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Where has all of the "fun stuff" gone?


Mustang Gregg

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15 minutes ago, Charley Leadville said:

I'm a bit amused by the arguement that it's a "shooting competition".  I guess that's why we dress up like cowpokes...

Not really any arguement about it.

Regardless of how we may dress; the guns we use or how many yeehaas, yawls and howdys you hear in a given day.

  

We use a timer and we keep score.

It's a shooting competition.

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Life is too short to have anything but a Positive attitude:

May you find enough inner strength to determine your own worth by 
yourself, and not be dependent on another's judgment of your accomplishments.
 

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Catering to the top shooters of our game is not the reason fun things have waned at matches and is an unfair assessment of a match director's intent without intrinsic justification.  In fact, I would go so far as to say big, fast, and close has more to do with running a big match efficiently and catering to more marginal competitors.

 

Shooter demographics, safety concerns, and large match logistics play a much larger role in organizing an event.  I've yet to see a top shooter complain about any on or off clock activity.  They assess the challenge and address it as an integral aspect of the stage.

 

Are the big and close matches for the benefit of top shooters or are they designed to make the match more fun for a broader spectrum of competitors?  I believe the latter to be true.

 

The good ole days were indeed a lot of fun so some club's are having legacy or throw back matches once a year or so as a tribute to our early beginnings.  Attendance at these throwback matches is usually very good so they will continue.

 

As in all things in life, a compromise of mixing the old with the new makes for an equatable balance so most folks will enjoy their experience to the fullest extent. 

 

Can all people be pleased all the time?  There will always be those naysayers that have someone else to blame for something but from my saddle, life is what you make of the challenges you are faced with.  

 

Are there things I would like to be different?  Sure but not enough to keep me away from the game.  I pick and choose the matches I attend to make the most of my experience whether it is a legacy match, fast and close, or a national venue.

 

The top competitors are the least of my concerns when attending a match.  I applaud their dedication and drive to be the best they can be.

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I guess the posses I shoot with would be considered "Olde School"

We have fast shooters, but even they enjoy our fun type starts and mid stage "events" : Throwing a dagger at a hay bale; holding a drink at the bar; throwing a "floozy" off your lap before engaging the targets; picking up "Lefty" after shooting part of the stage and dropping him in Wu's pig pen with the line "Here's another one for ya Wu! Hang Dai!; shooting a derringer into a card cheat (cardboard target) while seated playing poker, etc. 

All after the line and the beep.

Good Lord, we sure have fun. Can't wait to see what the boys have dreamed up over the winter and what the prop makers have put together!

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17 hours ago, Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 said:

Sorry, but you are wrong. The #1 reason we don't see the stuff that we did 15-20 years ago is because the majority of the shooters barely have the energy to walk back to their cars. Thats not a rip, it's a fact. The shooting population has aged. I'd crawl under a wagon or shoot from a claw foot bath tub and do it with a smile on my face. More specifically the matches here in Mi are not catering to top shooters........they are being put on by top shooters. Rockford, Hastings, Scottville, Sucker Creek, Saginaw.......all being produced by top shooters who work thier butts off for the game. Not to mention we would not have our state shoot if it were not for the group of "top shooters" that volunteered a enire week of their time to work like dogs so others can have fun. If a match was set today like we did back in the day 75% of the shooters would think they were on another planet because they never experienced it. When I started it was common to leave the club driveway at 4pm........nowadays keep anybody past 1:30 and you will get hung. Pretty sick and tired of seeing "top shooters" getting blamed for the perceived demise of the game when time and age is the biggest factor we are fighting. 

Im not blaming anyone for any demise of anything.

Nore do I think the Shenanigans would change the outcome of the game .

Some stuff would be fun and Maybe just maybe people would lighten up a little .

Its a game for fun !

Nothing to gain from it but bragging rights anyways.

Its supposed to be fun and not all the bickering all the time .

Rooster 

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23 hours ago, Rooster Ron Wayne said:

Its gone away because SASS Clubs are Catering to the Top Shooters .

This stuff all takes time , and the top shooters dont like that .

Just telling it The way it is .

Rooster 

 

1 hour ago, Rooster Ron Wayne said:

Im not blaming anyone for any demise of anything.

Nore do I think the Shenanigans would change the outcome of the game .

