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Not paying traffic tickets...right to buy firearms taken away?


Gunner Gatlin, SASS 10274L

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I didn't say firearms will be taken away, but it did say you couldn't buy a new one. Not the same thing.

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1 hour ago, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said:

A good citizen pays their tickets.

 

:rolleyes:... but not paying a traffic ticket shouldn't mean your right to purchase a firearm should be impeded. In the article there were some interesting scenarios if you read it.

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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1 hour ago, Gunner Gatlin, SASS # 10274 said:

 

:rolleyes:... but not paying a traffic ticket shouldn't mean your right to purchase a firearm should be impeded. In the article there were some interesting scenarios if you read it.

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

Why not? If you can’t do simple thing like pay your tickets why would you want them to pass the instant check until they cleared  up their debts? I don’t want scoff law violators able to ruin things for us law abiding citizens. If you got money to buy a new or used gun you got money to pay your fines.

Should we also allow folks who don’t pay for a SASS membership to shoot at State and above level matches? Should we allow folks to shoot if they don’t pay the match fee? 

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Maybe they should have revoked HIS RIGHT to buy a car too?

 

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No way.  Gun ownership is a right, driving is a privilege.  If you don't pay fines associated with the privilege of driving you should lose things associated with that privilege, not your constitutional rights.  How about if you don't pay your tickets you lose the right to criticize the government and you can't choose what church you go to?  If the 2nd amendment is to be targeted when you don't pay tickets why not the 1st amendment too?  How about no need for the police to have a warrant to search your house if you don't have your tickets paid?

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1 hour ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

No way.  Gun ownership is a right, driving is a privilege.  If you don't pay fines associated with the privilege of driving you should lose things associated with that privilege, not your constitutional rights.  How about if you don't pay your tickets you lose the right to criticize the government and you can't choose what church you go to?  If the 2nd amendment is to be targeted when you don't pay tickets why not the 1st amendment too?  How about no need for the police to have a warrant to search your house if you don't have your tickets paid?

That logic doesn’t follow.  They right of ownership is not being taken away, they can still own guns.

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1 hour ago, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said:

That logic doesn’t follow.  They right of ownership is not being taken away, they can still own guns.

It definitely does follow.  They are restricting your ability to exercise your right to own firearms, which includes the right to acquire firearms.  For example, if a person who doesn't currently own a firearm has an unpaid ticket under this system, they no longer have the right to own a firearm, because they can't legally acquire one.

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5 minutes ago, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said:

Sorry, I just can’t get worked up about scoff law persons not being able to pass a simple instant check. It’s quite simple responsible citizens pay their fines.

John I certainly respect your opinion, but this is a great example of the camel getting his nose under the tent.  For example, who gets to define 'responsible citizen'  Nancy Pelosi, or Orrin Hatch?  If not paying your tickets is cause for losing your right to purchase guns, how about being late on your taxes?  Overdue on a credit card payment?  Maybe you're not responsible if you draw unemployment?  Simple question, if you agree with restricting 2nd amendment rights due to outstanding tickets are you OK with restricting 1st amendment rights for the same reason, and if you're not OK with that why not?

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No, I just see it as more of the welfare state. No reprocussions for being irresponsible. If you have money to buy a gun you got money to pay your fines or at least a payment plan to get them paid off. I certainly understand the nose under the tent argument. 

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I hardly consider myself a “scofflaw” but I have two unpaid traffic tickets, one dating back to 1982!!!  

 

I was written a ticket for failure to purchase a wheel tax sticker for the county I live in . The sticker is required for vehicles registered in that county. The vehicle I was driving was registered in an adjacent county to the business I owned in that county, where it was also licensed and insured.

 

At the hearing, the judge disputed the registration saying that the address was on a street in his county and that I would have to prove otherwise.

 

I reminded the judge that the burden of proof rested with the prosecution and that until such time as he could meet that burden, I would NOT pay the fine.

 

The judge ordered me to pay the clerk and I walked out of the courtroom refusing to do so.

 

Thirty-five years later, I STILL have not paid that fine.

 

Capt. Burt is right!! It is an infringement on 2A just as it would be on any other Constitutional right on several levels. Failure to pay fines is NOT a felony and thus doesn’t constitute a forfeiture of any Constitutionaly protected rights!!

