Sorting out the Cap & Ball Revolvers

[Father Kit Cool Gun Garth]

Been reading a lot of the past THREADS regarding Cap & Ball Revolvers and wanted to get a consolidated view of the Pros and Cons of each type.

I've read that there may be issues with knockdowns with the .36 cal and that the .44 cal is better.

Which ammo supplies are the least expensive?

Does it really make a difference whether it's an 1858 an 1860 or an 1861?

Which brand is better made out of the box, Uberti, Remington, or any other manufacturer?

Which one is easier to modify, and what would those modification be, and why would they be needed?

Lastly, should one let the cost get in the way of their decision? What I mean by this, is are there just as well made, high quality revolvers at a better price point than stepping up to a more expensive model.

Thanks for your input.

[Clueless Bob]

There are as many pros and cons on either one.  Most folks like the feel of the 51/60/61 Colts verses 58 Remington's.  Some feel the Remington's are a stronger design with the top strap verses Colts open tops.  Remington's have a "common" sight picture with a rear groove and front post.  Colts rear sight is part of the hammer with a post front.  Out of the box, they both can use some work.  There are numerous posts and on line threads for this.  Captain George Baylor(sp) and Larsen Pettifogger(sp) has written numerous articles for SASS Cowboy Chronicle.  This would be my first stop for improvements on reliability.  

 

As to calibers, that too, is a wash.  Shot placement will be more of a requirement for knockdowns with the 36's over 44's.

 

As to supplies, they both take the same caps, and powder.  The price of balls are also not that much of an issue either.  

 

I would say say go to your local matches and check out what folks are using, but for the most part, the number of Frontiersman shooting will not be that many.  I would say go to a bigger, State and above, and watch the Plainsman side match as well as Frontiersman main match to be able to see a larger selection of firearms.  

[Clueless Bob]

Oh yeah, as to which make of C&B revolvers.  They all can be made to shoot well and be very reliable.  

The "considered" best are Ruger Old Armies for being most robust and for reliability.  Of course, they run a premium since they are no longer being made.  I have heard/read a rumor that there may be some new ones out there, but...

The Pieatta's(sp) and Uberti's are about even out of the box.  I've shot Pieatta's mostly.  It took a little work, but I've finally got to where I would trust them completely.  

 

[J-BAR #18287]

Father KCGG:

 

You just passed out a PhD. thesis assignment.  I predict 5 or 6 pages, even if there are no big arguments.

 

New percussion revolvers are being made by Uberti and Pietta; Remington models are made by these two Italian manufacturers.  Ruger Old Army revolvers are common at SASS matches but Ruger no longer makes these, so they command a premium on the used gun market.  Colt second generation percussion guns were made under a licensing agreement between Colt and Uberti; I would give the details if I understood them, but I don't.  The argument continues whether or not they are "really Colts" or "really Ubertis."   The Colts had the most beautiful fit and finish on the outside, but had the same degree of machining marks on the inside as the Ubertis and Piettas.  Really old brands of percussion revolvers like Army San Marco don't show up very often.

 

I have no comment on the Remington models because I have never owned any.  The grip is not comfortable in my hand.  I don't see many plaques won with the Remingtons.

 

I have owned and shot Uberti and Pietta 1851s, 1860s and 1861s, Colt second generation 1851s and 1860s, and Ruger Old Armies.   I have sold all but the ROAs and the Uberti 1851s.   The Ruger Old Armies need less work to be competitive.  The Colt style open tops benefit from installation of cap rakes, aftermarket springs and nipples, tuning the fit of the arbor to the barrel assembly, and tuning the fit of the bolt to the cylinder notches to be truly competitive in Frontiersman Category.  Much of the work can be done by the shooter in his own shop, thanks to Larsen E. Pettifogger and Captain Baylor's efforts.

 

All of these guns are one helluva lot of fun to shoot!  

[Brett Black]

I know that shooting the Colt Design holds much much more grease  on the big fat Arbor .

Then does the Remington design.

So the Colt design will shoot much longer with out binding then the Remington .

