Question about Black Powder for Shotguns

[Nahiossi]

G'day Folks!

 

I have been participating at my local monthly matches for a little whiles now and been having a great time of it. I am getting the hang of the transitions and learning all the different types of sweeps. However, one of my goals was to move into the Frontiersman class. The first stop will be in Frontier Cartridge until I can get my hands on some C&P revolvers.

 

Which brings me to my question. I have been doing a lot of reading on reloading with black powder but am a little confused on the recommended type of black powder to use for my shotshells. Some folks say that you should use FFg whilst others say that FFFg will suffice. Then others say that FFFg is going to cause dangerous pressure levels and should not be used!  I prefer to keep all my appendages where they are and am loath to use a "try and see" approach; hence my dilemma! 

 

If it helps to answer, my expected recipe would be once fired Winchester AA hulls, with a square load of powder and #7 shot with a plastic wad. These will be processed in a MEC 8567 Grabber with a universal charge bar and a non-plastic powder bottle (but if I cant find something to fit, I will dip the powder manually).

 

Thanks in anticipation! 

 

 

[Prairie Dawg, SASS #50329]

Good Morning:

Fg, FFg, FFFg all work well

Fg gives the best show for your posse-mates

FFFg is the cleanest and has the most oomph, so you can get by with less powder

You will have no pressure issues, if your shotgun is in good condition.

If you are using an antique or one with badly pitted barrels, then you might have concerns.

I personally do not shoot shotguns with Damascus or twist barrels, although some folks do.

In a modern steel-barreled shotgun -- no worries.

Supposedly, the older Winchester cylindrical powder bottles screw into the MEC.

Personally. I use Lee dippers

I load mine on a MEC Grabber

Here's a nice Webpage on loading BP shotshells:  http://www.tbullock.com/bpsg.html

--Dawg

[Warden Callaway]

One problem you will face is getting your "stack height" to come out right with plastic wads and the volume of black powder.  Most wads are too tall.   I've found Claybuster 1138 short red wad works well.

 

https://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/product/productId/2320

 

I use Grafs Reenactor sometimes but I've evolved into using Alliant BlackMZ. The Reenactor powder is very crude and coarse powder.  BlackMZ is noticeably more powerful than real black so I cut the charge back about 25%.

[Amarillo Rattler]

AA hulls can/will burn on the outside due to low pressure and high temps. One shot and throw away.

 

Fiocchi hulls are straight wall and thin, I get a minimum of 3 reloads with trimming after first 2 reloads. $35/1000 shipped on Gunbroker.

 

BP will burn most plastic wads which leaves a deposit of plastic on barrel walls. Spray a home made mix of PAM in the barrels, both ends, let it sit for 15 minutes and push a tight wad down the barrel. A long black snake crawls out the muzzle. PAM is equal part of hydrogen peroxide, 91% rubbing alcohol, and Murphy's furniture oil. Store in UV proof container. Spray a BP solvent (better than water) down the barrels to remove all BP residue with tight patches. Bore Butter in the bores as a preservative. Spray Windex with vinegar on paper towel and wipe the BP residue from muzzle, breach and receiver. Dry with paper towel. Thin coat of Eezox on outside surfaces as lube/preservative.

 

Welcome to the Holy Black!

Amarillo Rattler

 

[J-BAR #18287]

PM sent.

[Warden Callaway]

Ahaaa,  the snake thing.  

 

Back when I started loading black powder shells, I didn't use real black powder. I found about 6 cans of Pyrodex with some to full amounts in them. I used this up playing with "black" powder loads in shotguns.  I used fiber wads.  I got snakes. 

 

After I used up the Pyrodex,  I went to Grafs Reenactor.  By that time I started using plastic wads. I rarely got any evidence of snakes. Then I've evolved to using BlackMZ with plastic wads and don't remember when the last time I saw the snake.

 

But I do a two things that may keep the snakes away,  I run a damp bore snake through the bores between each stage.  Not so much to clean the bores as the chambers.  Also, when I clean up the gun after a match, I run a patch through the bores loaded with Thompson's Bore Butter. 

 

In any case,  snakes are not so frightening.  Pour some hot water through the bores and push a 10 gauge brass bristle brush through and the snake will slide right out.

[Sedalia Dave]

I put a cork in the muzzle end of the barrel, Stand them on end and fill with hot water. Let them soak while you are cleaning the rest of your guns. Then pour the water out and push a 12 gauge jag with a patch through and they come right out.

 

Oddly enough, sometimes I have them in the barrels and sometimes they are barely noticeable.