Some stuff would be fun and Maybe just maybe people would lighten up a little .

Its a game for fun !

Nothing to gain from it but bragging rights anyways.

Its supposed to be fun and not all the bickering all the time .

Rooster 

Would sort of seem like you were?

 

Randy

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I'd be curious to know if anyone who has ever opined for the "old ways" was a match director.  Probably somewhere there is an exception, but by and large I doubt it.  Match directors cater to their shooters, or their real small batch(because that's all that like it) of "buddies" that like to shoot a certain way.  I was tempted to reply with the line I've seen here many times: "go invest your time, money and energy into putting on a shoot and try it out, see if people keep coming back", but that's too easily dismissed. <_<

 

I'm not sure how far back we need to go to get the "fun stuff' back, maybe before I got involved.  When I started the match in Hastings back in the 90's, I had donated props we used occasionally like a bath tub and a casket, even then the majority of shooters didn't think those were fun then.  I thought we were doing really good to be shooting at steel that Rusty Steel donated that was 8-12" in diameter, because many clubs back then shot at even smaller scraps of steel or chains or plow discs.  Yes, they really did!  Fortunately, they were usually so far away :rolleyes: that splatter and ricochets were uncommon.  I had a 24" circle that we used and frankly, plenty of folks thought I had lost my mind, where was the fun/challenge in that?!  That small stuff evolved out, due to SHOOTER FEEDBACK.  Fast forward 10 years and my wife and son are shooting with me regularly.  We show up at a match and the targets are like what we had back then?  I got plenty of "feedback":P from them that I didn't need to bring them back to shoot there because that wasn't fun.

 

I don't think you're going to see many, if any, match directors that will jeopardize a successful shoot that they've built, to cater to a few folks with rose colored glasses.  Few match directors make money on their shoots or can pocket what they do make.:blush:  They make their decisions on whats best for most.  Maybe that's not you, if what they're doing isn't to your liking, maybe its not for you.  They can only please the majority. 

 

3 pages on this thread and it seems that for a practical purpose, the majority agree though.  Have some activity not on the clock.  Have some movement.  Have some props.  Don't let a chance activity decide the outcome.  That's what I've experienced at the vast majority of the shoots I've been to in the last 15 years.  And perhaps the area's where I've been fortunate to shoot are more adept at having fun, because I've shot places that have had plenty, and none of that, but we ALWAYS had fun.:D

 

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As to one that has written monthlies and annuals, you can't please everyone. Move targets out farther or make them smaller, or even complicated stages, I heard complaints. Move em in closer, larger, and simplify the procedures. Yup! Heard complaints. But I can honestly say I never received one complaint from any so-called Top Guns or Fast Shooters. They took whatever was offered.

Rather, approach your Match Director and ask if you can help write stages, set up scenarios, and help set up targets for the match. If you want some fun added factors, try some for a stage or 2, as long safety and consideration is taken for older shooters who may not be able to accomplish some things.

Writing stages can be as much fun as shooting them.  MT

Just a suggestion.

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Hi Folks,

 

I too would like to do better in the standings; however, not enough to practice. I physically can not practice or shoot as much as I did when I first started (age 49). Hubby and I shot 4 to 5 matches a month and practiced one day a  month. If you want to be a winner, it requires work. Those who work for anything, have my respect as do those who just love the sport while knowing they will not be a winner.

 

I still like shooting, dressing up, hanging out with friends, and eating out after a match.

 

There is a place for all of us in SASS!

 

:wub: y'all!

 

Allie

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Well,

 

Why can't I perform at the same level as  when I started CAS/SAS 15 years ago in 2002 at age 53 ?

 

(1) Worn out shoulders, hands, knees, feet &  back. (2) Reduced strength, endurance & agility. (3) Less acute vision & mental focus.  (4) Compromised cardio-vascular system. I will attempt all scenarios with whatever gusto I have left including reloads, aerials and bonuses. Multiple shooting positions, no problem.

 

We are blessed in E .Tennessee with a place to shoot every weekend. The clubs in our area provide competitive entertaining matches; Greenville Regulators, Oak Ridge Outlaws, Ocoee Rangers & TN Mountain Marauders.

