.38 special factory load

[Jeb Stuart #65654]

Was part of  a discussion about falling plate racks.  The recommended setting by SASS for the plates are that they should be set to fall when squarely hit by a standard 38 special factory load.  What bullet weight does SASS consider factory standard?

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

IIRC it was a 148gn bullet, wadcutter target load.

OLG

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

It was the old "standard" 158 grain round nose police load.  It was in the Shooter's Handbook up to the current version which left out the "158."

[Judge Gardner]

Any bullet that makes power factor should that them down.

[Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933]

15 minutes ago, GARDNER KID said:

Any bullet that makes power factor should that them down.

Not so.  It has been noted many times that a minimum power factor load might not take down a reactive target set for a "standard" .38 load.  A .32 caliber 78 grain bullet or a 105 grain .38 loaded at 60.1 PF or a 36 C&B might not take a target down.  That's why a lot of people carry "knock-down" loads in their carts.

[Null N. Void]

For knockdowns, I shoot a 158 grain bullet in 38 special for both my rifle and pistols.  A sticky target will go down with light loads, but sometimes it's slow and it's a distraction.  Distractions equals lost time.  When I hit the knockdowns with a 158 grain bullet going at 800 FPS, they go down.

 

NNV

[Major BS Walker Regulator]

My regular loads are not wimps but I also carry knock down loads

[Cowboy Junky]

Regardless of the 'rules" I wouldn't set any rifle or pistol KD's that heavy. IMHO it should be a it or miss issue more than a power factor issue. I set ours so  22 takes em' down..........makes for happier shooters. 

[Snakebite]

The "Standard" load used for setting Knockdown Plates is 38 special, 158 gn, 750 fps.

 

Snakebite

[Goody, SASS #26190]

21 minutes ago, Cowboy Junky said:

Regardless of the 'rules" I wouldn't set any rifle or pistol KD's that heavy. IMHO it should be a it or miss issue more than a power factor issue. I set ours so  22 takes em' down..........makes for happier shooters. 

 Why bother with KD's at all then? They take extra time to set after each shooter, ropes break, chains break or come detached, people forget to reset. When they are very light as you suggest they will fall 2 or 3 at a time giving some shooters and advantage over others.

[Jimmy Reb, SASS #54804]

Because they are FUN !!!

[Charlie Whiskers]

4 hours ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

 Why bother with KD's at all then? They take extra time to set after each shooter, ropes break, chains break or come detached, people forget to reset. When they are very light as you suggest they will fall 2 or 3 at a time giving some shooters and advantage over others.

 

  Do you have kids shooting where you are? NO they don't have to knock down a plate with their 22's, but seeing the big smile on their faces when they do is worth it. Plus they ARE the future of SASS...not us old farts...so cater to doing things that make them want to continue shooting.

[Scarlett]

I love knock downs, plate racks and stars. I shoot a 32. HR Single Sixes and Marlin.  I shoot 78 grain bullets.  The only time I’ve ever had trouble with knockdowns (other than MISSING) was a tombstone plate rack at the Georgia Man on Man Shootout. My loads are not wimpy.

 

Hugs,

 

Scarlett

[Goody, SASS #26190]

15 minutes ago, Charlie Whiskers said:

 

  Do you have kids shooting where you are? NO they don't have to knock down a plate with their 22's, but seeing the big smile on their faces when they do is worth it. Plus they ARE the future of SASS...not us old farts...so cater to doing things that make them want to continue shooting.

 

So I guess you set your SG targets extremely light as well? Build all of your tables at about 25 inches from the ground?

[Swift Stoney 49735]

I must just be shooting KDs that Cowboy Junky sets up because I have never had an issue with taking them down, the Texas Star included. I shoot the same 38 load in both rifle and pistol. The bullet size is 125 gr and I load below the tables.

[Marauder SASS #13056]

But once in a while.

 

It has been a few years but some clubs didn't have good knock-downs.

One state shoot, I was in the shoot off.  I had my 160 grain bullets loaded to about 950 fps.  I hit the knockdown about 2 inches from the top - it hardly wiggled.  Only a few 45 shooters got it down, but most of those didn't.  Fortunately, they eventually got new targets.