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9 hours ago, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said:

I was hoping this would not devolve into a thread about all the unfair tickets/citations folks got over the years.

I agree and I understand the arguments here, but lets stay on track here.

 

Charlie

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This Fix NICS bill is supported and promoted by the National Shooting Sports Federation (NSSF).  It has some support from NRA too.  It is about getting disqualified persons into the NICS database from states and other agencies that are not making the updates.  One of the shooters in the news lately was a prohibited person whom the military had not listed.

 

The piece on paying tickets is GOA's interpretation of the bill.  The bill mentions persons having an arrest warrant for traffic violations.  That requires a lot more than just not paying your tickets.  Usually that means you have been cited into court and did not show up in court.  This relates to question 11b on the 4473 form, the form you fill out to buy a gun.  It asks if you are under indictment for a felony or anything with a potential sentence over a year (felony by definition in many states).  If you are wanted on any felony level charge I do not want to sell you a gun.

 

Fix NICS does not (according to NSSF) add anything new.  It requires states and agencies who hold information that would disqualify a person from buying a gun to send that information to NICS.

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15 hours ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

No way.  Gun ownership is a right, driving is a privilege.  If you don't pay fines associated with the privilege of driving you should lose things associated with that privilege, not your constitutional rights.  How about if you don't pay your tickets you lose the right to criticize the government and you can't choose what church you go to?  If the 2nd amendment is to be targeted when you don't pay tickets why not the 1st amendment too?  How about no need for the police to have a warrant to search your house if you don't have your tickets paid?

 

100%

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

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Most states and PRK is one of them.

Unpaid park'n tickets will put a 'hold' on renewing your vehicle reg and can have your DL suspended.

Also, it can mean the car is towed and impounded until the fines are paid. 

With the lic plate scanners in use today by the PD's. Pretty hard not to get caught.

 

Respectfully,

OLG

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I think that Capt. Burt and others here are expressing here is the obvious double standard that even some staunch supporters of 2A are applying to it!!  Parts of 4377 are infringing on the constitutional rights of some law-abiding citizens!1 The question concerning indictment misapplies restriction!!  To be indicted is not a conviction!!  We STILL hold the standard of innocent until PROVEN guilty!!  Indictments are handed down on citizens all the time and many are then proven not guilty!!!!  

 

I have a friend who was charged with domestic violence by his drunken, drug addicted spouse!  In my state, just the charge of domestic violence results in suspension of the right to keep and bear along with a prohibition of the right to purchase a firearm!  It takes a lot of time, legal wrangling, and money that many don't have to get such a charge expunged or officially sealed.  He was NEVER indicted, tried, and certainly not convicted of the charge, yet he had to relinquish his guns, refrain from purchasing any new weapons, and surrender his carry permit!  Later the spouse was convicted of filing false police reports, illegal use of controlled substance, perjury, and reckless endangerment of a minor. Because my friend doesn't have the money to pursue the legal course of action required, HE'S DEPRIVED OF A CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT!!

 

Unpaid parking tickets or traffic tickets should have no bearing on constitutional rights, REGARDLESS of which right you choose to try to restrict.  This is nothing but fee grabbing and a backhanded attempt to infringe on a natural right through the back door by those who wish to, in the end, deprive ALL of us of this right.  Another approach to the slippery slope that they seek to force us down!!!:angry::angry:

 

If you choose not to sell a gun to someone that has outstanding traffic or parking tickets, that is , of course, your right!  I'll happily go somewhere else to spend my hard earned dollar, just like when I go to another business rather than spend time or money when the establishment puts up a "no guns" sign at their door!!! B)   

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18 hours ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

I think that Capt. Burt and others here are expressing here is the obvious double standard that even some staunch supporters of 2A are applying to it!!  Parts of 4377 are infringing on the constitutional rights of some law-abiding citizens!1 The question concerning indictment misapplies restriction!!  To be indicted is not a conviction!!  We STILL hold the standard of innocent until PROVEN guilty!!  Indictments are handed down on citizens all the time and many are then proven not guilty!!!!  