 

Hasta Luego, Keystone

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Another problem with doing the fun stuff is that it takes more time, often a lot more time.  It also makes for more work for posse members.  We shoot six stages, starting at 10:00 and finish about 2:00.  That's with out a lunch break. I have some neat props like a Texas Star, but boy does it slow down resetting the stage, and it is work getting those plates back on.  Sure is fun to shoot but I don't use it but once a year. Same thing goes for throwing knives or a rope.

 

Another club has a moving Target that is lots of fun. I really enjoy it, but again it slows getting the posse through the stage a lot.  

 

So I do fun things which slow things down only occasionally, except for my two poppers that throw birds that get used about every match as my reward to myself for running the match.

 

SR

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I try to have fun regardless of whether or not there are funny lines or props. I do enjoy some change or challenge outside what seems to have become the norm. Like, bonuses for shooting the rifle target with your six-guns or having a stage with 3 revolvers or having to shoot 8 shotgun targets vs 4...

A little variety adds a little spice and s little more fun.

 

Someone that shot a stage in 17 seconds joked with me about my 60 second time (my rifle was ejecting live rounds out with the spent rounds) but I kept loading and shooting (clean stage:)). I joked that I was trying to get my money’s worth at the line. :D 

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The beauty of SASS is you have the option to make it what you want it.  There are clubs in AZ that do well without big and close, and there are clubs that still do the crazy old day activities.  Have fun and let the games begin!!!  Let's bury the hatchet.  No, big and close!!!!

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3 hours ago, Kirk James said:

The beauty of SASS is you have the option to make it what you want it.  There are clubs in AZ that do well without big and close, and there are clubs that still do the crazy old day activities.  Have fun and let the games begin!!!  Let's bury the hatchet.  No, big and close!!!!

 

Hey, there’s an idea:  on the clock, require each shooter to pick up a toy shovel, go across to a little sandbox, dig a hole in the sand, and place a hatchet in said hole.  Forgot the hatchet was on the other side of the stage?  Go back and get it. Cover up the hatchet with the shovel, say a little prayer of goodwill, and finally move to the line to commence shooting.   All on the clock. 

 

I kid, of course :P

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23 hours ago, Widowmaker Hill SASS #59054 said:

Marshal Dan Troop,

its funny that I posted my lengthy comment within 1 minute of yours.

I found it interesting that your comment about 'Clothes' is the same as mine.

 

Merry Christmas to ALL.

 

..........Widder

 

Widder

 

Some of us enjoy the Clothes.    You don't think that Elvis suit was already hanging in the bunk house before Black Gold.  Or the are you Tough Enough  to Wear Pink Outfits sported by several of us at the Tennessee State.   Its all part of the Fun.  and if makes a few others smile then it is well worth it.

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Howdy Drifter.

 

It wasn't ME who had any dislike for our clothing or felt 'funny' about wearing the Cowboy attire.

 

I was making mention that its the 'visitors' to our matches that shoot other shooting disciplines (IDPA, 3-gun, etc...)  are the folks who have made verbal references to our Cowboy attire when I get to talk to some of them at one of our matches.

And ironically, Marshal Dan Troop had also mentioned in his comment that he has experienced the same thing from observers of other shooting disciplines.

 

As for me, I like our clothing.    Many of our Pards, both Cowboy and Cowgirl, are very classy looking in their western clothing.  I think its great.

 

MERRY CHRISTMAS and I hope those long guns are serving you well.

 

..........Widder

 

 

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14 minutes ago, Widowmaker Hill SASS #59054 said:

Howdy Drifter.

 

It wasn't ME who had any dislike for our clothing or felt 'funny' about wearing the Cowboy attire.

 

I was making mention that its the 'visitors' to our matches that shoot other shooting disciplines (IDPA, 3-gun, etc...)  are the folks who have made verbal references to our Cowboy attire when I get to talk to some of them at one of our matches.

And ironically, Marshal Dan Troop had also mentioned in his comment that he has experienced the same thing from observers of other shooting disciplines.

 

As for me, I like our clothing.    Many of our Pards, both Cowboy and Cowgirl, are very classy looking in their western clothing.  I think its great.

 

MERRY CHRISTMAS and I hope those long guns are serving you well.

 

..........Widder

 

 

Best Christmas Gifts i have Gotten even if they were Early.

 

 

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2 hours ago, Widowmaker Hill SASS #59054 said:

Howdy Drifter.