This Is after some fine tuning of course .

Box stock the Remington has less issues then the Colt out of the box .

 

Brett Black 

[Father Kit Cool Gun Garth]

1 hour ago, Clueless Bob said:

Previous text removed only to .

There are numerous posts and on line threads for this.  Captain George Baylor(sp) and Larsen Pettifogger(sp) has written numerous articles for SASS Cowboy Chronicle.  This would be my first stop for improvements on reliability.  

 

 

Clueless,

     Heading over to the Cowboy Chronicle archives to research those articles.

[El diablo gringo]

Hi Kit, I compete with 51 and 61 navies. Never had a problem with knockdowns or Texas stars. That being said, some targets which may be a tad dead will not ring well with .36s hitting them.  I will let the posse know to look out for hits.   As for the question regarding cost, every firearm we use in this sport will function a whole lot better with the right work. It’s far easier to focus in shooting fast and accurately if you don’t have to worry about something going south on you. 

This is just my point of view. Ymmv

Gringo

[Blue Wolf , SASS# 29424L]

One difference in the 58, 60 and 61 is grip. The 58 grip to hammer is a stretch. The 60 has a large grip and 61 grip is smaller than 60. 

 

Pietta doesn't make the 61. Uberti does but is a 5 shot. Pietta does make a 6 shot called a 62 police in .36

 

I haven't had problems with shooting .36 on knockdowns. Not to say I won't. I like Pietta 51 or 62 in .36 because of grip.

 

All will need work to be competitive. 

[J-BAR #18287]

 

Both Uberti and Pietta make 6 shot 1861s.   The 1849 is a 5 shot revolver.

 

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Pietta-Model-Navy-Cal-Revolver-with-Starter-Kit/740133.uts

 

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/925234/uberti-1861-navy-black-powder-revolver-36-caliber-75-barrel-steel-frame-blue

 

 

 

 

 

 

[45 Dragoon]

Wow, a lot of "question"!! Lol!

 

As far as the open tops go, the arbor length fix is important for many reasons but for this thread, the ability to have the exact, same revolver you had before disassembly and after re-assembly is paramount! After that, the reasons for tuning are the same as for the cartridge guns.

  A light action is conducive to speed and ease of handling. This produces " other" problems with our Italian made revolvers as well as the modern supplies we have available. Caps for example are a problem in the open top design and the competition world has decided that the cap post (rake) is the answer and I agree. The cap post also allows for a much reduced main spring by arresting any hammer "blow back" from the main charge as it burns.  The Remington's narrow hammer slot is fairly effective at discouraging cap jams so it's not seen as a "huge" problem.  Of course," cycling the action with authority" will help the cap post and narrow hammer slot be even more effective. "Cycling the action with authority " .  .  .   calls for an action set up correctly and for that type of punishment. Proper timing, parts profiling, spring tension setting are a must for a long term shooter for top competition /longevity. 

  Coil spring conversions are the best upgrade for any S.A. revolver and that is true for the open top as well as the Remington. A coil setup is a lifetime setup and makes these revolvers as reliable as any modern, coil sprung revolver. 

 

  Until recently, the Remington was confined to a flat hand spring and possibly wire bolt and trigger combination spring. A coil spring setup is now available (hand, bolt and trigger) and along with the standard action stop and bolt block make the Remington a stronger, lighter (read faster!) revolver than the ROA. You could say it's the ROA's lighter, little brother!! (The ROA can be upgraded to a stronger/ more accurate action as well.)

 

Cap guns are the biggest challenge but it's amazing how close they can be made to their cartridge brothers!! 

 

Mike

[45 Dragoon]

As far as differences between the makes, Uberti (including all gens of Colts) still have short arbors. Pietta, on the other hand has corrected this for the "out of the box" shooter. I close them down to a .0025"- .003" barrel/cylinder clearance (same for all open tops of any make). 

