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Is the Ivory Ban Dead?


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Per the press this morning, President Trump has reversed the Obama position on African big game trophies, which will now, to some degree, be allowed to be imported into the US.

 

Wonder if this means that we will again be able to buy and sell "pre-ban" ivory, and not fear confiscation of ivory grips and piano keys?

 

LL

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I hope it’s over.

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Trophy hunting rates up there with douche bags who buy sports cars to compensate for their other short comings. Hunt for food, not trophies. 

My grand folks were antique dealers for decades, never a hassle selling pre-ban/vintage/antique ivory.

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14 minutes ago, CurlyDrew42 said:

Trophy hunting rates up there with douche bags who buy sports cars to compensate for their other short comings. Hunt for food, not trophies. 

My grand folks were antique dealers for decades, never a hassle selling pre-ban/vintage/antique ivory.

 

Man, you are a bit quick to criticize and condemn folks that you don't even know.  

 

"Trophy hunting" can be pursued just as ethically as meat hunting, as long as the people involved follow conservation laws and distribute the meat to locals who appreciate (and need) the food.  It can also provide a much needed flow of cash to finance endangered species protection and conservation.  

 

You might consider saving your righteous indignation for poachers.

 

The Federal restrictions on sales of elephant ivory were strengthened under the last Administration; the distinction for "pre-ban" ivory was eliminated, and almost all ivory is now banned from commerce.  https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/energy-environment/wp/2016/06/02/its-final-selling-just-about-any-item-containing-elephant-ivory-is-a-crime-in-the-u-s/?utm_term=.414427cac872

 

LL

 

 

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35 minutes ago, CurlyDrew42 said:

Trophy hunting rates up there with douche bags who buy sports cars to compensate for their other short comings. Hunt for food, not trophies. 

My grand folks were antique dealers for decades, never a hassle selling pre-ban/vintage/antique ivory.

Again, you use that wide brush. :rolleyes:

I have taken trophy and meat animals. All done within the law.......

X2 about poachers. :angry:

OLG

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I might add that many villagers have problem with renegade wild animals that destroy the village or even their crops growing for food. They don't have the guns needed for a renegade elephant and will beg a hunter to come and eliminate the animal. After the kill within hours only bones will be left, for the village will obtain much needed meat. 

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The problem with ivory is poachers with AK47s, not trophy hunters. The meat from legally hunted animals is donated to locals.

 

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1 hour ago, Loophole LaRue, SASS #51438 said:

Man, you are a bit quick to criticize and condemn folks that you don't even know

No not really.  I despise trophy hunters.  Especially when it comes to animal populations that ride the edge of the endangered species lists.  But I have plenty of dislike for trophy hunters in general.  My uncle held three national trophy records for quite a long time in the 70s & 80s.  Bear, Elk and Mountain Lion.  Prime example of a jackass who felt the need to show how "manly" he was by displaying his kills.

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5 minutes ago, CurlyDrew42 said:

No not really.  I despise trophy hunters.  Especially when it comes to animal populations that ride the edge of the endangered species lists.  But I have plenty of dislike for trophy hunters in general.  My uncle held three national trophy records for quite a long time in the 70s & 80s.  Bear, Elk and Mountain Lion.  Prime example of a jackass who felt the need to show how "manly" he was by displaying his kills.

 

I suppose you will not display any Buckles or Trophy's you may acquire as well.  Surely you will not feel the need to display "manly" evidence of your skills.  Indignation is fine but have you considered that most of the heads that are trophy worthy are way past their prime many are outcasts and therefore non breeders.   In todays world legal hunting preserves species because they are worth serious money.  So save your indignation for global warming and quit driving.

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36 minutes ago, CurlyDrew42 said:

No not really.  I despise trophy hunters.  Especially when it comes to animal populations that ride the edge of the endangered species lists.  But I have plenty of dislike for trophy hunters in general.  My uncle held three national trophy records for quite a long time in the 70s & 80s.  Bear, Elk and Mountain Lion.  Prime example of a jackass who felt the need to show how "manly" he was by displaying his kills.

 

I see you completely ignored the rest of Loophole LaRue's post. Basing your dislike of something based on a single experience and an obvious lack of understanding of all any endeavor like hunting entails is very narrow minded.

