Making some sense of Reloading Dies

[Hardcase Hardin]

Well, I've been whiling away my time scoping out reloading vids for a few days now and after a ph convo with one reloader, I have some info to help in my choice of presses, tho I won't be pulling that trigger for awhile yet.

 

I'm going to be running .44-40 for my rifle and eventually will likely also have revolvers as well (stickin with the 51 Navies for now). 

 

I see Hornady (why do people call them Hornaday?) carries .44-40 Cowboy dies, but I can't tell from the descriptions what exactly is in the set.  I have it in my Amazon list, but can't find it on the Hornady site.  

 

I know there's a Sizing/decapping die and a seating/crimp die.  Is the expander die a powder through expander like what I've seen in so many vids?  And I seem to recall it being mentioned I'd also need a Factory Crimp die as well, I have a Lee die saved in my Amazon favs.

 

I did a quick run down of what the ammo components are likely to cost and was amazed at the savings per 1000 rds.  Won't take long to pay for the loader.

[Backslidin']

Lee has the powder through die.  You can put a Lee case activated powder measure on that die, such as the Lee auto drum.  You then expand the case mouth and drop the powder at the same time.  Lee also makes the factory crimp die.

 

For 44-40, I use the RCBS cowboy dies.  I haven't experienced any the usual complaints of crushing cases etc. using that die set.  I have no experience with the Hornady 44-40 dies. 

 

 

[John Henry Quick]

I'm still using an old RCBS Rock Chucker and Lee dies.  I bought a Redding Pro Crimp die because it does a much nicer job than the Lee die.  The Lee flaring die is a pass-through, but that matters not to me.  Also, because I only use real black powder, I use a Hornady Lock-N-Load Black Powder Measure - you can use scoops, but the Lock-N-Load is faster and more consistent, not to mention quickly switching from 30 to 70 grains and back again when I'm making shotshells and .44-40 loads.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

You'll find a lot of opinions about what die is perfect, too.

 

What I use - the RCBS Cowboy die set for .44-40.   

http://rcbs.com/Products/Dies-by-Category/Cowboy/Cowboy-Dies-3-Die-Roll-Crimp-Set.aspx

(I don't think Hornady makes special cowboy die sets, if they do, they will be hard to find.)  Why the Cowboy set?  Because the expander button in the expander die is about 0.429" diameter instead of the regular die set which has a .427" expander button.  That larger button (which is also the size used in .44 mag dies) makes it possible to load a .429" or .430 bullet without collapsing the shoulder of the case because of a tight bullet fit in the case neck.

 

To quickly cover what those dies do in a three die pistol set -

* first die - decap, size,    (i.e., remove fired primer, and resize case back down to minimum size)

* second die - expand neck and put a slight bell on the mouth (neck needs to allow your lead slug to start down into the case by finger pressure - if it won't enter the case or has to be shoved hard, you will damage cases or bullets as you seat them)

* third die - seat and crimp, or even better, just seat bullet

* fourth die - crimp case mouth around bullet   - this one is not in almost all .44-40 die sets!

 

If you are using a progressive loader with a powder-drop-thru-die design as your second die, then for that neck expander sleeve, you will want a .44 mag sleeve rather than a .44-40 sleeve (which is normally too tight for a lead bullet at .429").

 

If you do buy a die set that has the small diameter neck expander button/sleeve, then you should contact the maker and have them send you the larger one, for a .44 mag die set.

 

Hold it, fourth die?  Yes, with a bottleneck pistol cartridge (.44-40) the case is thin, and seating and crimping is very finicky.  Although a real experienced loader can make a good cartridge without bulging necks and collapsing shoulders, you probably won't for the first few hundred you load.  Separating the seating step and the crimping step is a REAL good thing to do on .44-40.   The separate seater die is used to let you insure that seating is exactly right depth (mouth of case shy of the driving band above where you want to crimp), followed by a crimp only die that cannot move the slug deeper, it ONLY roll crimps.

 

The Lee Factory Crimp Die is good.   But, the Redding Profile Crimp Die in 44-40 is EVEN BETTER.  I started with Lee FCD.  After still having problems getting a perfect crimp and no case damage, I went to the Redding and have tossed the Lee.   It makes the tightest crimp, and it properly forces the  neck back into shape if any bulging occurred because you had a slightly over-length case.