 

But I still carry some 140 grain and 160 grain loads loaded to a little over 800 fps just to be sure.

[Charlie Whiskers]

9 minutes ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

 

So I guess you set your SG targets extremely light as well? Build all of your tables at about 25 inches from the ground?

 

 A 410 takes down our SG targets with NO problem. The tables are normal height but the "shorter" kids can stand next to them if needed. Most are tall enough to shoot from behind them...even 8 or 9 year olds.

 So I'm guessing you don't like KD's...why is that...because you might have to go reset some, or are you in a hurry to show up...shoot and go home? IF the spotters and/or TO is looking they'll catch the fact that the targets weren't reset.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

18 minutes ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

 

So I guess you set your SG targets extremely light as well? Build all of your tables at about 25 inches from the ground?

 

What's your point here? 

Most of us like KD targets, and doesn't take much to reset'em.

The Texas Star can be a bit of a PITA to reset when there is only 1 person do'n it. BTDT-

OLG

[Chili Ron]

Howdy,

Maybe just a handful of 357 manglems?

Best

CR

 

[Charlie Whiskers]

4 minutes ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

But once in a while.

 

It has been a few years but some clubs didn't have good knock-downs.

One state shoot, I was in the shoot off.  I had my 160 grain bullets loaded to about 950 fps.  I hit the knockdown about 2 inches from the top - it hardly wiggled.  Only a few 45 shooters got it down, but most of those didn't.  Fortunately, they eventually got new targets.

 

But I still carry some 140 grain and 160 grain loads loaded to a little over 800 fps just to be sure.

 

  Our plate racks have adjustment bolts hidden behind a piece if angle iron. We can adjust the targets forward or back depending on the terrain of a particular bay. So far the only rack we have had a problem with is a NEW tombstone rack (it's only been used at 2 shoots so far) . That needs a heavier bullet. We talked about that one at the BOD meeting Tuesday and decided what we could do to eliminate the problem is getting rid of the re-set apparatus. That should cure the problem. And making sure the rack is level will help too.

[Goody, SASS #26190]

No sir, I love KD's. When I was still shooting the thing that kept me engaged the last 3 years was the advent of Wild Bunch, with perhaps 60 to 70 KD's per match including SG. And realistic PF'ers.

 

My initial response was in regards to Cowboy Junky's post concerning setting them light enough to go down with 22's because for him it is "more of a hit or miss issue rather than a power factor issue". Then you chimed in thinking I was against children in some manner. My reply to you was seeing how far your rationalization went as to doing things for the kids sake.

 

And unless you know me I wouldn't go assuming that I was "in a hurry to show up...shoot and go home". I can assure you that I have done far more for my clubs, shooters and the TSRA that you can imagine.

[Charlie Whiskers]

6 minutes ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

No sir, I love KD's. When I was still shooting the thing that kept me engaged the last 3 years was the advent of Wild Bunch, with perhaps 60 to 70 KD's per match including SG. And realistic PF'ers.

 

My initial response was in regards to Cowboy Junky's post concerning setting them light enough to go down with 22's because for him it is "more of a hit or miss issue rather than a power factor issue". Then you chimed in thinking I was against children in some manner. My reply to you was seeing how far your rationalization went as to doing things for the kids sake.

 

  Well my rationalization is still because kids are the future of SASS AND WB. The last I heard or saw posted in some thread, is that the average age of SASS is in the 60's (I think it said). If SASS and SASS clubs want to keep existing, they NEED more kids to be interested in something other than a hand held video game and X box.

 

  And if you shoot WB...yup you have a BUNCH of KD's. More power to you, I never could get into WB and I've tried it several times. I know a lot of folks enjoy doing it. But I didn't start shooting CAS to shoot 1911's and I have 2 of them.

[chestnut louie]

My 125 grain bullets at 700 fps take them down with a square hit

[Jabez Cowboy,SASS # 50129]

I like Knock-Downs and my loads Love them !!!

I use full case loads of Goex 3f  in All my loads,  .38-40 with 180 gr bullets , 220 gr bullets in .44 spl. and either 255 or 270 gr. bullets in .45 Colt...