 

I Personally know several people that trophy hunt. None of them have ever dishonored the animal they so skillfully pursued by leaving the carcass to go to waste. Meat of any kind is a precious commodity in many countries. So the meat that locals receive from trophy hunters is highly valued. The money spent benefits a lot of people in addition to funding conservation efforts. Efforts that would not exist because the host countries cannot fund it themselves and the people that protest trophy hunting never put their money where their mouth is.

 

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52 minutes ago, CurlyDrew42 said:

No not really.  I despise trophy hunters.  Especially when it comes to animal populations that ride the edge of the endangered species lists.  But I have plenty of dislike for trophy hunters in general.  My uncle held three national trophy records for quite a long time in the 70s & 80s.  Bear, Elk and Mountain Lion.  Prime example of a jackass who felt the need to show how "manly" he was by displaying his kills.

 Go back and re-read LL's posts before you let your 'knowledge' interfere with facts.

WHY-do you 'despise trophy hunters'? I have taken the 3 animals you spoke of. Killed the ML to save a friend's cattle.

BTW-Those 3 animals you listed are no ways near 'endangered species' At least 2 of them are 'pests' that can kill you and destroy your livelihood. Chew on that for a bit. ;)

OLG

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20 minutes ago, twelve mile REB said:

Buckles or Trophy's

Dude, not even remotely the same thing.  Besides that there are plenty of women out there who have trophy buckles so your point comes off as a little sexist.  I have no problem with legal hunting at all, just not for trophies.  We have regulations in this country, hunter education and a fairly long history of ethical hunting mixed with a fairly long history of jerks who left buffalo rotting in the sun after they took the parts worth the most money.  You want to go to Africa and shoot an elephant or a lion from a helicopter, you go right ahead.  It doesn't make you billy bada**, display any skill or sportsmanship. And if you think that all those rich douche bags shooting elephants are doing it out of the goodness of their hearts for the good people of "the village" then you are living in a special little world.  You want to hang a buck on your wall or stuff a bear, great.  I see a hide and bones and sinew that went to waste or antler that could have been used as buttons or tool handles.  Trophy hunting is petty at best and despicable in general in my opinion. 

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1 minute ago, CurlyDrew42 said:

Dude, not even remotely the same thing.  Besides that there are plenty of women out there who have trophy buckles so your point comes off as a little sexist.  I have no problem with legal hunting at all, just not for trophies.  We have regulations in this country, hunter education and a fairly long history of ethical hunting mixed with a fairly long history of jerks who left buffalo rotting in the sun after they took the parts worth the most money.  You want to go to Africa and shoot an elephant or a lion from a helicopter, you go right ahead.  It doesn't make you billy bada**, display any skill or sportsmanship. And if you think that all those rich douche bags shooting elephants are doing it out of the goodness of their hearts for the good people of "the village" then you are living in a special little world.  You want to hang a buck on your wall or stuff a bear, great.  I see a hide and bones and sinew that went to waste or antler that could have been used as buttons or tool handles.  Trophy hunting is petty at best and despicable in general in my opinion. 

If you put any faster spin on those inaccurate unsupported  remarks. We would be dizzy. :wacko:

Your remarks/opinions do not fall inline with facts. 

OLG

 

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8 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

I have taken the 3 animals you spoke of.

Did you feel the need to have them stuffed and mounted?  Were you doing it to harvest the marketable parts for sale to an over seas market?  Taking an animal that poses a danger, also no problem with that.  Use what you take is all I am saying.  Yes I know the trophy worthy animals are more rare then your average run of the mill critter but consider that elephant populations in Kenya went from around a quarter of a million in the 70s to about 20k by 1990.  You can't convince me that that many elephants were out there stomping village crops into the ground.  Poaching is already a major problem when it comes to ivory, always has been, opening up the field to legal hunting is contributing to the problem, my personal views of trophy hunting aside.

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6 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Your remarks/opinions do not fall inline with facts. 