 

You should review all the loading steps in a good loading manual.  The Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook is really good at explaining the loading process.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

Here's a thread from over a year ago on why the Cowboy die set topic -

 

https://www.sassnet.com/forums/index.php?/topic/246874-difference-in-cowboy-dies-and-regular-dies/

 

[Slow Mo Dern]

Hi Hardcase,

 

     Another press to think about is a Dillon Square Deal B.  It makes pistol cartridges only but Dillon's catalog lists it as being able to make 44-40 rounds.

 

     You had mentioned wanting something economical so you might want to try the Dillon.  It only uses Square Deal dies though.

 

     Do you want to shoot black powder or smokeless?  Or both?  

 

     Mo

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Oh, you mean these new Hornady dies?

 

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1011098266/hornady-cowboy-3-die-set

 

Haven't used them.  I would HATE that "floating seater" die for seating and crimping lead bullets, especially if conventionally lubed.  That floating seater sleeve does not work well for very long until the lube has to be cleaned out of the die.  And then it's a pain in the rear (yeah, I have one for a rifle caliber or two) to readjust seating depth.  That type of seating sleeve design is best used for really precise rifle seating using jacketed slugs.  To even think it's going to work loading low-precision gummy lead slugs that need to be cranked out quickly makes me think they turned design of that die set over to someone who hasn't shot cowboy games.

 

With .44-40, I am thoroughly convinced you want to do seating in one die and crimping in a separate step!

 

AND:

Quote

Is the expander die a powder through expander like what I've seen in so many vids? 

 

Nope, it's a standard expander die, to go in a single-stage or turret conventional loading press.   No way to drop powder through the top - that's where the stem for the expander button in screwed in.  Any good progressive press provides it's own combination expander sleeve and automatic powder measure die so that as the case is shoved into that die, the powder charge drops through the expander sleeve and the sleeve expands the case neck and puts a slight bell on case mouth.  

 

 

Good luck, GJ

[Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L]

23 minutes ago, Slow Mo Dern said:

Hi Hardcase,

 

     Another press to think about is a Dillon Square Deal B.  It makes pistol cartridges only but Dillon's catalog lists it as being able to make 44-40 rounds.

 

     You had mentioned wanting something economical so you might want to try the Dillon.  It only uses Square Deal dies though.

 

     Do you want to shoot black powder or smokeless?  Or both?  

 

     Mo

 

I'm using the SDB with 44-40 dies and have nothing but good things to say.  

 

back when I was starting out I had nothing so the type of dies I got didn't matter.  Got the SDB and added their SDB specific dies as the years passed

can do .32, 38/.357, 40, 44, 45 Colt and ACP, 44-40 and 9 mm.  Takes me less than 10 minutes to switch out though I've got several SDB, one in large primer and one in small

 

Their "No BS Warranty" really does work--call or email and within a week new parts are delievered

 

One fly in the ointment is if you plan to do rifle reloading (yes I know 44-40 is rifle but there's always an exception) you'll need another press.  I have the Lee Classic Cast for this which works fine as I don't reload as much as I do of pistol calibers--being a cowboy and all pistol-caliber kinda 'rules the day.'

[LostVaquero]

Well I tend to use Lee dies.  They make a carbide 44-40 three die (decapper/sizer), expander (with through the die powder charging) and seating/crimp die.  They also make a factory crimp die. 

 

I use a Hornady LNL press but might be moving to a RCBS prochucker 7.  I have run out of die stations as I like to do things separately at each station to an extent.

1. decap/size

2. expand/powder

3. powder check

4. bullet feeder

5. bullet seater

6. cartridge crimp

 

Also check the bore of your 44-40s.  Most modern barrels are at .429 since it is easier to use that size for more common 44 mag but there are some 44-40s that are still the .427

[Hardcase Hardin]

Slow MO, Yes.  For now I'll run smokeless.  When I can set up a loading bench (after the house is built) I want to start loading for Smoke, eith full BP or a SASS legal sub.

 

CJ, you got it.  I found the same Hornady set on Amazon, but didn't wanna get in trouble posting the link.  Based on what you've said already seating and crimping SHOULD be separate functions and I'm good with that.  And THANKS for the suggestions on which dies to get.  I want to try to start out as trouble free as possible.

 

I will say I like the progressives, although I can also see the wisdom of starting on a single stage to learn every function one at a time.  With my background I'm pretty confident that I can figure a progressive out fairly quick tho.  If I do go single first it's likely be the Hornady single so I could keep using the dies.