The .38-40 runs around  1,300 in my 66 , .44 specials run 940 in my revolvers and 1,206 in my Marlin 94 and my .45 colts run between 926 and 960 depending on which revolver is used, and between 1,224 and 1,280 depending on rifle used...

And they all make lot's of smoke ....

I use 3F fer filler ....................

 

Jabez Cowboy

[Yusta B.]

6 hours ago, Scarlett said:

I love knock downs, plate racks and stars. I shoot a 32. HR Single Sixes and Marlin.  I shoot 78 grain bullets.  The only time I’ve ever had trouble with knockdowns (other than MISSING) was a tombstone plate rack at the Georgia Man on Man Shootout. My loads are not wimpy - about 750 FPS out of the Rifle. 

 

Hugs,

 

Scarlett

Poster's fps was a typo - all is well in the world !!

 

Doesn't meet power factor in rifle. Pistol will be even less.

 

[Scarlett]

37 minutes ago, Yusta B. said:

Doesn't meet power factor in rifle. Pistol will be even less.

Crap!  I knew I shouldn’t post while I’m casting... Duh. I was not concentrating and worried about posting load data....  My pistols are about 900 FPS and my rifle is approx 1100 FPS.   Thank you for pointing out my error! 

 

Hugs,

 

Scarlett

[Yusta B.]

Very glad to hear that ! I also shoot .32's as does my daughter & GD. I'll go back & fix my post.

[Cowboy Junky]

Goody not very many shooter's in SASS are shooting a 850 FPS/158 grain 38 or equivalent loads. Many of the shooters that travel around do take knock down ammo along but many don't. Also many people are shooting 32's and it's really hard to even match that at all.

 

That said the PF for SASS is 60........the ammo people are shooting is SASS legal SO IMO rather than set a reactive target up for a PW most people aren't at I choose to set it so if you hit it.....it falls with any SASS load that meets power factor.....just makes more sense. 

 

Reactive targets are still smaller and still "reactive" and can add flavor to yer' standard SASS stages......how hard they have to be hit has nothing to do with that add factor. Most people really enjoy them and one thing I can tell you is they really DON'T enjoy them when they hit them square with a 700 FPS 105 and it doesn't fall. 

 

You can have the attitude you have and many do......but if your goal is to send people away happy and grow your club it's not going to work that way.........I have seen that play out for years. 

 

 

[Goody, SASS #26190]

1 hour ago, Cowboy Junky said:

Goody not very many shooter's in SASS are shooting a 850 FPS/158 grain 38 or equivalent loads. Many of the shooters that travel around do take knock down ammo along but many don't. Also many people are shooting 32's and it's really hard to even match that at all.

 

That said the PF for SASS is 60........the ammo people are shooting is SASS legal SO IMO rather than set a reactive target up for a PW most people aren't at I choose to set it so if you hit it.....it falls with any SASS load that meets power factor.....just makes more sense. 

 

Reactive targets are still smaller and still "reactive" and can add flavor to yer' standard SASS stages......how hard they have to be hit has nothing to do with that add factor. Most people really enjoy them and one thing I can tell you is they really DON'T enjoy them when they hit them square with a 700 FPS 105 and it doesn't fall. 

 

You can have the attitude you have and many do......but if your goal is to send people away happy and grow your club it's not going to work that way.........I have seen that play out for years. 

 

 

 

Once again, I was replying to your statement "IMHO it should be a it or miss issue more than a power factor issue". If all you care is whether someone hits or misses steel then why put up with the extra hassle of having KD's in the first place. I personally don't care how you set you targets, just wondering about your rationale. For the record I feel that the standard is wrong. Just as you state, if you are going to state a minimum PF then that should be the standard. And as for attitude I really don't know what you mean. If someone doesn't agree with you they have attitude?

[Tracker Jack Daniels,58780]

2 hours ago, Cowboy Junky said:

Goody not very many shooter's in SASS are shooting a 850 FPS/158 grain 38 or equivalent loads. Many of the shooters that travel around do take knock down ammo along but many don't. Also many people are shooting 32's and it's really hard to even match that at all.

 

That said the PF for SASS is 60........the ammo people are shooting is SASS legal SO IMO rather than set a reactive target up for a PW most people aren't at I choose to set it so if you hit it.....it falls with any SASS load that meets power factor.....just makes more sense. 