Well you know what they say about opinions. ;)

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13 minutes ago, CurlyDrew42 said:

Dude, not even remotely the same thing.  Besides that there are plenty of women out there who have trophy buckles so your point comes off as a little sexist.  I have no problem with legal hunting at all, just not for trophies.  We have regulations in this country, hunter education and a fairly long history of ethical hunting mixed with a fairly long history of jerks who left buffalo rotting in the sun after they took the parts worth the most money.  You want to go to Africa and shoot an elephant or a lion from a helicopter, you go right ahead.  It doesn't make you billy bada**, display any skill or sportsmanship. And if you think that all those rich douche bags shooting elephants are doing it out of the goodness of their hearts for the good people of "the village" then you are living in a special little world.  You want to hang a buck on your wall or stuff a bear, great.  I see a hide and bones and sinew that went to waste or antler that could have been used as buttons or tool handles.  Trophy hunting is petty at best and despicable in general in my opinion. 

My wife and I and many CAS friends enjoyed eating this one. The rest of his hide is a coat that I wear. I’m not rich by any means but I guess to you I’m a “douche bag”? I guess I’ll take that as a compliment. I found the mule deer buck carcass and had a taxadermist do the mount. 

D44CADB5-B0CF-422E-8CC9-D1935E5BE9CA.jpeg

A2935492-B3F3-4DA7-BA97-D1D6505A9B90.jpeg

3154D03E-B1F8-4A07-8979-B6CEC38F2CAB.jpeg

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1 minute ago, CurlyDrew42 said:

Did you feel the need to have them stuffed and mounted?  Were you doing it to harvest the marketable parts for sale to an over seas market?  Taking an animal that poses a danger, also no problem with that.  Use what you take is all I am saying.  Yes I know the trophy worthy animals are more rare then your average run of the mill critter but consider that elephant populations in Kenya went from around a quarter of a million in the 70s to about 20k by 1990.  You can't convince me that that many elephants were out there stomping village crops into the ground.  Poaching is already a major problem when it comes to ivory, always has been, opening up the field to legal hunting is contributing to the problem, my personal views of trophy hunting aside.

There is more than one type of 'Ivory'.

BTW-Much larger Elephant populations outside of Kenya, in southern Africa. Kenya is known for 'cats', smaller game and Rino plus Wildebeests.

I worked 2 summers for a PH north of Nairobi.

OLG

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Nice coat!

Yeah I think the mounts are a little douchey, sorry. But Lets face it. Dampnut pushed back that ivory ban so his kids could go big game hunting. 

Also, I am probably the least liked person active on this forum.  Why I keep commenting is beyond me some days. So I am pretty sure you don't give two shakes about my opinion.

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Won't help us here in the golden tarnished, peeling, brass-plate state.  :(

 

Last year a law was emplaced to close a "loophole" that allowed ivory already in the state prior to the 1977 ban to be traded.

 

Now, if you tried to trade or sell great-great-grandpa's original Schofield with factory ivory grips you'd be in deep doo-doo:  <_<

 

"The sale of ivory, rhino horn or products that contain ivory will be

a misdemeanor, punishable by fines up to $50,000 and one year of incarceration."

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I know a gentleman who was a license professional hunter in three African countries. (He decided to quite as there was too much danger from "grrrillas"...no, not the kind Ms Jane Goodall studied...the kind with the AK-47's!)  He himself took many Cape Buffalo...primarily at the behest of the local game wardens, who were attempting to stave off starvation on the part of the local natives.  Never any danger to the size of the herds of M'bogo.  He did have at least one of the heads mounted, which he hung in his gunshop.  (You can't eat horns!) Personally, before I quit hunting due to age, financial considerations and chronic wasting disease in deer and elk.  But I did a lot of hunting for one trophy elk.  Unfortunately, all my hunting never got me near to a trophy bull elk! :(  If I could come up with the money, I'd like to hunt a nice bison. I love buffalo (bison) meat! ;)  Not sure I'd have enough wall space to put up a mounted head.  I can always go to "Ted's" to see a big one, however!

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5 minutes ago, CurlyDrew42 said:

Nice coat!

Yeah I think the mounts are a little douchey, sorry. But Lets face it. Dampnut pushed back that ivory ban so his kids could go big game hunting. 

Also, I am probably the least liked person active on this forum.  Why I keep commenting is beyond me some days. So I am pretty sure you don't give two shakes about my opinion.

Well, if you don't know why you keep commenting, does anyone have your hands chained to the keyboard? If you take pleasure in getting flamed, maybe you need to talk with someone about it.  OTOH, the First Amendment does give you the right...