 

I have a friend who was charged with domestic violence by his drunken, drug addicted spouse!  In my state, just the charge of domestic violence results in suspension of the right to keep and bear along with a prohibition of the right to purchase a firearm!  It takes a lot of time, legal wrangling, and money that many don't have to get such a charge expunged or officially sealed.  He was NEVER indicted, tried, and certainly not convicted of the charge, yet he had to relinquish his guns, refrain from purchasing any new weapons, and surrender his carry permit!  Later the spouse was convicted of filing false police reports, illegal use of controlled substance, perjury, and reckless endangerment of a minor. Because my friend doesn't have the money to pursue the legal course of action required, HE'S DEPRIVED OF A CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHT!!

 

Unpaid parking tickets or traffic tickets should have no bearing on constitutional rights, REGARDLESS of which right you choose to try to restrict.  This is nothing but fee grabbing and a backhanded attempt to infringe on a natural right through the back door by those who wish to, in the end, deprive ALL of us of this right.  Another approach to the slippery slope that they seek to force us down!!!:angry::angry:

 

If you choose not to sell a gun to someone that has outstanding traffic or parking tickets, that is , of course, your right!  I'll happily go somewhere else to spend my hard earned dollar, just like when I go to another business rather than spend time or money when the establishment puts up a "no guns" sign at their door!!! B)   

 

Yup.

 

GG ~ :FlagAm:

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
On 12/5/2017 at 5:47 AM, Doc McCoy, SASS #8381 said:

This Fix NICS bill is supported and promoted by the National Shooting Sports Federation (NSSF).  It has some support from NRA too.  It is about getting disqualified persons into the NICS database from states and other agencies that are not making the updates.  One of the shooters in the news lately was a prohibited person whom the military had not listed.

 

The piece on paying tickets is GOA's interpretation of the bill.  The bill mentions persons having an arrest warrant for traffic violations.  That requires a lot more than just not paying your tickets.  Usually that means you have been cited into court and did not show up in court.  This relates to question 11b on the 4473 form, the form you fill out to buy a gun.  It asks if you are under indictment for a felony or anything with a potential sentence over a year (felony by definition in many states).  If you are wanted on any felony level charge I do not want to sell you a gun.

 

Fix NICS does not (according to NSSF) add anything new.  It requires states and agencies who hold information that would disqualify a person from buying a gun to send that information to NICS.

POTUS has ruled the Feds can’t compel states to follow their directions.  The Fix NICS law must allocate Federal funds to entice states to submit the records.  Also, they can’t withhold funds not related to the activity or previously allocated funds. The portion of the ACA that withheld existing Medicaid funds from states that didn’t expand eligibility was the ruled unconstitutional by POTUS.  The last time NICS was fixed had funds to get the database to include more complete list of prohibited persons.  How well did that work out?  The Feds can’t even get their employees to submit records (Air Force JAG corps).  Ferderal, State & Local government can’t seem to discipline employees that fail to perform competently.  IE the VA scandle.

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3 hours ago, J.D. Daily said:

POTUS has ruled the Feds can’t compel states to follow their directions.  The Fix NICS law must allocate Federal funds to entice states to submit the records.  Also, they can’t withhold funds not related to the activity or previously allocated funds. The portion of the ACA that withheld existing Medicaid funds from states that didn’t expand eligibility was the ruled unconstitutional by POTUS.  The last time NICS was fixed had funds to get the database to include more complete list of prohibited persons.  How well did that work out?  The Feds can’t even get their employees to submit records (Air Force JAG corps).  Ferderal, State & Local government can’t seem to discipline employees that fail to perform competently.  IE the VA scandle.

I think you mean SCOTUS rather than POTUS.  It would be more logical, but there I go thinking there is any logic in Washington.

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On 12/16/2017 at 3:26 AM, Doc McCoy, SASS #8381 said:

I think you mean SCOTUS rather than POTUS.  It would be more logical, but there I go thinking there is any logic in Washington.

You are correct I meant SCOTUS.  This was the 1st time I ever used my iPhone to create a posting & it was bed time when your mental acuity is at a low point.

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Rights and Privileges are two different things .

 

I have the right to were my shoes in our  house .

My Wife said I have the Privilege to come in the house , As long as I take off  my shoes . lol 

Rooster 

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