  The action parts in the Pietta are still somewhat lacking though they seem to be making an effort to fix the '70s type parts that still reside in them. The Uberti's have probably the finest action parts ever offered in a Colt/Remington type cap and ball revolver!!  Thus, the price difference may be found inside moreso than outside.  

  This being said, both are capable of being brought to the highest state of tuning.

 

 

Mike

[Diamond Curly SASS#57086]

2 hours ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

 

Both Uberti and Pietta make 6 shot 1861s.   The 1849 is a 5 shot revolver.

 

http://www.cabelas.com/product/Pietta-Model-Navy-Cal-Revolver-with-Starter-Kit/740133.uts

 

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/925234/uberti-1861-navy-black-powder-revolver-36-caliber-75-barrel-steel-frame-blue

 

 

 

 

 

 

I believe that the 1862 Navy was a smaller framed revolver that was also a five shot cylinder and remember a reproduction of this model sold by Pietta. It is close to being a scaled down 1851 Navy. I shoot all of the open top models and with tuning completed very reliable. Hard to disagree that the ROA's are the most reliable of the C&B revolvers. I have owned a few Remington new Armies but the grip and trigger guard are not comfortable for me to shoot. I like the look and feel of all the Colt clones but do shoot my ROA's every once in awhile just to enjoy them. I have both 36's and 44's and with the correct load both are capable of knocking down any target if hit. 

[Boomstick Bruce]

Following so I can reply later...

[COAL CAR KID, SASS #15921]

I started shooting Frontiersman this year; I shoot Pietta 1851's in .36, they have served me very well without a whole lot of work.

I changed the nipples to Slix-Shot and took a file to the safety notch in the hammers as described in Bottom Dealing Mikes (Mike Beliveau)  U-Tube videos; made them hold up well. I also have enough cylinders to pre-charge for a match; so I can play at some of the small clubs I shoot at that I wouldn't have time to charge between stages.

I run APP in the pistols; I have had a little trouble with Texas stars, a conical bullet might help, I have some cast to try out in 2018.

I found that 777 in an 1851 when it's warm out will exceed 1000 FPS with a round ball.

 

I have had 2 failures to fire all year; self inflicted by not following my usual steps.

I have had 2 hand springs fail; I keep spare parts, Cabela's sells a kit with all the internal parts for about $35 & extra cylinders are about $50.

 

If you shoot cap & ball at a match; it's addictive; I bought 2 more pairs of Pietta 1851's this year

Every now and then when I feel the crazy urge; I shoot the 1851's in Frontier Cartridge Gunfighter, long on the Frontier and kinda short on cartridges

I can't think of a better way to spend a weekend than shooting cap & ball; an 1860 Henry and a hammered coach gun, smoking the place up

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

PLUS ONE to J-BAR!!

[The Coconino Pistolero, SASS # 72432]

And in case you did not know, you can swap Navy and Army grips on the Colt clones (but stay with the same maker).

 

I am enjoying the 1860 Sheriffs I have running now.  The .36s get lonely.

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

Well I'll be! I never knew my reloading stand was a display stand. Note that it will hold your pistol muzzle up for easy storage. 

 

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/784675/traditions-black-powder-revolver-display-stand

[Boomstick Bruce]

Pros and Cons of each type.

I've read that there may be issues with knockdowns with the .36 cal and that the .44 cal is better.

i agree 100%, remember a .44 round ball is only 141grains which is much less than the standard 45colt load at 200-250... even the 160s for 45 colt have more recoil than 44 round ball even with full 40gn triple 7 loads the RB had less felt recoil... besides anything worth putting a hole in is worth putting a big hole in!!!

Which ammo supplies are the least expensive?

i never worry about price when it comes to round balls, i use hornady exclusively, remember, chain firing is a major concern with cap and ball guns so use a quality ball, also its just personal preference, but i always use 457 round ball and a loading tool instead of the gun... the loading tools are only $40 so if you break it, you're you're only out $40 instead of a new gun. in my experience, the 457 cuts a bigger ring making a better seal and reducing the chance of a chainfire to 0 (ive never had one) and with the bigger ring cut off it has a longer flat spot on the ball where it was cut, giving better grip on the rifling... 