[John Henry Quick]

I use the Hornady Lock-N-Load powder measure and 70 grains is just a hair over 2-1/2 drams, making it a nice soft load that reliably knocks the targets over.  Top that with a 1/8" hard card and a 1/2" waxed fiber wad and there will be no snakes and no need to use hot water which causes flash rust.  The fiber wad does not have to be waxed - wax really does nothing for shooting, but unwaxed wads can be messy loading and leave fiber dust all over your machine and loading table.  In order to stay within the rules, I'll leave the rest of the load to your imagination, thought it won't be hard to figure out how much shot to use in order to fill the hull. 

 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Quote

Oddly enough, sometimes I have them in the barrels and sometimes they are barely noticeable.

 

Hot dry weather makes BP fouling harder.  Moist cool air keeps fouling softer.   Plastic from the (outside walls of) wads deposits on hot barrel walls with the BP fouling as you shoot BP shotgun loads.   Soft fouling and plastic mix can pretty easily be be cleaned out with the next shot.  Hard fouling and plastic just build up.

 

So, in damp weather, or if you "hose down" the fouling after each stage, plastic deposits don't build up.  In 100 degree desert conditions, it fills barrels to where they look like sewer pipes after a few stages.   It cleans out easy, though, so most folks only get real concerned when fouling starts to affect the shucking of fired shells.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Driftwood Johnson, SASS #38283]

8 hours ago, Nahiossi said:

Some folks say that you should use FFg whilst others say that FFFg will suffice. Then others say that FFFg is going to cause dangerous pressure levels and should not be used! 

 

Who makes this stuff up? FFFg won't hurt anything if the gun is in good condition. If it ain't in good condition it shouldn't be fired anyway.

 

The old rule of thumb used to be FFFg for anything under 45 Cal, FFg for anything over 45 cal. Either one for 45 cal.

 

I used to load my 45s and 44s with FFFg and my shotgun with FFg until I got tired of stocking two different granulation. Now I load everything with FFg. 45-70, 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, 44 Russian, 38-40 and 12 gauge. If I was shooting 38 Special with Black Powder I would use FFg in it too.

 

Generally speaking, all else being equal, you will get between 60 fps - 100 fps more using FFFg instead of FFg.

 

I don't need the extra velocity, it's so much easier to just stock one granulation.

 

 

[Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326]

I  also go with Goex FF just to keep life simple.  Ended up with 1 1/8 shot by volume and 1 oz BP by volume.  On my Mec I drilled out a bushing to get the powder close to what I wanted.  Look up using a roll crimp on your shells.  Makes the whole issue of wad height a moot point.  Roll crimp from dumpster diving and throw away after using once.  Even the cheap sg shells work when you melt and beef up the end of the shell.

[John Henry Quick]

42 minutes ago, Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326 said:

I  also go with Goex FF just to keep life simple.  Ended up with 1 1/8 shot by volume and 1 oz BP by volume.  On my Mec I drilled out a bushing to get the powder close to what I wanted.  Look up using a roll crimp on your shells.  Makes the whole issue of wad height a moot point.  Roll crimp from dumpster diving and throw away after using once.  Even the cheap sg shells work when you melt and beef up the end of the shell.

 

One ounce of BP (or anything for that matter) would be 437.5 grains.  I'm assuming that was a typo because 437 grains of BP would fill or even more likely overflow the hull...

[Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326]

by vol turns out a lot less than 437.5

Not able to post loads on the wire, but a lot of folks use square loads with BP shotgun loads.  By vol or one graduation lower on the powder using an adjustable shot measure such as this one...

  http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Adjustable-Shot-Dipper/productinfo/ASD/

 

[Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326]

JHQ going back to your post, it looks like we are using almost the same amount of BP. 

[Warden Callaway]

 

Here is how I make roll crimp black powder loads.

 

"Square load" is by volume, not my weight.  Simply use the same scoop for powder and shot. 

 

I am now using 1 oz shot and less by volume of BlackMZ. 

 

 

Mike Belaivue has three good videos on loading black powder shotgun shells without a loader. This is the first of three.

 

[John Boy]

re: Plastic wad 'snot' in barrels shooting black powder.  Is very easy ans simple to clean the bores to a mirror finish:

* Rubber corks in muzzles

* Pour Hot soapy water (Dawn detergent) down the barrels and let sit for ~ 5 minutes

* Drain the barrels

*  Run a Stainless Steel tornado brush down the bores

* Next, put a folded wad of paper toweling pushed down the bores in front of the tornado brush.  Usually takes 2 passes

* Mirror finish bores

* Oil ... Done

[John Henry Quick]

3 hours ago, Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326 said:

by vol turns out a lot less than 437.5

Not able to post loads on the wire, but a lot of folks use square loads with BP shotgun loads.  By vol or one graduation lower on the powder using an adjustable shot measure such as this one...

  http://www.ballisticproducts.com/Adjustable-Shot-Dipper/productinfo/ASD/

 

 

OK, you're saying the same volume as 1 ounce of shot.  That's not the same as saying "X amount of BP by volume" because that generally refers to measuring with a powder measure or a scoop instead of a scale and the 20 grains mark is only approximate and accuracy fluctuates depending on how fine of powder you're measuring.  At least that's how I was taught.  In artillery, we measure powder using a level 1/4 cup as 2 ounces by volume.  I use 2 ounces in my swivel gun, 6 ounces in my three-pounder and 10 ounces in the six-pounder at Fort Frederick. 