 

It wasn't ME who had any dislike for our clothing or felt 'funny' about wearing the Cowboy attire.

 

I was making mention that its the 'visitors' to our matches that shoot other shooting disciplines (IDPA, 3-gun, etc...)  are the folks who have made verbal references to our Cowboy attire when I get to talk to some of them at one of our matches.

And ironically, Marshal Dan Troop had also mentioned in his comment that he has experienced the same thing from observers of other shooting disciplines.

 

As for me, I like our clothing.    Many of our Pards, both Cowboy and Cowgirl, are very classy looking in their western clothing.  I think its great.

 

MERRY CHRISTMAS and I hope those long guns are serving you well.

 

..........Widder

 

 

I, too, have heard some disdain for the clothing we wear. The funny thing is that when you look at all the action shooting games out there, it's the cowboy shoots that tend to draw outside observers. I don't see the same interest with the other games from bystanders. Just about every shoot I attend, there will be onlookers checking out the action. I have to assume it's the clothing that draws them over to watch us play. That or all the smoke I make with my BP rounds. Shooting FCGF really tends to draw a crowd, and the fire department.

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Disdain about our clothing?

 

I live in the boonies. So, when I pass the grocery store, I stop. Sometimes, it is after a match. I love the reaction! People smile and ask me what I've been doing.. It puts a smile on my face to tell them about our beloved sport

 

We have a dedicated Cowboy venue at a large range that has many shooting sports. Frequently, people come by to watch.  I don't see any of them ridiculing us.

 

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4 hours ago, Widowmaker Hill SASS #59054 said:

Howdy Drifter.

 

It wasn't ME who had any dislike for our clothing or felt 'funny' about wearing the Cowboy attire.

 

I was making mention that its the 'visitors' to our matches that shoot other shooting disciplines (IDPA, 3-gun, etc...)  are the folks who have made verbal references to our Cowboy attire when I get to talk to some of them at one of our matches.

And ironically, Marshal Dan Troop had also mentioned in his comment that he has experienced the same thing from observers of other shooting disciplines.

 

As for me, I like our clothing.    Many of our Pards, both Cowboy and Cowgirl, are very classy looking in their western clothing.  I think its great.

 

MERRY CHRISTMAS and I hope those long guns are serving you well.

 

..........Widder

 

 

In a way, sometimes in my view, some of those other shooting games dress attire is funny looking and some look like a billboard.  But no matter how we dress, or what shooting game we play, we all have something in common, firearms, safety, and having fun doing so.  MT

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23 hours ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

 

Would sort of seem like you were?

 

Randy

The question was asked .

The my  answer was given .

I still stand by my answer .

Some valid  points have been made for me to understand another point of view .

Rooster 

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HOWDY. 25 years past the winner was by chance the lucky one on the day. Once in a while it was the fastest shooter but not usually.  Competition or recreation? Most shooters are older. HALF of the posse  members in the   picture  beside me are DEAD. I think I can do all that stuff still but I do like my 2 o'clock nap.  So we may be looking for some kind of balance.

  It will be a dance to keep it interesting but not too overburden.

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On ‎12‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 9:31 AM, Henry T Harrison said:

I hate to burst your bubble but the other disciplines are already laughing their butts off at targets so big and close you can kick them over and mouse fart loads so mild the timer won't register rifle rounds

They do that UNTIL they shoot it. Then they see the speed at which we can acquisition those targets and it humbles them. If I had a $1 for everytime I saw one of those guys say that then get up and miss 5 in one stage I could retire. It's a lot easier to make fun of us when they aren't in the game..........lol

 

Anyone that is good at what they do makes it look easier than it is. 

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48 minutes ago, Cowboy Junky said:

They do that UNTIL they shoot it. Then they see the speed at which we can acquisition those targets and it humbles them. If I had a $1 for everytime I saw one of those guys say that then get up and miss 5 in one stage I could retire. It's a lot easier to make fun of us when they aren't in the game..........lol

 

Anyone that is good at what they do makes it look easier than it is. 

At the range I practice and shoot at, there are weekly practices also by different Police Departments using the range to keep qualified and can also hone their skills. Be surprised how many misses are recorded by man size target 10 yds or closer.

What many forget is that most shootouts are close quarters, in the Old West and even in modern times. CAS is not Long Range shooting, but rather in a small part recreating safely these types of shootouts, real or Reel type.

