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TO assistance


Cheatin Charlie

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After the post about screwknives and TO's offering them to clear a jam the question came to mind is that OK to do?  I know it would be the right thing to do but at a state or higher match would that be frowned upon?  Seems like it would be like handing the shooter a couple shotgun shells if the shooter forgot his.  What if the next shooter had

a different TO and had a jam and that TO had no screwknife to loan?

The question is how much can a TO assist a shooter when he has a problem and not cross the line?  I don't remember that being addressed at the RO1 training.  Of cource my

memory is not what it used to be.

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that is a good one CC,,, the answer should, imho, be no,,,  

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IMNSHO, the answer should be "yes".  The TO is there to assist the shooter thru the stage safely.  As the TO, I've asked other posse members if anyone has a screwdriver if needed.  If the jam is severe, I've advised the shooter to ground the gun, declare it broke and continue on.  On a few occasions I've had to help the shooter maintain muzzle control while clearing a jam...  There is no competitive advantage to clearing a jam, it's going to take time, the clock is running... far from the competitive advantage that handing a shooter a bullet or shotshell constitutes.

 

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Shooter locks up rifle after 2 rounds so as the TO you hand him your screw knife you always carry. He clears jam in 10 seconds saving him the extra 30 seconds he would of gotten with 8 rounds left in gun (40 seconds) if he had to declares it. You now pass off timer to next TO and several shooters later, the same thing happens. Shooter locks up rifle after 2 rounds and that TO does not carry a screw knife.  The answer would be no.

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Same could be said of a T/O who is more familiar with a certain model of firearm who is able to verbally "safely assist" the shooter in resolving a "stoppage" (new term in the SHB).

For example: knowing to check the base pin when a cylinder temporarily locks up mid-stage.

Another (used to be quite common): Recognizing & telling the shooter to disengage the safety on an unmodified rifle or shotgun (or revolver with a 2-step base pin).

OR

Directing the shooter to re-cock the hammer on a rifle instead of levering a round out.

... etc.

Every shooter doesn't get the benefit from an experienced T/O's knowledge on every stage.

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BTW - This is NOT the same thing as providing SG ammo or R/P reloads to a shooter mid-stage...

THAT is specifically addressed in the rules as FORBIDDEN with attendant penalties for acceptance and use.

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2 hours ago, Cheatin Charlie said:

After the post about screwknives and TO's offering them to clear a jam the question came to mind is that OK to do?  I know it would be the right thing to do but at a state or higher match would that be frowned upon?  Seems like it would be like handing the shooter a couple shotgun shells if the shooter forgot his.  What if the next shooter had

a different TO and had a jam and that TO had no screwknife to loan?

The question is how much can a TO assist a shooter when he has a problem and not cross the line?  I don't remember that being addressed at the RO1 training.  Of cource my

memory is not what it used to be.

I guess I'd ask it the other way around - at what point does winning take precedence over helping each other to have a good time?  If we're going to start worrying over who helped who and who didn't get help, then we've crossed over into IDPA and IPSC territory, and stopped being about the cowboy way.  Whenever we get the chance to help each other (within the written rules) we should - It's a bloody game, not life and death!

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6 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Same could be said of a T/O who is more familiar with a certain model of firearm who is able to verbally "safely assist" the shooter in resolving a "stoppage" (new term in the SHB).

For example: knowing to check the base pin when a cylinder temporarily locks up mid-stage.

Another (used to be quite common): Recognizing & telling the shooter to disengage the safety on an unmodified rifle or shotgun (or revolver with a 2-step base pin).

OR

Directing the shooter to re-cock the hammer on a rifle instead of levering a round out.

... etc.

Every shooter doesn't get the benefit from an experienced T/O's knowledge on every stage.

I know verbally we as TO's can assist the shooter thru the stage, have done it for years.  But are you saying it is within the rules to hand tools to the shooter to complete

the stage and physically help him clear weapon problem?  I have no problem giving him tools and helping him if it is within the rules.  Yea or Nay?  I have never seen

this discussed before.

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This mostly applies to the middle of the pack shooters, and we should help them when we can do so safely.  The fast shooters will either know how to clear the jam and do it, or know they can't and ground the firearm and go on.  I will say to a new TO if you're not sure what to do, don't say anything and if the problem goes on, let them know they can declare a malfunction and ground the firearm and move on.