 

Reactive targets are still smaller and still "reactive" and can add flavor to yer' standard SASS stages......how hard they have to be hit has nothing to do with that add factor. Most people really enjoy them and one thing I can tell you is they really DON'T enjoy them when they hit them square with a 700 FPS 105 and it doesn't fall. 

 

You can have the attitude you have and many do......but if your goal is to send people away happy and grow your club it's not going to work that way.........I have seen that play out for years. 

 

 

+1000

 

If you want to frustrate and discourage shooters make your targets hard to hit and/or hard to knock down.  That is a sure recipe to drive shooters away.  Shooters come to have fun and hit targets.  Make it so that they cannot do that and they will vote with their feet and not return.  Once you drive shooters away it is very difficult, if not impossible, to get them to come back.

 

When I travel somewhere new, I carry "special" knockdown loads for all my guns.  If I observe someone having difficulty with a KD with a good hit, I get them out and solve that problem.  When I touch them off, the entire range knows, it does not take long for the tough target to get fixed or replaced.  

 

When I set the steel for my matches I make sure that they fall easily enough for any Buckaroo or Buckarett to take them down.  I know that the targets do not have to fall for them, but the look of pride and accomplishment on their faces says it all.  The future of this game we love is our kids, make them happy and it will survive and thrive.  Frustrate them and they will leave and our game will wither and die.  Make you choice carefully!

 

Goody, I know how much of yourself that you have put into this game.  I admire and respect you for that; but on this we just will have to agree to disagree. 

[Cowboy Junky]

3 hours ago, Goody, SASS #26190 said:

 

Once again, I was replying to your statement "IMHO it should be a it or miss issue more than a power factor issue". If all you care is whether someone hits or misses steel then why put up with the extra hassle of having KD's in the first place. I personally don't care how you set you targets, just wondering about your rationale. For the record I feel that the standard is wrong. Just as you state, if you are going to state a minimum PF then that should be the standard. And as for attitude I really don't know what you mean. If someone doesn't agree with you they have attitude?

I guess I'm not following you. If you set them light and they hit them.....they fall down which is the whole point of a KD target. If they miss them then it's still up and a miss or a time addition to their score to make it up with a shotgun. What I try to avoid is them hitting them square with a SASS legal load and they still get a miss because they aren't shooting a 130+ power factor instead of less. 

[Null N. Void]

I'll chime in to support Junky here.  I carry 158 grain .38 special loads for a couple of clubs that have sticky targets.  I'd rather use my normal loads (pf in the 80 to 90 range) but don't want a hit that's not in the right spot to leave the target up.  Personally, I think that any load that meets the PF should take a knockdown out.

 

We need to be cognizant of people that have hand, wrist or rotator cuff issues and are trying not to damage them further.  I've too many friends that are having issues and I'm trying hard not to do things that will make me join them.  

 

What I see is shooter frustration with a good solid hit on a target and it doesn't go down.  I agree with Junky.  if the load meets PF and you hit the target, it should go down.  The difficulty is hitting a small target, not hitting it hard.

[Rio Brazos Kid]

    That's alright Scarlet.  Those 32's will get the job done in fine fashion.  I occasionally shoot some Baby Vaquaro's in 32 Mag.  100 Gr bullets at 670 FPS.  Meets power factor and has never failed on KD targets.  Admittedly, I try to keep my hits in the upper half of the targets, but sometimes that don't happen.  So far the only consequence has been that on low hits, they just fall a bit slower.

 

       RBK 

[Sgt. Chesty SASS # 73317]

I use "knock down" loads to have the plates fall faster, my regular rounds will take knock a reactive plate down, but I don't want anything to cause me to hesitate going to the next target.

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

At the Tennessee State Match last year and for the last several years I've set up the KD's for the Team Match and Shoot-off to go down with a .22 hit in the upper third of the target and still have some that don't take them down with a solid hit but the next shooter take them down without a problem. I like many never chronograph my loads and I expect some are shooting a lot lighter loads than they think.  

 

I don't have a good answer because I like KD targets sometimes but hate it when they don't fall. I think those who set them up just have to do the best they can and hope they fall when hit.

 

Randy