 

Had quite a discussion for a couple days on the SASS G & A FB page.  It appears that the XL 650 is kinda popular.  And after talkin to some folks and crunching some numbers I might be leaning that way.  If you include the case feeder there's only about $100 between it and the LnL AP.

 

But that blue has gotta go!  No self respecting BUCKEYE would EVER have a big blue machine.  I told 76Highboy I'd hafta paint the thing red if I buy one.

 

LV - With my attention span a powder checker/powder cop will be a must have.

[Ricochet Rojo]

Just a reminder that you will need to lube those cases before sizing/decapping. 44-40 is a bottlenecked case, and I don't believe that carbide dies are available. At least not with rcbs. Just saying.

 

[Noz]

I use Lee dies for everything from 38 Special thru 45-70.  Never a problem.

Evaluate your need for speed in loading.  I get along quite well with my Lee turret press.  Can't brag about speed but my father always said"Time don't mean nothing to a hog".

[Hardcase Hardin]

36 minutes ago, Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L said:

One fly in the ointment is if you plan to do rifle reloading

 

I do.  A buddy is selling his Browning 1886 in 45-70 to me.  I might get to play with it this summer if he gets home to send it to me before I head back to Ukraine.  May also add 30-30 to the mix later on as well.  Give my brother some good hunting ammo for Christmas some year or other and I have plans to find a nice Glenfield 30 to go with the two 60s I have.

[Hardcase Hardin]

2 minutes ago, Noz said:

I use Lee dies for everything from 38 Special thru 45-70.  Never a problem.

Evaluate your need for speed in loading.  I get along quite well with my Lee turret press.  Can't brag about speed but my father always said"Time don't mean nothing to a hog".

 

As long as we have ammo for practices and matches I don't much care how fast I crank em out.  Don't wanna run the press all night either.

 

For me efficiency is more important than speed and a progressive does fill that bill.

 

[Thunder Creek Kid]

You will need a 44 powder thru expander if you are going to use the powder measure that comes with the Hornady LNL.

I am currently using the Hornady Cowboy Dies and I like them. Another cowboy earlier recommended a Redding Profile Crimp Die

I most definitely agree with this. This final step will save you a lot of trouble. Another thing I use and strongly recommend is a

RCBS Lock Out Die a very good safety item.

[Warden Callaway]

1 hour ago, Backslidin' said:

Lee has the powder through die.  You can put a Lee case activated powder measure on that die, such as the Lee auto drum.  You then expand the case mouth and drop the powder at the same time.  Lee also makes the factory crimp die.

 

For 44-40, I use the RCBS cowboy dies.  I haven't experienced any the usual complaints of crushing cases etc. using that die set.  I have no experience with the Hornady 44-40 dies. 

 

 

 

Me too.  I load on Dillon 550b and use the Lee powder through die for black powder by mounting a Lyman black powder measure on top.  I have a couple of Lyman 55 measures I can use with smokeless with no other change.  Or I can pull the Lee powder through die and replace it with the Dillon powder through die and hook up the Dillon powder measure.

 

I otherwise use RCBS Cowboy dies.  

 

I hit the cases with Hornady One Shot to lube.

 

[Sixgun Seamus]

27 minutes ago, Hardcase Hardin said:

But that blue has gotta go!  No self respecting BUCKEYE would EVER have a big blue machine.

 

Amen, brother.

 

FWIW.  I use a Hornady LNL progessive and love it. Never had a problem that I didn't cause. All the major reloading companies have great customer service and will take care of you. It all comes down to Ford vs Chevy. Which press do you like?

[Hardcase Hardin]

7 minutes ago, Sixgun Seamus said:

Amen, brother.

 

FWIW.  I use a Hornady LNL progessive and love it. Never had a problem that I didn't cause. All the major reloading companies have great customer service and will take care of you. It all comes down to Ford vs Chevy. Which press do you like?

 

I have to admit, there's something about that LnL AP that appeals to me.  Yter, 76Highboy did a great 6 pt series on it, then a couple years later he's all blue.  Apparently he made some critical remarks about them and they pulled their support and Dillon swooped in.  He told me on the phone yesterday that the AP was more fiddly than he'd let on about.  But it WOULD save me a big paint job.  lol

 

Maybe should make a separate thread for the Press debate.   