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1 minute ago, CurlyDrew42 said:

Nice coat!

Yeah I think the mounts are a little douchey, sorry. But Lets face it. Dampnut pushed back that ivory ban so his kids could go big game hunting. 

Also, I am probably the least liked person active on this forum.  Why I keep commenting is beyond me some days. So I am pretty sure you don't give two shakes about my opinion.

 

Curley:

 

Pardon the unsolicited advice...but your sense that you are not liked here might be the result of language and attitude.  We place a high value on polite exchanges, and try to avoid insults and name-calling.  Referring to people as "douche bags" will not garner you any respect - especially when you insult every big game hunter and sports car owner when you apply the term as you do.

 

We also have some rules against political discussions - trying to keep the peace.  Injecting nasty nicknames and selfish motivations to the actions of certain elected leaders will also not promote friendly relationships.

 

You're free to do as you please - but you may want to rethink your persona on this site if the game is important to you.  I think everyone here is circumspect in some manner regarding their personal and political views, as part of an effort to stay within the guidelines of The Wire.   

 

LL

 

 

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Guess I am stuck with my 1901 piano, then. All ivory keys. Well, except for the black ones! As far as mounted animal heads on a wall, I guess I am a douche, too, as I have a Bison skull with horns on the wall. I didn't shoot it, my wife hates it, but I like it.

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27 minutes ago, CurlyDrew42 said:

Nice coat!

Yeah I think the mounts are a little douchey, sorry. But Lets face it. Dampnut pushed back that ivory ban so his kids could go big game hunting. 

Also, I am probably the least liked person active on this forum.  Why I keep commenting is beyond me some days. So I am pretty sure you don't give two shakes about my opinion.

You bring it on yourself. 

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1 hour ago, CurlyDrew42 said:

Besides that there are plenty of women out there who have trophy buckles so your point comes off as a little sexist. 

 

I have a question. What made Twelve Mile Reb's point sexist? 

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In slight defense of Curly-- I too have some hunting trophies on my wall and am especially proud of my moose!

However, I will never forget a hunting show I saw when I was a kid ( a long time ago! ).  An "Eddie Bower" style hunter rides in a white jeep out across a vast grassy wilderness, the guide says "We're almost there", they come over a rise and there's a white tiger eating at a bail of what I remember as hay next to a tree in the middle of nothingness. They stop and set up cameras on tri-pods and the "hunter" dude gets out his fancy rifle and leans over the hood and shoot the tiger from about 50 yards. Everybody Yee Haws and they get back in the jeep and leave. Another crew recovers the animal. Exactly where was the skill here? The tiger trusted the humans as they fed him and just stood there eating waiting to be shot and put on someones wall. Just not ethical hunting to me. JMHO

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Just now, Tall Tale Todd said:

 

I have a question. What made Twelve Mile Reb's point sexist? 

 

He indicated that displaying buckles you had won was MANLY. 

 

I'll add on to what loophole larue said.  I don't care for trophies either, but I don't use that sort of language.  If you really think those people are d-bags, then surely you know calling them out as such will just start a fight.  Instead, I just tease them.  "Nice rack, how long do you have to boil those for them to be edible?"

 

 

 

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2 hours ago, CurlyDrew42 said:

Prime example of a jackass who felt the need to show how "manly" he was by displaying his kills.

 

1 minute ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

 

He indicated that displaying buckles you had won was MANLY. 

 

 

I think we can all agree that the concept of "manliness" was originally brought up by the OP. 

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I make pretty much all my antlers into grips of some sort. My hides are tanned and will be made into chaps as soon as I can find the right pattern.  I eat the meat we bring in. 

 

 However I have no problem honoring the animal or the hunt by mounting it.  Do i ever plan on having a one done.  No but thats my personal choice.   I also have a big problem with people wasting the animal.  My dads cousin used to guide in Montana.  The horror stories i heard of trophy hunters just taking the cape and head really tick me off.

 

  I do however have a issue with the fact that I currently have the pieces of a piano that was destroyed by movers that sits in my garage.  I can't even donate the parts to a local charity that

 rebuilds pianos because it has ivory keys. 

 

 

  As for trophy hunters or car guys trying to cover inadequacies, well I'd be a little careful with that brush.  The same has been said many times about guys who own guns... or use low slung electric guitars. 