If our game was so easy with big and close targets, I have to ask how come we aren't seeing or hearing 100% clean matches for shooters?  You can be sure if a club encounters 100% clean matches for every shooter, targets are going to be smaller or farther out. You can bet if our game was or looks that easy, hurdles would be emplaced.

Again, I'm not seeing the clean matches one would expect from big and close targets complaints.  MT

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WOW, What a thread!

In my opinion, target size and distance is a red herring.  We are here to have fun and shoot, and if big, close targets let people have more fun, then let us have them.

An occasional target at longer range can be included if the participants think it is fun.

A small target can be used as an off the clock bonus or a side match - I like to shoot at playing cards turned edge toward the shooter and say: "this is how we cut the cards in Texas!"

At Black Gold they solved the problem of "Fun things to do" with the Cowboy Olympics, where you shoot bow and arrow, lasso the steer and etc. as a separate match.

Incidentally, I think that Joe loses money on Black Gold, but he puts on one heck of a good match and we have one heck of a good time.

To me, dressing up is much more fun than going out and shooting in my street close.   When I stop somewhere and am asked why I dress that way I either explain Cowboy Action Shooting or tell them that I am an extra in a movie about Bat Masterson. 

I know people who do not like the costuming part - they are welcome to shoot IPSC matches.

I quit trying for speed years ago.  Thus I have three times as much fun as T-bone or Widder because I get to shoot three times as long.

 

Good Luck,

Duffield

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Hi Folks,

 

When someone comes up to us at the range. I like to explain how much fun it is for the fastest or slowest (me). I will explain how our latest world champion, Matt Black, can shoot 10-10-4, with movement in 9 seconds where it takes me 40-50 (or more :o) seconds. I love our sport, because you can have fun no matter what your skill level is.

 

Goofiness  can be fun. However, I'm just as happy with it off the clock, unless it is really easy, like carrying a bag of gold from position to position. I cannot shoot a bow and arrow nor throw a knife. I've had to do both of these on the clock. Then, there was the match where we had to shoot Duelist style on a stage. I did it; but, thought it was only fair to duelists or folks whose guns fit their hands perfectly one handed. At another match, all of the targets had to be shot from the hip (Outlaw style). That should only be a choice, not mandatory for everyone. The duelist-style stage was written by a Duelist and the Outlaw stage was written by a LEO who had training in shooting from the hip. Such things give the appearance of impropriety to a match.

 

Oh yes, then there was a big barrel horse we had to climb up and sit on to shoot, while someone rocked it. That was definitely not equal for everyone. We had to count hits instead of misses.

 

One match I attended around 2000 was fun with great people; BUT, some stages went too far. Examples, are picking a bolt out of a bowl of string with chopsticks, shooting through laundry with wind gusts making shooting vary for everyone, starting with a noose around your neck (ladies frequently do not want to remove their hats). Every stage had something quirky on the clock.

 

"Fun" can still be part of the game, just carefully consider the repercussions and how things on the clock may adversely effect the least-capable shooters.

 

Sincerely,

 

Allie Mo

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3 hours ago, Cowboy Junky said:

They do that UNTIL they shoot it. Then they see the speed at which we can acquisition those targets and it humbles them. If I had a $1 for everytime I saw one of those guys say that then get up and miss 5 in one stage I could retire. It's a lot easier to make fun of us when they aren't in the game..........lol

 

Anyone that is good at what they do makes it look easier than it is. 

And sometimes we take off our cowboy duds, pick up the guns of another discipline and shoot their game. "What?! You mean I don't have to cock this thing?!" :lol:  Mag changes remind me of reloading on the clock. . .but easier. 

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1 hour ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

Hi Folks,

 

....

Goofiness  can be fun. However, I'm just as happy with it off the clock, unless it is really easy, like carrying a bag of gold from position to position. I cannot shoot a bow and arrow nor throw a knife. I've had to do both of these on the clock. Then, there was the match where we had to shoot Duelist style on a stage. I did it; but, thought it was only fair to duelists or folks whose guns fit their hands perfectly one handed. At another match, all of the targets had to be shot from the hip (Outlaw style). That should only be a choice, not mandatory for everyone. The duelist-style stage was written by a Duelist and the Outlaw stage was written by a LEO who had training in shooting from the hip. Such things give the appearance of impropriety to a match.

