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Smokeless .45-70 Loads


Lead Friend, SASS #53635

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First let me say that I am aware that load data cannot be posted on The Wire. Beginning with the New Year I will embark on the journey of reloading .45-70 for use in my Marlin 1895. I intend to replicate some typical cowboy loads running at around 1400FPS for shooting steel plates out to 400 yards in hundred yard increments. I have both 300gr and 405gr RNFP bullets in inventory as well as Trail Boss and Red Dot. I have consulted the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook, the Lyman 49th Reloading Handbook, Lee Modern Reloading 2nd Edition and Speer #13. I see many powders listed that I am not familiar with and before I throw a dart and blindly pick one I thought I would ask here for advice. If I can use the powder that I have that would be ideal but I am perfectly open to buying a more suitable powder, I just don't know where to start. Hence, this post.

 

If any of you fellows (ladies too, of course) would be kind enough to email me with pet loads and advice in general for this undertaking I would be grateful. I already load .45 Colt and .357 on a Dillon XL650 so I am not without reloading experience. I'll be loading .45-70 on a separate dedicated press.

 

Please PM me with any load data recommendations and of course discuss here anything else that is appropriate for discussion on The Wire.

 

I am grateful in advance for your assistance in this matter.

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Hey there Lead Friend  --  You might take a gander at  http://gmdr.com/  Look to the top of the page and select the Oregon Trail data.  Scroll the left hand edge and select your bullet weight.  You're now off to the races.  I'm a big fan of Unique and IMR4198 in the 45-70 cartridge.  Hope this helps.  Best regards.  Buttes

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Let me say .

Unique is your friend.

Unique is the smokeless version of Black Powder .

You can load anything with Unique.

 

PS. Unique is not the best at anything.

But will work OK at Everything.

 

Just Sayin 

Rooster 

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4 hours ago, BLACKFOOT SASS #11947 said:

I like TrailBoss with 405gr LFP bullets.  I use the maximum recommended powder load, it does not get the velocity that you mention but it works well in my 1895 Marlin.

 

Blackfoot

 

Same here for the Trailboss load.   Not only does it have decent accuracy, but is not a shoulder thumper when fired from a 20" barreled Winchester 86, or a Trapdoor carbine.   Yes, the load is Trapdoor safe.

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6 hours ago, Bear Buttes McNab said:

Hey there Lead Friend  --  You might take a gander at  http://gmdr.com/  Look to the top of the page and select the Oregon Trail data.  Scroll the left hand edge and select your bullet weight.  You're now off to the races.  I'm a big fan of Unique and IMR4198 in the 45-70 cartridge.  Hope this helps.  Best regards.  Buttes

 

Second the 4198 if you want loads for hunting.   That case will hold more than what my shoulder likes...

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Quote

If any of you fellows (ladies too, of course) would be kind enough to email me with pet loads and advice in general for this undertaking I would be grateful.

Lead, in the SASS FAQ is a whole listing of 'pet loads' for multiple loading data tables ...

If you open up the link and go to the 45-70 caliber section, there are many recipes for the bullet weights your interested in

Loads for the .45/70 Rifle

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Gentlemen, Lead Friend wants a velocity in the 1400 fps range.  So save your breath talking about Trail Boss because it cannot obtain a velocity of 1400 fps

And why Lead wants 1400 fps reloads is beyond me.  I shoot BPCR reloads with 500 + gr bullets from 200 to 500 meters and out to 1000yds ... with accuracy that are in the 1100 to 1200 fps.  Only time the extra velocity is needed is past 1000 yards to decrease the trajectory

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I load 45/70 for a Sharps, 1886 and a Double Rifle.

 

I use ADI 2207, similar to your 4198 or Reloader 7 I believe. http://www.adi-powders.com.au/handloaders/equivalents.asp

 

I load fast 300gr rounds for the 1886 (18-1900 FPS), slowish (1400fps) 405 loads for the Sharps and I have found the DR likes a similar slowish 405 round as the Sharps (the PPU 405 gr rounds work well in it to).

 

I have used TB as well and they make easy to shoot plinking (never thought I would use that word talking about 45/70?) rounds that while slow are easy on the shoulder and still accurate. I have gone over the table maximums but always around the 70% capacity load development advice that comes with TB.