Does it really make a difference whether it's an 1858 an 1860 or an 1861?

i have had every cap gun made except for a lemat, my favorite by far is the remington. its stronger, better balanced and has better sites. rememebr the remington top strap design was copied by colt to make their 73SAA.. personally i feel the 58 and 75 are better guns with better balance, but thats just my experience, YMMV...

Which brand is better made out of the box, Uberti, Remington, or any other manufacturer?

remington doesnt make the 58's anymore, there are only 3 companies making 58's, pedersoli, uberti and pietta... from my experience the pedersolis are just way too expensive so they are not even an option, uberti are the best for several reasons

 

1. their internals are made to a much higher quality standard than the piettas. i shot 2 matches with a brand new pair of piettas and the actions felt very worn after the second match where my ubertis still feel brand new after several matches including the WV state shoot

2. ubertis have dovetailed front sites and loading lever catch so the front sites can be adjusted or changed (like i did). plus the barrel catch can be removed to make it easier to install a kirst conversion with the ejectors on the 5.5" guns. see, on a pietta the front sights and catch are soldered on and you cant remove the cylinder pin without unsoldering the catch so if you were to use a kirst conversion and you wanted and ejector rod, you would have to unsolder and resolder the catch, where with the uberti you just tap it out and back in.. that only applies to the 5.5" guns, the 8" catch is farther from the frame so the catch isnt a problem.

 

its much easier to cold solder the site in than to dovetail it which is why pietta does it... just more proof of the higher quality of the uberti

Which one is easier to modify, and what would those modification be, and why would they be needed?

back to what i said before, the uberti 58 has a dovetailed front site and can be replaced with something better, the 58 uses a post style front site which for some people is hard to see. the 51 and 60 colts have a very small piece of brass for a front site which is near impossible to see and a groove in the hammer for a rear, where with the remington like the SAA, the frame has a notch for a rear site. another nice thing about the remington is you can install a wolff mainspring for an SAA in it like i did with mine...

Lastly, should one let the cost get in the way of their decision? What I mean by this, is are there just as well made, high quality revolvers at a better price point than stepping up to a more expensive model.

yes, like the old saying, you get what you pay for... except for the pedersoli, those things are stupid expensive and there is no way they can be that much better... if my mind serves me right, they run more than a grand... get the uberti... you'll be glad you did... get a used pair from GB, most people buy them, shoot them 3 or 4 times until the novelty wears off and they sell them...

 

 

i am always scanning the interwebs for deals on antiques and cap guns, if you want a set let me know i'll see what i can come up with

[Joe West]

I started with a .36 Navy Pietta [only one pistol needed then] On knockdowns I used conicals with good effect but the downside really came when we went to steel instead of paper targets. When the smoke is hanging the .36 hit is faster so it's sound is closer to the sound of the firing = spotters will give you more misses . It's something you have to live with even with .44s  but worse with .36s. You can blame the spotters all you want but in sass if 2 of 3 say you missed, it's a miss. As for choice of gun, To paraphrase Bill Jordan, the three most important aspects of shooting a handgun are the grip, grip, and the grip. Whatever fits your hand the best is what you'll shoot the best and fastest.

[Bittertrigger]

With all the talk about the 36 80gr ball not ringing the targets and trouble with knock downs 

why not use the 130gr conical 

does anyone use them 

I know you would have to cast the bullet yourself 

but would it not be a better choice for the 36 or is it less accurate of the two 

Just wondering 

[COAL CAR KID, SASS #15921]

44 minutes ago, Bittertrigger said:

With all the talk about the 36 80gr ball not ringing the targets and trouble with knock downs 

why not use the 130gr conical 

does anyone use them 

I know you would have to cast the bullet yourself 

but would it not be a better choice for the 36 or is it less accurate of the two 

Just wondering 

Getting them started straight is very difficult; the current production 1851's I have from Pietta are not cut out far enough to load on the gun. 

I have a cheap cylinder loader that works well for round ball; it doesn't provide enough leverage or start them straight enough.