[Ricochet Rojo]

I am very happy with my rcbs rockchucker, it is one very solid press. But I reload manually, one step, and one round at a time. I average only 50 rds per hour, but I've got the time, during the winter nights here in Pa. Maybe that's why I have never really ruined a 44-40 reload, after 5 years. Lol. I realize that slow is not for everyone, but on the safety side, I am way less likely to double charge a round. ( Hope that I didn't jinx myself) lol. Good luck with whatever press that you go with, just be careful and enjoy your new found hobby!

[John Henry Quick]

49 minutes ago, Ricochet Rojo said:

I am very happy with my rcbs rockchucker, it is one very solid press. But I reload manually, one step, and one round at a time. I average only 50 rds per hour, but I've got the time, during the winter nights here in Pa. Maybe that's why I have never really ruined a 44-40 reload, after 5 years. Lol. I realize that slow is not for everyone, but on the safety side, I am way less likely to double charge a round. ( Hope that I didn't jinx myself) lol. Good luck with whatever press that you go with, just be careful and enjoy your new found hobby!

 

Use black powder and you'll never double charge it! 

[Ricochet Rojo]

1 minute ago, John Henry Quick said:

 

Use black powder and you'll never double charge it! 

That day is coming. Just need to pickup a separate powder charger. I've been wanting to load BP for quite some time. Gee, Christmas is right around the corner!

[John Henry Quick]

2 minutes ago, Ricochet Rojo said:

That day is coming. Just need to pickup a separate powder charger. I've been wanting to load BP for quite some time. Gee, Christmas is right around the corner!

 

I use the Hornady Lock-N-Load BP powder throw, but you can use a brass flask like this one https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/69/2/FLASK-PS and move pretty efficiently.  Also, the cheapest and still perfectly valid way of doing it is with a Lee dipper.

[Ricochet Rojo]

4 minutes ago, John Henry Quick said:

 

I use the Hornady Lock-N-Load BP powder throw, but you can use a brass flask like this one https://www.trackofthewolf.com/Categories/PartDetail.aspx/69/2/FLASK-PS and move pretty efficiently.  Also, the cheapest and still perfectly valid way of doing it is with a Lee dipper.

I will be looking for recipes next. Any manuals that you recommend?

[Hardcase Hardin]

12 minutes ago, Ricochet Rojo said:

I will be looking for recipes next. Any manuals that you recommend?

All of them? 

[John Henry Quick]

11 minutes ago, Ricochet Rojo said:

I will be looking for recipes next. Any manuals that you recommend?

 

There's a ton of recipes at Hodgdon's wesite:  http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/

 

There's quite a few at M.D. Smith's website, but realize that this is not an official site and is not authoritative:  http://www.reloadammo.com/reload.htm

 

The Speer Reloading Manual #14 has great articles to learn all about reloading metallic cartridges: https://www.amazon.com/Speer-9515-Reloading-Manual-Number/dp/B001YB68SC/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1512934941&sr=8-2&keywords=speer+reloading+manual+15

 

The Lyman Shotshell Handbook should be required reading for anyone loading shotgun shells:  https://www.amazon.com/Lyman-Shotshell-Handbook-5Th-Edition/dp/B00162MK2M/ref=sr_1_1?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1512935165&sr=1-1&keywords=lyman+shotshell+handbook

 

[Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667]

3 hours ago, Thunder Creek Kid said:

You will need a 44 powder thru expander if you are going to use the powder measure that comes with the Hornady LNL.

........ Another thing I use and strongly recommend is a

RCBS Lock Out Die a very good safety item.

 

For revolver cartridges I use an expander die in Station 2 and charge in Station 3.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with you about the RCBS Lockout Die.

[Ricochet Rojo]

1 hour ago, John Henry Quick said:

 

There's a ton of recipes at Hodgdon's wesite:  http://www.hodgdonreloading.com/

 

There's quite a few at M.D. Smith's website, but realize that this is not an official site and is not authoritative:  http://www.reloadammo.com/reload.htm

 

The Speer Reloading Manual #14 has great articles to learn all about reloading metallic cartridges: https://www.amazon.com/Speer-9515-Reloading-Manual-Number/dp/B001YB68SC/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1512934941&sr=8-2&keywords=speer+reloading+manual+15

 

The Lyman Shotshell Handbook should be required reading for anyone loading shotgun shells:  https://www.amazon.com/Lyman-Shotshell-Handbook-5Th-Edition/dp/B00162MK2M/ref=sr_1_1?s=sporting-goods&ie=UTF8&qid=1512935165&sr=1-1&keywords=lyman+shotshell+hand

Just BP recipes. I've been loading smokeless for 5 different calibers. For years now.