 

The actual load data I use isnt going to transfer unless you are actually using ADI powder so I wont bother confusing you.

 

 

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Thanks to all for your responses so far. Having tallied all the votes it's a three way tie between Unique, Trail Boss and 4198. As for why I want to run around 1400fps let's just say that when I drive a fast car I like to step on the gas. I can always dial it back but a fella has to start somewhere. And I've been shooting commercial loads in that rifle for a number of years that run about that speed so my shoulder is used to it. I will dig into those links as well before I buy any powder but it sounds like Trail Boss might be out of the running based on the descriptions above.

 

Thanks  again, and all insight is appreciated.

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8 hours ago, Cusz M. Dutch SASS Life 55326 said:

 

Second the 4198 if you want loads for hunting.   That case will hold more than what my shoulder likes...

This is why I use Trailboss.   My original .45-70 load, Trapdoor safe, was with 4198.   While it was fine in the very heavy 1884 Trapdoor *rifle* it was a very painful recoil producer in my aforementioned lighter guns.

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5744, 4198, 3031, Reloader 7, Varget, 4895, 4759.

 

To a lesser extent (lower velocity) Unique, Red Dot, 2400

"The Load" or "The Universal Load" of Unique is easy to find online, as is "The Harris Load" for Red Dot.

 

Personally, I don't like Trail Boss for these large cartridges. It feels light, and it is, but it's a fast burning powder and generates a fairly high pressure with a short, fast pressure spike. I don't know the physics of it, but you get a significantly higher pressure spike, and lower velocity, go figure. There are published loads for it though, so it must be safe enough.

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On 12/2/2017 at 10:12 AM, John Boy said:

Gentlemen, Lead Friend wants a velocity in the 1400 fps range.  So save your breath talking about Trail Boss because it cannot obtain a velocity of 1400 fps

And why Lead wants 1400 fps reloads is beyond me.  I shoot BPCR reloads with 500 + gr bullets from 200 to 500 meters and out to 1000yds ... with accuracy that are in the 1100 to 1200 fps.  Only time the extra velocity is needed is past 1000 yards to decrease the trajectory

What John Boy said!

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On 12/2/2017 at 4:04 PM, Lead Friend, SASS #53635 said:

Thanks to all for your responses so far. Having tallied all the votes it's a three way tie between Unique, Trail Boss and 4198. As for why I want to run around 1400fps let's just say that when I drive a fast car I like to step on the gas. I can always dial it back but a fella has to start somewhere. And I've been shooting commercial loads in that rifle for a number of years that run about that speed so my shoulder is used to it. I will dig into those links as well before I buy any powder but it sounds like Trail Boss might be out of the running based on the descriptions above.

 

Thanks  again, and all insight is appreciated.

It not clear if you have shot the rifle  with 405 at 1400 fps.  That Marlin is a light rifle and when throwing heavy bullets with speed, the recoil will get your attention real fast.  I've got one, and loader up and did not care for the recoil at all.  Heavy fast bullets might be fine for hunting where you carry the rifle a lot and only shoot it a few times.  But, that's not what your talking about here.  From what you said, it sounds like you want a target load for your Marlin.  Heavy speedy bullets with lots of recoil are not a target shooters friend.  A miss is miss,  even with the bullet going 1400 fps, its still a miss.

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19 hours ago, Lead Friend, SASS #53635 said:

I've also got a Trapdoor Springfield, Crusty. I'll be shooting BP in that once I get the 1895 figured out. 

 

Thanks.

Well when you get the Trapdoor rifling figured out let me know.  Mine comes out to .463 but it still shoots good.

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My trapdoor carbine likes the 405 bullet. Full case BP or sub. 

 

I tried lighter bullets, I couldnt   have hit a buffalo unless one swallowed me! They were all over the place. With 405s much more accurate 

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Clyde Henry, thank you for your concern that has been shared by others as well. It is quite clearly stated in my post that you quoted that I have experience shooting loads at that speed. 1400fps is a familiar baseline from which I will no doubt dial back along this reloading journey however because learning is a process and not an event I just figured that would be a good starting point. During the course of this thread I’ve done the research that was suggested to me and Mister Gritz even gave me a load that I think I’ll start with, somewhat cooler than what I originally thought but, while headstrong, I am not immune to the experience of others. My real goal is to be able to reliably hit a gong at 400 yards. I have no end of fun doing that and I intend to enjoy the process of figuring it out, even if it hurts.