 

2 hours ago, Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326 said:

JHQ going back to your post, it looks like we are using almost the same amount of BP. 

 

I used to use a more or less square load based around only 50 grains of powder and two fiber wads to take up the space, but I upped it to 70 grains and only one wad and it seems to have a lot greater effect on the knock-downs while still being comfortable to shoot.  I'm always amused because smokeless shooters jokingly ask if I'm shooting a cannon and they're amazed when I tell them that a 2-1/2 dram load is pretty much bottom of the scale for 12 gauge. 

[Nahiossi]

Thank you all for your words of wisdom! Good to know that using FFFg is not going to be an issue. Also picked up some handy tips about black powder cleaning

[Sgt. Hochbauer, SASS #64409]

I am of the same mindset as DJ just use one granulation FF and done. As for my SG loads have been using a square load 1oz of 7.5 or #8 shot. I like to use fiber wads and a nitro card. Powder then nitro card fiber wad and shot. The one really nice thing about using the fiber wads is the height is easily adjusted to make a good crimp. But if feeling a bit lazy I use the red plastic wads. Those snakes don't bother me.

 

Hochbauer

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

Howdy Nahiossi, alot of use a little less powder than a square load, and the Winn Pink wad works good for a 7/8oz load, and of course the Red for a booming 1 1/8oz. Ballistic Products has a real good selection of short shell wads, it's all about column height. Check out post #25 of this thread for my favorites as well as a couple of notes about the new two piece AA hulls. Good Luck  http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,58045.msg696334.html#msg696334

[Sergeant Smokepole #29248L]

I have been loading everything with FFFg for close to 25 years now. No problems. I load a full 3 Dram load with 1 1/8 ounce of shot over fiber wads. BTW, a Dram is 27.5 grains.....

[Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326]

1 hour ago, Sergeant Smokepole #29248L said:

I have been loading everything with FFFg for close to 25 years now. No problems. I load a full 3 Dram load with 1 1/8 ounce of shot over fiber wads. BTW, a Dram is 27.5 grains.....

 

Sound about right for what I use in my light 10g BP loads   :-)

 

[Edward R S Canby, SASS#59971]

I shoot in the desert Southwest and get a severe buildup of plastic and BP residue when I shoot real BP or any of the subs.  I just spray the barrel interiors with generic Window cleaner, wait ten minutes and then pound a wadded up paper towel (half sheet) down the barrel with my squib rod.  My wife's SQB with chrome lined barrels comes clean with one pass.  My Stoegers often take two passes and even some brushing with a 12-guage bore brush.  It's an easy process that we have performed many times on a pickup truck tailgate at a range.  (Some RV parks frown upon gun cleaning on their premises.  What they don't see they don't care about.)  We always oil after cleaning since this keeps the plastic from sticking tightly.  It doesn't seem to matter what oil we use.  I've used Ballistol, Remoil and spray cooking oil.  They all work well.

[Doc McCoy, SASS #8381]

I use Fg and the cheapest brand Powder Inc sells; Diamondback, Skirmish, whatever.  Works fine and puts on a great muzzle blast in low light overcast days.  I prefer the pink 1100 Claybuster wads with just under an ounce of shot.  I use an adjustable powder bar on my MEC Grabber press so I can make it all come out to the right height in the STS hull.  AA hulls work the same.  Claybuster gray wad is a tich shorter so that's good if I want a tich more powder.

 

I too plug the muzzle and fill the barrels with water and Simple Green while cleaning the other three guns, then it's just a single swipe with a paper towel ball to get 95% of the snake out.  

[Warden Callaway]

14 minutes ago, Doc McCoy, SASS #8381 said:

I use Fg and the cheapest brand Powder Inc sells; Diamondback, Skirmish, whatever.  Works fine and puts on a great muzzle blast in low light overcast days.  I prefer the pink 1100 Claybuster wads with just under an ounce of shot.  I use an adjustable powder bar on my MEC Grabber press so I can make it all come out to the right height in the STS hull.  AA hulls work the same.  Claybuster gray wad is a tich shorter so that's good if I want a tich more powder.

 

I too plug the muzzle and fill the barrels with water and Simple Green while cleaning the other three guns, then it's just a single swipe with a paper towel ball to get 95% of the snake out.  