I ordered a heavy duty one from Powder Inc. that should work just fine; I have some conical bullets that I really want to try.

When started reasonably straight at SASS distances, accuracy shouldn't be a problem.

[Diamond Curly SASS#57086]

1 hour ago, Bittertrigger said:

With all the talk about the 36 80gr ball not ringing the targets and trouble with knock downs 

why not use the 130gr conical 

does anyone use them 

I know you would have to cast the bullet yourself 

but would it not be a better choice for the 36 or is it less accurate of the two 

Just wondering 

I have used the conical in CAS and had a flyer once in awhile but plenty accurate for the distances that we shoot. I just shoot the round balls at our matches and yes some hits are called misses but not as many as I have read mentioned on the wire. I do shoot only 44's at our annual matches only to make it easier on the spotters. 

[Sgt. Hochbauer, SASS #64409]

I began shooting frontiersmen when I started...had a pair of 51 Navy's from Cabela's in .44 cal. When finances allowed I moved to cartridge guns. The Navy's did have their challenges at the time I switched the nipples over to Treso nipples made a big difference in reliability. That said things have come full circle and now back to shooting cap guns. The Navy's are now retired and also quite loose they are the brass frames. Now am shooting  a sort of pair of ROA's  one is a 5.5" barrel and the other is 7.5". I changed them over to Slix Shot nipples and put in lighter springs.  I have been casting round balls and conicals but now have to pardon the pun and bite the bullet and get either a 6 cavity conical mold or round ball mold from Dick Dastardly. Lastly I do enjoy shooting the ROA's but those 51 Navy's just point so nice like an extension of my hand.

 

Hochbauer

[Brett Black]

I just picked up two 51's on sale from Cabela's.

So I'm starting to get a nice little open top collection going .

 

I think the Remington grip is to small and could not shoot them with out smacking my fingers .

Don't have that issue with the Colt design .

Brett Black 

[Bullett Sass 19707]

If someone already said this then pardon the repeat.   I think its long Hunter that sell already tuned BP pistols.  Might save you some time and work.   If you want the challenge of making them run yourself that's another issue.  Bullett 19707

[Cliff Hanger #3720LR]

Just clicked on this thread.

I guess I should have done it sooner.

----------

And the story goes...Way back in 2005, there was this cowboy who wanted to know more about Cap & Ball revolvers. He did some reading and some listening and then he went looking for help. He talked to long time Cap & Ball shooters who participate in cas. During all these questions, these shooters asked if he would like to try several Cap & Ball revolvers. Some stock and most competition ready. Well, this was a offer the cowboy could not pass up. He was asked to try all these guns out and then write an article on what he observed and learned.

 

That cowboy was Fredrick Jackson Turner and the article he produced can be found in the Brimstone Gazette, Feb 2005.

 

[Lefty Dude, SASS # 51223]

Read the excellent article by the Captain Baylor in the latest issue of the Chronical. Part 1 is now, followed by part 2 next issue.

[Waxahachie Kid #17017 L]

I did not see the Starr single action cap & ball revolver mentioned in this thread.  I have one, and it is fun to shoot, but the short hammer is not easy to reach for fast shooting.  It has no "arbor" or cylinder pin, it has a top strap, It looks unwieldy, and I will admit it is different, and not everyone's cup of tea.  But, it is different, and does attract attention.  Does Pietta still make them?  I am not sure, I have not looked that up.  I am sure someone on the wire will.   I think they are still listed for sale on the Dixie Gun Works website. 

My oldest cap & ball is an old Replica Arms 1860 Army, that I bought from Dixie Gun Works back in 1968.  I think it was Uberti that made the old Replica brand....not sure.  It is 50 years old, and still going strong.  All I have had to replace is the cylinder stop spring, once.  I imagine I have shot that revolver thousands of times in the 50 years I have had it.  I started out shooting black powder on an 1851 .36 caliber Colt clone, back in 1965.  I guess the '51 is probably my all time favorite c & b revolver design.  Gotta love those octagonal barrels. 