[Springfield Slim SASS #24733]

The BP recipe is, put in enough powder so that the bullet slightly compresses the powder. Done.  I load all my BP and smokeless ammo on my Dillon 550's, with the Dillon powder measures, and RCBS Cowboy dies. Been working fine for 10 years now for BP and 22 for smokeless.

[John Henry Quick]

20 minutes ago, Ricochet Rojo said:

Just BP recipes. I've been loading smokeless for 5 different calibers. For years now.

 

That's quite easy!  As Springfield Slim says, just fill the case until the bullet will compress the powder and you're done.  I put 30 grains in my .44-40 cases and the 200 grain Big Lube Mav bullet will compress it about 1/8".  BTW, Springfield Slims sells those bullets - Big Lube bullets have a HUGE grease groove and they are the only one's I've found to still carry lube out to the end of my rifle.  They're a bit more expense than most, but worth every penny.

 

 

[Ricochet Rojo]

1 hour ago, John Henry Quick said:

1 hour ago, John Henry Quick said:

 

That's quite easy!  As Springfield Slim says, just fill the case until the bullet will compress the powder and you're done.  I put 30 grains in my .44-40 cases and the 200 grain Big Lube Mav bullet will compress it about 1/8".  BTW, Springfield Slims sells those bullets - Big Lube bullets have a HUGE grease groove and they are the only one's I've found to still carry lube out to the end of my rifle.  They're a bit more expense than most, but worth every penny.

 

 

Really? It's that easy? I always assumed that there would be a separate set of recipes for BP! As soon as I get better (been laid up with pnuemonia) I am gonna get started with some 44-40's that are waiting for me to reload! Thanks for the info. I can't believe that I've waited so long! Thanks again!

 

[John Henry Quick]

44 minutes ago, Ricochet Rojo said:

Really? It's that easy? I always assumed that there would be a separate set of recipes for BP! As soon as I get better (been laid up with pnuemonia) I am gonna get started with some 44-40's that are waiting for me to reload! Thanks for the info. I can't believe that I've waited so long! Thanks again!

 

 

Yup, it really is that easy. 

 

There are some caveats - first and foremost, you must use bullets lubed with BP compatible lube.  I've tried some of those that the maker promised were "good for BP use also" and I was scrubbing lead out for hours.  Also, many work fine in revolvers, but just don't carry enough lube to last through a rifle barrel.  Big Lubes, whether you get them from Springfield Slim or someone else, ALWAYS carry enough lube. 

 

The other caveat is that you need to slug your barrel and use the appropriate size bullet.  Most Uberti rifles like a .429 bullet and a .427 will lead horribly because of gas cutting.  Marlins I don't know about.  I started with .427's not knowing any better and found myself scrubbing lead.  I slugged my barrel and found that .429 is a better fit and I've not scrubbed lead ever since.  Don't assume anything - slug your bore.

 

Once you find the right bullet, you're home free.

 

[Ricochet Rojo]

With 44-40, I've been using 200gr rnfp. With a large lube ring and nice crimp groove. These are hard lead, with 1% tin. I have a Mastercast factory just 15 minutes from my home. They have performed perfectly with my smokeless loads. Very little leading ( if any at all). I am sure that there are more finer points for me to learn with BP, but it looks like I can get started easily.

[Ricochet Rojo]

1 minute ago, John Henry Quick said:

 

 

Yup, it really is that easy. 

 

There are some caveats - first and foremost, you must use bullets lubed with BP compatible lube.  I've tried some of those that the maker promised were "good for BP use also" and I was scrubbing lead out for hours.  Also, many work fine in revolvers, but just don't carry enough lube to last through a rifle barrel.  Big Lubes, whether you get them from Springfield Slim or someone else, ALWAYS carry enough lube. 

 

The other caveat is that you need to slug your barrel and use the appropriate size bullet.  Most Uberti rifles like a .429 bullet and a .427 will lead horribly because of gas cutting.  Marlins I don't know about.  I started with .427's not knowing any better and found myself scrubbing lead.  I slugged my barrel and found that .429 is a better fit and I've not scrubbed lead ever since.  Don't assume anything - slug your bore.

 

Once you find the right bullet, you're home free.

 

Both my rifle and revolver slug out at .429. the bullets that I've gotten from Mastercast, are .429. I won't pretend to know if the lube is sufficient with these bullets for my rifle. I guess that I will need to shoot them and find out! Thanx so much for your info! I can't wait to get better, and get started!