yes, it would be quite a bit different, because this discussion is about what is required when changing TYPE of gun to be shot next while still holding in one hand the last gun fired.  Not when moving and continuing on with same gun, all in a sequence of same gun being fired.    That is clearly quite legal if our safety rules are followed.  (Unless a "Plant, then poke" rule has been adopted by a local club.)

 

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

one of my favorite stages,,  RSPSPS....  rifle and sg from pos 1,, p and sg pos 2,  p and sg from pos 3.... in that order

 

shoot rifle,,,  and sg, loading with left hand,,, shoot,,,, then shuck on the move with left hand, and shoot rt p,,, holster and grab two shells with rt hand,, shoot sg,,, shuck with right hand on the move,  and grabbing lft p with lft hand and shooting it left handed,,,,, holster and grab two shells on the way up and shoot sg,,,,,   sooooooo cool!!

 

[Chuckwagon McTaggart]

5 minutes ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

one of my favorite stages,,  RSPSPS....  rifle and sg from pos 1,, p and sg pos 2,  p and sg from pos 3.... in that order

 

shoot rifle,,,  and sg, loading with left hand,,, shoot,,,, then shuck on the move with left hand, and shoot rt p,,, holster and grab two shells with rt hand,, shoot sg,,, shuck with right hand on the move,  and grabbing lft p with lft hand and shooting it left handed,,,,, holster and grab two shells on the way up and shoot sg,,,,,   sooooooo cool!!

 

That sounds like a whole lot of fun..  I would love to shoot a stage like that.

[Cowboy Junky]

I would have said MSV. Because the shotgun wasn't last and another gun was fired. I "thought" the purpose of the no call was if the shotgun (in this case) was fired last. If it were you still had control, didn't fire another gun it could cleared any time including at the unloading table. 

 

Not clearing the hulls, firing another gun and then clearing the hulls isn't the same thing. I can see why there is confusion though because of the control aspect but I'm thinkin' it'll be MSV when the smoke clears.........time will tell.......

[Jackaroo, # 29989]

13 hours ago, Painted Mohawk SASS 77785 said:

No Jack..I'II stick with my opinion & without stealing the OP's thread..what about the different calls of live round in the pistol at the unloading table as compared to the rifle [ if  rifle leaves the hands ]..them rules are what they are  !

Yea there are a few discrepancies with different guns. This one has brought something up and may be looked. If you saw the video it was actually a discussion that probably needn't have happened because he cleared the SG before he fired the shot anyway. I know the shooter we go down and shoot with them on the first weekend in TX . When you see the video he has complete control of the gun at all times barrels even down range. I think if I was RO I would have let him shoot even no yelling about the hill cause he wasn't going to put it down that can be clearly seen and anticipated by an RO. The query is about discarded guns yes you have to make it clear cause if you're a two handed shooter you have to put it down. What some Cowboys are saying now that the rule should not apply if you keep the gun in hand under your control and don't discard it you should be able to shoot with a hull in it. If you look at pages 37&38 of the New RO book or any other it states that a rifle can be discarded with a empty round in the chamber with hammer down if it is intended for further use?? So why cannot this apply to a shotgun? I know it's strange but that's what it says. If you only fire 4 pistol and leave a round in the gun and even holster it, it's only a miss? Provided the live round is not under the hammer. Some are calling for a more detailed rule description or allowing a one handed shooter to shoot another gun (pistol) if the hull hasn't come out and provided he has control in his hand. Of course if he puts it down he HAS  to clear it.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

or, just say you have to clear it before shooting another firearm, period, like we've done all along...

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

Just to drop in, thinking about the fired hull left in shotgun, full control of shotgun while pistol is fired with a fired hull left in shotgun. Lets say there wasn't any penalty, or ruled no penalty.

Now what if, shooter was moving from table 1 to far position 3 or next position and had time to, and loaded shotgun, yet kept the action open. (we already know you can move with a loaded shotgun if action is open), kept full control of shotgun, action open while firing pistol.

Just saying, this if changed or approved will or can be the next WTC post or seeking approval. Now its just an empty hull, next 2 unfired hulls already loaded and ready to just close the action after pistol is fired.  MT

[Griff]

14 hours ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree until the ROC makes a ruling, I see PaleWolf is working on it.

 

Happy New Year!

Randy

Randy,  Although I'd like to see the ROC rule this a "no-call", (currently language in the SHB does not cover the OPs scenario);  changing the language in the SHB would be a simple matter to cover both conditions.  In practice, I've found that leaving hulls in a shotgun under these situations is a disadvantage.  Simple maneuver to shuck hulls as you dismount the SG, then lower same to provide balance as you draw the pistol to engage the pistol targets... waiting until you've completed the pistol string to shuck hulls on the way to mounting the SG a second (or 3rd or more) time interrupts the flow of the motions necessary to remount AND reload the SG.  So much easier to just load as you're mounting the SG.  Although I'm a below middle of the pack shooter, (timewise), I like OPTIONS;  doin' things differently, adds spice to MY game, since any podium finishes are in my past!

[Jackaroo, # 29989]

1 hour ago, Marshal Dan Troop 70448 said:

Just to drop in, thinking about the fired hull left in shotgun, full control of shotgun while pistol is fired with a fired hull left in shotgun. Lets say there wasn't any penalty, or ruled no penalty.

Now what if, shooter was moving from table 1 to far position 3 or next position and had time to, and loaded shotgun, yet kept the action open. (we already know you can move with a loaded shotgun if action is open), kept full control of shotgun, action open while firing pistol.

Just saying, this if changed or approved will or can be the next WTC post or seeking approval. Now its just an empty hull, next 2 unfired hulls already loaded and ready to just close the action after pistol is fired.  MT

OOO, Marshal, I think you may have just opened it up to all the gamers now,...they'll be wanting that change I reckon.

 

[Yusta B.]

2 hours ago, Jackaroo, # 29989 said:

If you look at pages 37&38 of the New RO book or any other it states that a rifle can be discarded with a empty round in the chamber with hammer down if it is intended for further use?? So why cannot this apply to a shotgun?

No way to tell if the SG has hammer(s) down if it's closed........ for hammerless model , and it has 2 barrels

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

As a duelist who likes a stage like this, I still see it (OP) as MSV and, IMO,  see no need of rule change. PW has added his thoughts (like to Creeker's post) so I assume his thinking is certainly along lines of MSV. As much as I would like to see as "no call", I just do not. I feel the duelist making this method part of this particular stage knows his risk in muzzle position and hull in chamber. It is not a method without risk. The advantage, as in many a "tricky and gamey" move, goes to those that maintain good control of situation and who have probably put practice  time in the refinement.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

Verification from the Range Operations Committee (ROC):

 

Quote

The shooter would get a MSV for "failure to CLEAR all rounds remaining in the long gun" before FIRING the next TYPE firearm of the stage...even though the long gun is not actually "discarded" until the end of the last SG shooting string (or at the ULT).

 

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

exactly...

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

45 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Verification from the Range Operations Committee (ROC):

 

 

Thanks PaleWolf, glad to have the answer. 

 

Randy

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

A sensible decision, thanks for taking the time, and getting consensus to avoid future problems.  Simple, concise, and clear on the ruling.  MT