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I wonder if this could progress to where my skill level is not equal to the ROs so I hand him the rifle to shoot for me (on other forms the color purple is reserved for sarcasm or 'tongue-in-cheek' which this post is) 

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Rules say TO is to safely assist the shooter through the course of fire. Helping to clear a jam is not the same as giving ammo. TO should check shooter as they come to the line for ammo. if they don't have it, tell them to get it! Some TOs are better than others.

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5 hours ago, Cheatin Charlie said:

I know verbally we as TO's can assist the shooter thru the stage, have done it for years.  But are you saying it is within the rules to hand tools to the shooter to complete

the stage and physically help him clear weapon problem?  I have no problem giving him tools and helping him if it is within the rules.  Yea or Nay?  I have never seen

this discussed before.

Im a 97 shooter.  I cannot tell you how many times I have physically assisted with the very common bolt/ carrier interference issue where the bolt must be manually pushed forward.  I have racked 97s for the shooter when a little more brute force was required to get a round to cycle or eject.  I have also broken open stubborn sxs shotguns, pushed in cylinder pins, pushed/ turned safeties, and dozens of other examples of physically interacting with the shooter or their equipment.  If I am the TO; I consider myself partnered with the shooter to safely assist them thru the stage.  Meaning I will do everything possible within the rules to ensure they achieve their best result. 

There will always be skill/ ability/ dedication level differences between TO's. 

If the trend or desire is to minimize the impact/ input of differently skilled TO's -

then we are either going to have to disallow all non safety TO interactions with the shooter or improve the quality of our TO's.

 

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So, riding this stage to the nest Station, > > > > > After handing the shooter the Illgotten, Illegally proffered forgotten shotgun shells, shouldn't the TO receive the same penalty as the accepting shooter??  Perhaps??  Gesundheite  :) 

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15 hours ago, Cheatin Charlie said:

After the post about screwknives and TO's offering them to clear a jam the question came to mind is that OK to do?  I know it would be the right thing to do but at a state or higher match would that be frowned upon?  Seems like it would be like handing the shooter a couple shotgun shells if the shooter forgot his.  What if the next shooter had

a different TO and had a jam and that TO had no screwknife to loan?

The question is how much can a TO assist a shooter when he has a problem and not cross the line?  I don't remember that being addressed at the RO1 training.  Of cource my

memory is not what it used to be.

I believe I was the one who posted that incident. It was a local match that it happened at and I would have lost much less time if I had just taken the misses as there was only one shell left in the rifle. I don't think it would be OK at a State or above match.

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I was running the timer at a big match when an experienced shooter had an issue.  Without any thought I instinctively  pulled out my screw knife and placed in on the table so the shooter could use it if he needed.  The shooter quickly determined that the stoppage could not be repaired and did not use the tool.  Later in the day I discussed this event with a RO instructor and we decided it could have ruffled some feathers if the loaned tool had be used by the shooter. 

 

If a top competitor has any issue that requires a tool to fix, then the match is already lost whether someone loans them a tool or not.

 

I would love to hear  a ruling on this, but personally it will be hard not to offer help when a shooter needs it.

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6 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Im a 97 shooter.  I cannot tell you how many times I have physically assisted with the very common bolt/ carrier interference issue where the bolt must be manually pushed forward.  I have racked 97s for the shooter when a little more brute force was required to get a round to cycle or eject.  I have also broken open stubborn sxs shotguns, pushed in cylinder pins, pushed/ turned safeties, and dozens of other examples of physically interacting with the shooter or their equipment.  If I am the TO; I consider myself partnered with the shooter to safely assist them thru the stage.  Meaning I will do everything possible within the rules to ensure they achieve their best result. 

There will always be skill/ ability/ dedication level differences between TO's. 

If the trend or desire is to minimize the impact/ input of differently skilled TO's -

then we are either going to have to disallow all non safety TO interactions with the shooter or improve the quality of our TO's.

 

 

This has got to stop!!!!  I am agreeing with you way too much.

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What is the difference between a to that assists a shooter by calling out the correct target vs one that doesn’t say a word the whole run until you done a then tells you the penalty for shooting it wrong. In the book it did say safely assist the shooter threw the course of fire. But not doing it isn’t a call but I doubt you see them Time much after it’s known they will not assist the shooter.

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