Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 Stage shooting order is rifle, pistol, shotgun. At the beep shooter attempted to fire rifle but had a squib on the first round. The TO instructed the shooter to move on and finish the stage for the sake of recording a time. I know that the shooter could have and should have gotten a restart since no round had gone down range. I know what the TO “should” have done. What I am interested in is whether the shooter should be granted a reshoot for this or not. My initial thought would be no because they were not committed to the stage until the first pistol shot went down range and I don’t really feel that a TO not offering a restart (although one was warranted) would be grounds for a reshoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 reshoot,,, improper coaching from the TO.... had the TO said nothing,, then it wud be on the shooter imho,,,,, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted November 18, 2017 Author Share Posted November 18, 2017 4 minutes ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said: reshoot,,, improper coaching from the TO.... had the TO said nothing,, then it wud be on the shooter imho,,,,, But was the coaching actually improper, or just not the best course of action? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted November 18, 2017 Author Share Posted November 18, 2017 I guess the real question is, is it the responsibility of the shooter to ask for a restart, or for the TO to offer one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jackrabbit Joe #414 Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 My call would be re-shoot just plain spirit of the game. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Red-Eyed Kid, SASS # 37263 Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 1) find a TO that knows the rules 2) no bullet left the barrel, shooter not committed to the stage yet, first PISTOL shot has nothing to do with it, it's the 1st shot of any gun. 3) TO should have stopped the shooter and offered re shoot 4) if the shooter knows the rules, shooter has the right to stop themselves and request re shoot. But, as written, even after the fact that shooter finished the stage because of improper coaching, should still have been offered a re shoot. Apparently, nobody on that posse knew the rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 he SHOULD have been offered a re-start,, instead of teilling the shooter to advance, but since he wasn't, a re-shoot should have been offered... because of improper coaching Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 28 minutes ago, Smokestack said: But was the coaching actually improper, or just not the best course of action? IMHO it was improper coaching as the TO told the shooter to continue. I have to agree with Cheyenne on this one. If the shooter continued on his on, no reshoot but he was told to finish the stage which was improper coaching so he should get a reshoot. I think he should have been offered a restart to start with instead of being told to continue. Randy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Major BS Walker Regulator Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 What Mr. Cheyenne just said. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 I'm with CC on this. T/O should have offered a restart, rather than tell the shooter to keep going (improper coaching)... even though the SQUIB procedures state: Quote In the event a Chief Range Officer suspects a squib load has been encountered, an immediate command shall be given to the shooter to make that firearm safe and continue on with the next procedure. RO2 p.8 Directing the shooter to "continue on..." with 50 seconds in penalties before a round has gone downrange is not, IMO, the intent of the squib-handling procedures. It obviously refers to a squib that occurs MID-STAGE. REF: RO3 p.7 The shooter should have been offered a reSHOOT after finishing the stage at the T/Os mis-direction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grizzly Dave Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 As much as it pains me to say this , I agree with Culpepper on this one. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted November 18, 2017 Author Share Posted November 18, 2017 2 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: I'm with CC on this. T/O should have offered a restart, rather than tell the shooter to keep going (improper coaching)... even though the SQUIB procedures state: RO2 p.8 Directing the shooter to "continue on..." with 50 second in penalties before a round has gone downrange is not, IMO, the intent of the squib-handling procedures. It obviously refers to a squib that occurs MID-STAGE. REF: RO3 p.7 Thank you PaleWolf. So TO interference or bad coaching can be grounds for a reshoot if the shooter decides to ask for one, even if it occurred prior to the shooter committing to the stage? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 4 minutes ago, Smokestack said: Thank you PaleWolf. So TO interference or bad coaching can be grounds for a reshoot if the shooter decides to ask for one, even if it occurred prior to the shooter committing to the stage? In this particular case, YES. Improper coaching by the T/O is always grounds to request a reshoot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted November 18, 2017 Author Share Posted November 18, 2017 1 minute ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: In this particular case, YES. Improper coaching by the T/O is always grounds for a reshoot. Except in cases where a safety infraction results in a SDQ. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted November 18, 2017 Author Share Posted November 18, 2017 It seems to me that the onus would be on the shooter to know the rules, stop and ask to restart if indeed they felt that they were not given a clean start. But I understand both sides of this argument. thank you for the clarification. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted November 18, 2017 Share Posted November 18, 2017 2 minutes ago, Smokestack said: It seems to me that the onus would be on the shooter to know the rules, stop and ask to restart if indeed they felt that they were not given a clean start. But I understand both sides of this argument. thank you for the clarification. It is also incumbent on the T/O to know the rules as well. This may have been a misunderstanding of the proper application of the RO2 squib handling procedure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smokestack SASS#87384 Posted November 18, 2017 Author Share Posted November 18, 2017 Just now, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said: It is also incumbent on the T/O to know the rules as well. I agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Hombre Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 It would be more pertinent for the T/O to tell the shooter to stop and go to the unload table once he reacted to the squib and tell them to restart as we all know when we are in the shooting position adrenalin takes over and we focus on completing the stage than for the shooter to ask for one because the T/O "should" be composed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Griff Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 Insisting that the shooter start the stage with 50 seconds of penalties is asinine. However, the TO is the Range Officer in charge of the stage. And rather than berate him unmercifully for his misstep in "the heat of the moment", taking the opportunity to teach the TO a "new trick" after the fact, is also in the spirit of the game. Any TO that hasn't made an error during the course of their tenure with the timer, has had VERY few turns at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tracker Jack Daniels,58780 Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 The TO is in bad need of a RO refresher course. If he would be familiar with the rules he would have known that without a round going down range the correct thing to do was to have the shooter go to the unloading table, clear the squib, then get back in line to try again. To expect a shooter to continue with the stage like that is cruel and contrary to the cowboy spirit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clueless Bob Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 This sounds like what happened to me, but with my pistol, awhile back. At that match as well as quite a few before and since, during the shooters meeting, it has been stated that if ANYTHING happens during the stage, CONTINUE with the stage. After the dust settles, then the decision on how to move forward is decided. The logic to this concept, good or bad, is anyone's call. We all have seen restarts, usually fumbling your shotgun shells, pistols or rifle right after the beep. What I think muddies the perverbial waters, when "in the heat of the moment" and the other confusions start, is when the round goes BANG, but the bullet didn't leave the firearm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodyMaverick Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 14 hours ago, Smokestack said: I guess the real question is, is it the responsibility of the shooter to ask for a restart, or for the TO to offer one? I think it would be an option for the shooter to ask for a restart/reshoot and a responsibility for the TO to offer it. Since a squib is most commonly encountered mid-stage I think it is a natural reaction for the TO to instruct the shooter to ground the gun and move on. This reaction needs to be very quick since there may be very little time before a next shot is attempted. This particular case is unique in that it happened to be the first shot of the stage. I don't think it's fair to criticize the TO or the shooter for not immediately recognizing that fact and reacting accordingly. Even the most experienced and rule savvy TO or shooter could make this error. The important point here is that the TO did prevent the shooter from firing a second shot into a plugged barrel. As a shooter I know that I can restart if something goes wrong before the first round goes down range but in this case that little nuance may not come to my mind immediately either. I am accustomed to following the TO's instructions right away and without stopping to question whether or not they were correct or appropriate. At big matches with TOs that I don't know and don't know me, I will ask them not to coach me at all. "Don't say anything except Stop! or Cease Fire!". No matter how correct or proper the coaching may be, it is more likely to hang me up than to help me out. I would not have minded at all that this TO instructed or allowed me to complete the stage. I have to empty the pistols anyway and I would prefer to fire them at some targets. I came to shoot and brought plenty of ammo. A little extra shotgun practice is always welcome too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Clueless Bob Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 6 minutes ago, CodyMaverick said: I think it would be an option for the shooter to ask for a restart/reshoot and a responsibility for the TO to offer it. Since a squib is most commonly encountered mid-stage I think it is a natural reaction for the TO to instruct the shooter to ground the gun and move on. This reaction needs to be very quick since there may be very little time before a next shot is attempted. This particular case is unique in that it happened to be the first shot of the stage. I don't think it's fair to criticize the TO or the shooter for not immediately recognizing that fact and reacting accordingly. Even the most experienced and rule savvy TO or shooter could make this error. The important point here is that the TO did prevent the shooter from firing a second shot into a plugged barrel. As a shooter I know that I can restart if something goes wrong before the first round goes down range but in this case that little nuance may not come to my mind immediately either. I am accustomed to following the TO's instructions right away and without stopping to question whether or not they were correct or appropriate. At big matches with TOs that I don't know and don't know me, I will ask them not to coach me at all. "Don't say anything except Stop! or Cease Fire!". No matter how correct or proper the coaching may be, it is more likely to hang me up than to help me out. I would not have minded at all that this TO instructed or allowed me to complete the stage. I have to empty the pistols anyway and I would prefer to fire them at some targets. I came to shoot and brought plenty of ammo. A little extra shotgun practice is always welcome too. Exactly!!! On a side note Cody, my folks were born and raised in Deltaville, VA. They ended up living in Hampton when my dad retired from the Air Force. When we went to visit family in Saluda and Deltaville, we would at times go through West Point. Always liked going that route. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CodyMaverick Posted November 19, 2017 Share Posted November 19, 2017 27 minutes ago, Clueless Bob said: Exactly!!! On a side note Cody, my folks were born and raised in Deltaville, VA. They ended up living in Hampton when my dad retired from the Air Force. When we went to visit family in Saluda and Deltaville, we would at times go through West Point. Always liked going that route. I'll be headed that way this morning for our monthly match. It is actually in Shacklefords but we just call it West Point. If you get down this way again, stop on by! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MizPete Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 What about shooter who (repeatedly) call restarts for themselves? Just askin'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 11 minutes ago, MizPete said: What about shooter who (repeatedly) call restarts for themselves? Just askin'. Quote Restarts shall be allowed for a competitor to achieve a “clean” start, before the first round goes down range. Multiple restarts by the same shooter, that in the judgment of the CRO/TO are seen to be “taking advantage,” will not be entertained as they are not in the Spirit of the Game. SHB p.20 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Grey Beard Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 1 hour ago, MizPete said: What about shooter who (repeatedly) call restarts for themselves? Just askin'. If you are referring to a shooter having 2 squibs to start the stage in a row I would be insisting they come back with different ammo if they want to keep shooting the match. If it's about fumbling and wanting additional restarts I tell the shooter after the 2nd restart if they fumble they need to continue. Only ever had to do that once. GB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kirk James Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 If a TO says stop and you do not, it is a stage dq. If a TO says go, and it is improper coaching, it should be grounds for a re-shoot. The benefit should go to the shooter. I understand it should not be grounds for moving with a loaded firearm. We should not be criticizing TO's that make a mistake. If we only allow TO's that make every call perfect, there will be no one left to time us! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shooting Bull Posted November 20, 2017 Share Posted November 20, 2017 On 11/18/2017 at 3:48 PM, Grizzly Dave said: As much as it pains me to say this , I agree with Culpepper on this one. Even worse, you're agreeing with Pale Wolf. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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