My two bits.

W.K.

   

[Bittertrigger]

Ok a few of questions 

at the loading table, is allowed to put the hammer on the safety notch or does it have to be on the empty nipple, splitting hairs I know but I am curious about it 

Won a 44 Navy a few months back and got one for Christmas, with all the talk about brass frames stretching, that’s a big big chunk of brass, what part is stretching, what are the signs to look for that the frame has stretched 

With SASS loads of 15-20grs of Powder, what would the advantage life expectancy be 

thanks guys

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

1 hour ago, Bittertrigger said:

at the loading table, is allowed to put the hammer on the safety notch or does it have to be on the empty nipple, splitting hairs I know but I am curious about it 

Your .44 is a 6-shot revolver so the hammer must be on an uncapped chamber. With 5-shot revolvers such as 1862 police, the hammer is on the safety pin.  From the shooters handbook, page 13.  http://www.sassnet.com/Downloads/Shooters Handbook Vers 22_3.pdf

 

- Six-gun revolvers are always loaded with only five rounds and the hammer lowered and resting on the empty chamber. - Five-shooter revolvers may load five rounds, but the hammer must rest on a dummy chamber or safety slot/pin in the cylinder to avoid the hammer resting on a live round/cap...

[J-BAR #18287]

1 hour ago, Bittertrigger said:

 

With SASS loads of 15-20grs of Powder, what would the advantage life expectancy be 

 

 

Opinions will vary, but that is a fairly mild load.  If you shot a match every weekend, using pure lead balls of the correct diameter rather than heavy conicals, I expect you would still get several years service before frame stretch became an issue.

 

The hand spring and the trigger/bolt spring will break long before that!  

[Bittertrigger]

40 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

Your .44 is a 6-shot revolver so the hammer must be on an uncapped chamber. With 5-shot revolvers such as 1862 police, the hammer is on the safety pin.  From the shooters handbook, page 13.  http://www.sassnet.com/Downloads/Shooters Handbook Vers 22_3.pdf

 

- Six-gun revolvers are always loaded with only five rounds and the hammer lowered and resting on the empty chamber. - Five-shooter revolvers may load five rounds, but the hammer must rest on a dummy chamber or safety slot/pin in the cylinder to avoid the hammer resting on a live round/cap...

Thank you 

Really should read the hand book more often 

[Bittertrigger]

8 minutes ago, J-BAR #18287 said:

 

Opinions will vary, but that is a fairly mild load.  If you shot a match every weekend, using pure lead balls of the correct diameter rather than heavy conicals, I expect you would still get several years service before frame stretch became an issue.

 

The hand spring and the trigger/bolt spring will break long before that!  

I was going off the Minimum for BP Cartridge of 15grs and I got back up springs LOL 

[Charlie Whiskers]

On ‎12‎/‎28‎/‎2017 at 4:54 PM, Clueless Bob said:

Oh yeah, as to which make of C&B revolvers.  They all can be made to shoot well and be very reliable.  

The "considered" best are Ruger Old Armies for being most robust and for reliability.  Of course, they run a premium since they are no longer being made.  I have heard/read a rumor that there may be some new ones out there, but...

The Pieatta's(sp) and Uberti's are about even out of the box.  I've shot Pieatta's mostly.  It took a little work, but I've finally got to where I would trust them completely.  

 

 

I contacted Ruger about the ROA's....this is the reply I got from them.

 

Thank you for contacting Ruger Customer Service. We discontinued  the Old Army revolver in 2009 and we did bring the Old Army back for a limited run in 2017 which was made for a Distributor called Lipsey’s The firearm sells for 1299.99 and was sold to that Distributor. The Old Army was release on a limited time basis.

[Lefty Dude, SASS # 51223]

I shot Pietta brass frames in 44 for several years, before changing to Steel framed 51/36's. Never had a problem, just kept the load low and used APP. A charge of 20 gr or less.

We are ringing steel 15 yards, not trying to kill Indians & Rustlers.