 

  It's never intelligent to slam someone's views just because they differ from your own

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37 minutes ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

Guess I am stuck with my 1901 piano, then. All ivory keys. Well, except for the black ones! As far as mounted animal heads on a wall, I guess I am a douche, too, as I have a Bison skull with horns on the wall. I didn't shoot it, my wife hates it, but I like it.

 

Good News, Slim!  :)

 

The law has EXCEPTIONS for cases like yours!  ^_^

 

"Limited Exceptions" as follows:

  • Ivory or rhino horn that is part of a bona fide antique (with historical documentation showing the antique is at least 100 years old) provided the item is less than 5 percent ivory or rhino horn by volume;
  • Ivory or rhino horn that is part of a musical instrument (with documentation of pre-1975 construction) provided the instrument contains less than 20 percent ivory or rhino horn by volume

Now all ya gotta do is dig out Great Grandpa's sales receipt and you're good to go!  :lol:

 

 

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56 minutes ago, Springfield Slim SASS #24733 said:

Guess I am stuck with my 1901 piano, then. All ivory keys. Well, except for the black ones! As far as mounted animal heads on a wall, I guess I am a douche, too, as I have a Bison skull with horns on the wall. I didn't shoot it, my wife hates it, but I like it.

You're going to have to show me that bison skull next time I come by.

1 hour ago, Yul Lose said:

My wife and I and many CAS friends enjoyed eating this one. The rest of his hide is a coat that I wear. I’m not rich by any means but I guess to you I’m a “douche bag”? I guess I’ll take that as a compliment. I found the mule deer buck carcass and had a taxadermist do the mount. 

 

 

3154D03E-B1F8-4A07-8979-B6CEC38F2CAB.jpeg

I love the coat!

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1 hour ago, CurlyDrew42 said:

Nice coat!

Yeah I think the mounts are a little douchey, sorry. But Lets face it. Dampnut pushed back that ivory ban so his kids could go big game hunting. 

Also, I am probably the least liked person active on this forum.  Why I keep commenting is beyond me some days. So I am pretty sure you don't give two shakes about my opinion.

YOU, are the one that 'opened' the door, and lit the fire with accusations and far left innuendo. You earned those burns.........

BTW: Your spot on with your last 2 sentences. <_< Especially when you make this type of a remark "Dampnut pushed back that ivory ban so his kids could go big game hunting." WTH are you ranting about now?:wacko:

Carry on-

OLG

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2 hours ago, Eyesa Horg said:

In slight defense of Curly-- I too have some hunting trophies on my wall and am especially proud of my moose!

However, I will never forget a hunting show I saw when I was a kid ( a long time ago! ).  An "Eddie Bower" style hunter rides in a white jeep out across a vast grassy wilderness, the guide says "We're almost there", they come over a rise and there's a white tiger eating at a bail of what I remember as hay next to a tree in the middle of nothingness. They stop and set up cameras on tri-pods and the "hunter" dude gets out his fancy rifle and leans over the hood and shoot the tiger from about 50 yards. Everybody Yee Haws and they get back in the jeep and leave. Another crew recovers the animal. Exactly where was the skill here? The tiger trusted the humans as they fed him and just stood there eating waiting to be shot and put on someones wall. Just not ethical hunting to me. JMHO

 

You are correct about what some hunters did in the past. However, to judge all hunters today by what was done 25, 50, or 100 years ago is wrong. Remember that what was acceptable to society 50 years ago may be considered unacceptable by today's standards. Think of it as holding the son accountable for the sins of his father.

 

Are all hunters today ethical. NO but to stereotype every hunter by the actions of a few is just wrong. It is no different than judging all gun owners, Law Enforcement officers, archers, bikers, fisherman, or any other group by the actions of a few.

 

The animals that are endangered in Africa have become that way because of poaching not legal hunting. The poaching is driven by two very different causes. The first is due to the belief in Asia and a few other places that parts of these animals will increase male virility or cure some ailment. The second is their value as bush meat. 

The solution to the first cause is to crush that particular market but until the governments of the countries that finance this trade take action it is going to be pretty hard to stop.

The bush meat problem is actually harder to solve because there are so many factors that contribute to it.     

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