 

When you use the Claybuster 1100 was,  do you cut the compression folds out of it or collapse them when loading? 

 

Looks like it would be way too tall to get your stack height right given the volume of black powder needed.

 

I use the Claybuster 0178 gray wad for smokeless loads.

[Guest Cactus Cris SASS#2790]

A voice from the past  LOL  I cleaned the bore's of the "snake" at the range after the match.  When done for the day, I sprayed them with Windex, set aside, when range was clear , took 2 smokeyless shells and fired them down range at the berm.  99% of all residue went downrange.  Cleaned the rest when I got home.  Never had a problem with the "snake" !

  I roll crimp'd some, plastic wads some, and used Fed paper hulls for both.  Can't use fiber wads shooting sporting clays due to fire hazard in Az.  Found that STS shucked out the best of all hulls.  Heavier side walls were the best.  Even used some Rio dark blue hulls (roll crimped).  I did this for 25 yrs and never had a problem.

[Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326]

1 hour ago, Warden Callaway said:

 

When you use the Claybuster 1100 was,  do you cut the compression folds out of it or collapse them when loading?

 

Looks like it would be way too tall to get your stack height right given the volume of black powder needed.

 

I use the Claybuster 0178 gray wad for smokeless loads.

Not sure about that wad . but the one wad I had left over from my smokless days I would cut the cushion part in half and then rotate the wad 90 degrees and insert into the shell.  Still gave some cushion and the best of gas seal and shot cup.

[Doc McCoy, SASS #8381]

I picked the CB 1100-12 (AKA CLA WAA12F1) because it fit without any modification.  It also depends on your powder charge.  I do not use any other wad, like I used to put a card wad between the plastic wad and the powder.  I adjust the powder and shot charge so they all fit together correctly for the crimp to form properly.  That's the beauty of the adjustable charge bar.

[Three Foot Johnson]

Odd lots or whatever's available is what goes in my shotshells; 1Fg, 2Fg, or 3Fg. I used Skirmish #1 for a long time, even in .44-40 and .45 Colt, because it was cheap. Currently, it's several cases of 3Fg Goex Pinnacle I found a few years ago, because when it was discontinued, it was cheaper than anything else.

[Rooster Ron Wayne]

On 12/9/2017 at 3:57 PM, John Boy said:

re: Plastic wad 'snot' in barrels shooting black powder.  Is very easy ans simple to clean the bores to a mirror finish:

* Rubber corks in muzzles

* Pour Hot soapy water (Dawn detergent) down the barrels and let sit for ~ 5 minutes

* Drain the barrels

*  Run a Stainless Steel tornado brush down the bores

* Next, put a folded wad of paper toweling pushed down the bores in front of the tornado brush.  Usually takes 2 passes

* Mirror finish bores

* Oil ... Done

Sound like a lot of work Not needed 

I run a squirt of ballastol down the barrels and push a sheet of paper towel down the barrel with a shotgun rod.

Done !

[Nahiossi]

With the rush of Xmas over and getting my Lee powder measures shipped to me, I was able to get some time in the shed this weekend and finally turn all your good advice into something tangible - my very first box of BP shells.

 

My process was to deprime and reprime on the Lee Load All 2 and then pop the shells in my home made loading block. I then used my Lee dipper to measure a charge of black powder and drop into the case via a metal funnel. Once I had the cases charged, it was back to the press for wad insertion, shot dispensing and crimping. 

 

 

A close up of the finished product 

 

 

All in all, quite happy with the finished product. The crimp is nice and tight and the internal dimensions of powder, wad and shot worked out perfectly. Now to test them at our next match! 

[watab kid]

i like it , good luck , report back , im not yet shootin black but im thinkin on startin it 

[Trooper Ozzy]

Nahiossi, What wad are you using

[John Henry Quick]

6 hours ago, watab kid said:

i like it , good luck , report back , im not yet shootin black but im thinkin on startin it 

 

Jump on in - the water's just fine! 

[Jefro, SASS#69420]

On 12/11/2017 at 10:16 AM, Warden Callaway said:

 

When you use the Claybuster 1100 was,  do you cut the compression folds out of it or collapse them when loading? 

 

Looks like it would be way too tall to get your stack height right given the volume of black powder needed.

 

I use the Claybuster 0178 gray wad for smokeless loads.

Howdy Warden, nope, no need to cut anything. The CB-1100 is the same as the WinAA12SSL Pink wad, great for a reduced 7/8 load, still plenty of smoke and no fear of  a knockdown.  Noz and several other famous BP shooters use this wad. However, with the new WinAA two piece hull I prefer to use STS hull, and the BPI Helix #21 wad is even better. Check out post # 25 of this thread for my favorite recipes....Good Luck

  http://www.cascity.com/forumhall/index.php/topic,58045.msg696334.html#msg696334