....

 

Sincerely,

 

Allie Mo

Allie,  This is exactly why Copperhead Joe set up the Cowboy Olympics as a separate part of the match.  It is all off the clock and in the afternoon, after the day's match stages have been shot.  Participation is completely voluntary, and in fact most of us just watch.  Anything out of the ordinary is a side match and well planned to be fair to everybody.

You and your husband should come to Black Gold and enjoy the fun.  I know it will be a long trip for you, but I bet you can't do just one.

 

Duffield

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4 hours ago, Cowboy Junky said:

They do that UNTIL they shoot it. Then they see the speed at which we can acquisition those targets and it humbles them. If I had a $1 for everytime I saw one of those guys say that then get up and miss 5 in one stage I could retire. It's a lot easier to make fun of us when they aren't in the game..........lol

 

Anyone that is good at what they do makes it look easier than it is. 

Bordertown has the reputation of being among, if not the, Closest, Biggest & Fastest match going. This year a little less than 27% shot clean.

Just proves that's there's no such thing as a target too big or too close to miss or mess up the sequence on when you're racing the clock.

 

I've read a number of posts about "Cowboys vs. Cops" and "Cowboy vs. Semi-Auto" shoots and it sounded like fun.

When I asked several people who have been around a lot longer than I have about it the answer was almost universal,

"We used to do them but the opposition got tired of getting their butts handed to them by guy's shooting 19th century weapons and quit coming.". 

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The Jefferson Rifle Club near Hannover, PA has two "RETRO" shoots per year with all of the FUN stuff sometimes on the clock and sometimes off the clock.  My wife and I attend both of them.  I am sure that there are other shooting sports with money prizes that serious competitors can drive for 1st place at any cost; let them do that.  I plan to attend CAS shoots with the fun stuff when ever I can (within 2 hours drive from mid Maryland). 

 

Shoot safe and have fun!

Chestnut Louie

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This topic comes up fairly often and it seems to always boil down to a debate between people who are just 'here to have fun' and those who in their view 'aren't there just to have fun'.  Those who are labeled as  'aren't there just to have fun' always seem to be the fast shooters.  It never seems to occur to those who are there 'just to have fun' that perhaps the fast shooters find shooting fast and perhaps winning to be fun.  

 

One consistent theme is that the fast shooters don't spend much time complaining about those who are there 'just to have fun', but those who are there 'just to have fun' spend lots of time griping about those darned gamers.

 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I'm pretty sure that we use a timer in this game.  I suspect that's because time is a big element of the game.  It sure would be nice if we had a tent big enough for everyone to enjoy the aspect of the game that they find most entertaining.  I've never heard a top shooter in Georgia complain about too much 'action' in a SASS match, but I've heard tons of the 'just there to have fun' crowd complaining about 'catering to the fast shooters'.  If it's that bad, you have feet, vote with them.

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I have two kids that are in the category of fast shooters.  I do the best I can, but by no means are considered fast.  We shoot with some of the fastest shooters in the world and always have slower shooters on our posse.  One of the aspects I most enjoy is that everyone always seems to be having a great time regardless of the scores.  While there are moments of celebration, there are disappointing moments.  But everyone is having fun.  My kids have a great time and are almost always treated with respect as I hope they treat others with the same respect.  It is a shooting family.  There will always be shooters that blame their poor eye sight or slower reflexes and there will always be shooters that work their butts off and the results show on the scoreboard.  The only negative comments I hear about fast thumbing, they could never hit a far target, etc.... is on the wire.  Cowboy shooters are an incredible group of individuals you want to raise your kids around.  Thank you for helping me raise mine.

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9 hours ago, Cowboy Junky said:

They do that UNTIL they shoot it. Then they see the speed at which we can acquisition those targets and it humbles them. If I had a $1 for everytime I saw one of those guys say that then get up and miss 5 in one stage I could retire. It's a lot easier to make fun of us when they aren't in the game..........lol

 

Anyone that is good at what they do makes it look easier than it is. 

Of course they miss, they are shooting a type of firearm that most are very unfamiliar with, give them a 1911 and see what happens. As far as target acquisition they are very used to picking up small targets at ranges 10x the distance SASS shoots often surrounded by no shoot targets

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