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Oh fearless one. If you are willing to play outside the box you can get a Lyman 420g FPGC up to around 1800 out of that Marlin. I have had my guide gun up there and it is very unplesent. Should ring the heck out of a gong!

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HI Lead Friend 

 

Are you shooting a hand made gas checked bullet?  If not do so. 405's work good with 5744. 300gr.GC  works good with Trail Boss.  Try .458 and .459 bullets.

There is no EZ answer try,  try and keep trying. 

Make sure you have the very best sight on the market.

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I've used H4198, which is amenable to lighter loads with 385-405 gr bullets.   MV in the 1150 to 1310 ft/sec, depending on the charge weight and the barrel length.  I have run pressure tests on these using Remington JFSP factory loads as a control.  This appears identical to certain handloads with 3031.  Obviously, I can't be responsible for the use of such information in guns other than my own (and maybe not then in original antiques).  Part of the recoil problem can also be due to the shape of the buttplate.  Crescent buttplates can hurt if not held correctly.  Shotgun are better.  Also remember that the Army issued .45-55-405 loads for the Trapdoor carbines instead of the full .45-70-405 and later .45-70-500, due to complaints from the small stature cavalry troopers.  OTOH, some cavalry company commanders requested the use of rifle loads for their carbine-equipped troops, to get more range!

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4895 is my go to,, use it in 308 too....  

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I shoot a 300 gr cast bullet, 405 grain cast gas check bullet and 405 gr Remington Soft point Flat Nose Jacketed Bullets. 

 

Trail Boss for CAS in the 300 grainer it provides good volume in the large 45-70 case and is a decent all around powder but I agree with John Boy if you are looking for higher velocities ,  IMR 4895 or IMR 3031 for hunting and target with higher velocities.  Advantage of the two IMRs is that they can be used for a fairly wide variety of calibers so if you shoot and re-load for calibers like .270 or 30-06 you can use the same powder.

 

The 405 grainers at higher velocities will give me a pretty good thumping with a short barreled rifle even with a declerator pad on it.  Not really pleasant to shoot but an effective hunting and big critter round at relatively close range.  Trailboss with 300 grainers  I can pretty much shoot all day long. 

 

Interestingly if you study ballistics tables and penetration, in a lot of cases the 300 grainer will out-perform the 405. 

 

Tinpan McGurk

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Sent you PM. For all you others reading this, check out .... this is information only ... check out Buffalo Rifle. Imported by ShootersWorldsc.com Who do the Clean Shot and others. It’s new to the market and is what I now use in my Browning 1885 High Wall.  Used Trail Boss and 5744 as well. 

 

Scarlett

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1 hour ago, Ricochet Rojo said:

Well Lead Friend, I highly recommend Reloader # 10. Very good powder.

 

 

I won't publish my loadings here, but I highly recommend that you consult the Speer manual#14, for your starting loads with reloader10x. They cover most bullet weights quite well, also the type of gun being used in 45-70. Of course, it is best to start low, and work your way up. But I am sure that you know that already. Give it a try!

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Boy, thanks to all for your input. I picked up some Unique because Cabelas had it in stock and on sale. I intend to give IMR4198 a try next and I may just work my way down the list of recommended powders. I’ve learned a lot and I’m going to print this thread and keep it with my reloading books. Playing with gunpowder and lead sure is fun!

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See You at Briggsdale  in Setp.  Oh buy the way I have a new rifle and have done what you are trying to do. let me know if you need help.

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Because of my asthma, I can't shoot black powder. I have 2 loads for my Shilo Sharps #3 Sporting Rifle in .45-70 that will give me 1350-1400 fps using a 405 grain RNFPGC bullet. The first is a nice 100 yard gallery round using Red Dot, the second I use for steel out to 500 yds using IMR 4895.

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