WTC out of category

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

 

Shooter is signed up in an age based category and for whatever reason pulls both revolvers on a stage and shoots them, one in each hand. Also while doing this, they inadvertently simultaneously discharge a few rounds. What would be the appropriate penalty in this situation?

[Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118]

Procedural 1st stage, stage DQ, 2nd stage, match DQ 3rd stage.

 

TB

[M.T Chambers, SASS#76185]

If they weren't signed up as Senior Gunfighter/BW  it is a Procedural for shooting out of category

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

45 minutes ago, Smokestack said:

Shooter is signed up in an age based category and for whatever reason pulls both revolvers on a stage and shoots them, one in each hand. Also while doing this, they inadvertently simultaneously discharge a few rounds. What would be the appropriate penalty in this situation?

 

Forwarded to the ROC for resolution as to how the "progressive P/SDQ/MDQ" penalty applies in this case of double (actually triple) violation of category regs.

 

PLEASE post this response on any FaceBook duplicate "WtC?" threads.
I'm no longer following all of the related SASS sites there to answer questions.

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

10 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Forwarded to the ROC for resolution as to how the "progressive P/SDQ/MDQ" penalty applies in this case of double (actually triple) violation of category regs.

 

PLEASE post this response on any FaceBook duplicate "WtC?" threads.
I'm no longer following all of the related SASS sites there to answer questions.

Thanks PW. 

I don’t blame you at all. No need for you to run yourself ragged on 12 different pages. 

 

The procedural for for failure to adhere to your category guidelines is a given and would in my understanding be given as soon as a shot was fired with 1 loaded revolvers out of leather. As far as the double discharge, I am not aware of a rule which applies to an age based category which would give a penalty for this. The normal penalty for that if a gunfighter were to do it would be a progressive penalty for failure to adhere to their category guidelines. What is the third violation you have referred to? 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

8 minutes ago, Smokestack said:

Thanks PW. 

I don’t blame you at all. No need for you to run yourself ragged on 12 different pages. 

 

The procedural for for failure to adhere to your category guidelines is a given and would in my understanding be given as soon as a shot was fired with 1 loaded revolvers out of leather. As far as the double discharge, I am not aware of a rule which applies to an age based category which would give a penalty for this. The normal penalty for that if a gunfighter were to do it would be a progressive penalty for failure to adhere to their category guidelines. What is the third violation you have referred to? 

 

1) Two loaded revolvers out.

2) Shooting GF in an age-based category. 

3) Simultaneous discharge. 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

3 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

1) Two loaded revolvers out.

2) Shooting GF in an age-based category. 

3) Simultaneous discharge. 

with all due respect; in the described circumstance; so called violation two is a continuation of violation one and (Imo) is not considered a separate additional violation.

"The" penalty for shooting out of category was earned as soon as the two pistols were pulled; the admonition of "don't be a hardass" should address any desire to stack penalties for the same infraction.

Since the shooter is technically shooting GF category for this stage; they are subject to gf rules... But since they have already earned their "P" for the stage, any simultaneous discharges are meaningless.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

The issue is whether multiple "progressive" penalties may be earned on a single stage; or if only a single "failure to adhere to the guidelines of the category" penalty applies.

Granted, only one "P" may be assessed per stage, but the question is in regard to a 2nd violation which, if committed on another stage would then be a SDQ.

Two loaded revolvers out at once (correctable before firing COCKING one or the other) is a separate infraction from actually shooting GF-style...IMO.

Shooting "SIMO" is an additional violation when shooting GF-style.

I'm not proposing that the penalties be "stacked" for the multiple violations; but am taking it to the ROC for a definitive ruling on a situation that is not covered under written rule.

 

 

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

so, it is official that two loaded revolvers out at once for someone other than a gunfighter style shooter, may be corrected before a revolver is fired?  and if so, does it apply if someone shoots 4 and pulls the second revolver but holsters one before firing?

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

36 minutes ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

so, it is official that two loaded revolvers out at once for someone other than a gunfighter style shooter, may be corrected before a revolver is fired COCKED?  and if so, does it apply if someone shoots 4 and pulls the second revolver but holsters one before firing?

 

Yes, that is correctable before COCKING either revolver.

REF: WINTER RANGE TG 2017 MEETING

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

1 hour ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

so, it is official that two loaded revolvers out at once for someone other than a gunfighter style shooter, may be corrected before a revolver is fired?  and if so, does it apply if someone shoots 4 and pulls the second revolver but holsters one before firing?

I would assume this would normally be an incident of one shooting double duelist.  Under heading of "been there done that", any fairly competitive DD will have already cocked second revolver before hearing the shout of "one left in 1st gun".   In my case, second was drawn as first was being holstered so for that mill-second  before first gun was in holster earned me a P for shooting out of category/two loaded revolvers out at same time.  I am reading that a question has surfaced in OP situation that perhaps two Ps are earned.... for out of category and two loaded guns out at same time.  I'm with Creeker that both errors are within same P (GF/BW/two loaded guns out at same time).  Am I misreading something here.

 

CC, I am with you that if second gun is not cocked and first is holstered, not still in hand,  then second can go back to holster, first drawn, fired, and on with second for no P. 

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

51 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Yes, that is correctable before COCKING either revolver.

REF: WINTER RANGE TG 2017 MEETING

thank you,,, but why just cocked? In other instances you have the opportunity to "fix" something before the next firearm is fired...

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

8 minutes ago, Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator said:

I would assume this would normally be an incident of one shooting double duelist.  Under heading of "been there done that", any fairly competitive DD will have already cocked second revolver before hearing the shout of "one left in 1st gun".   In my case, second was drawn as first was being holstered so for that mill-second  before first gun was in holster earned me a P for shooting out of category/two loaded revolvers out at same time.  I am reading that a question has surfaced in OP situation that perhaps two Ps are earned.... for out of category and two loaded guns out at same time.  I'm with Creeker that both errors are within same P (GF/BW/two loaded guns out at same time).  Am I misreading something here.

 

CC, I am with you that if second gun is not cocked and first is holstered, not still in hand,  then second can go back to holster, first drawn, fired, and on with second for no P. 

why not either revolver?  as long as two loaded aren't out at the time of firing?

[Ramblin Gambler]

1 hour ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

thank you,,, but why just cocked? In other instances you have the opportunity to "fix" something before the next firearm is fired...

 

I think that's because once a revolver is cocked, you can't put it back up without firing it (without getting an automatic SDQ). 

[Ramblin Gambler]

1 hour ago, Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator said:

I would assume this would normally be an incident of one shooting double duelist.  Under heading of "been there done that", any fairly competitive DD will have already cocked second revolver before hearing the shout of "one left in 1st gun".   In my case, second was drawn as first was being holstered so for that mill-second  before first gun was in holster earned me a P for shooting out of category/two loaded revolvers out at same time.  I am reading that a question has surfaced in OP situation that perhaps two Ps are earned.... for out of category and two loaded guns out at same time.  I'm with Creeker that both errors are within same P (GF/BW/two loaded guns out at same time).  Am I misreading something here.

 

CC, I am with you that if second gun is not cocked and first is holstered, not still in hand,  then second can go back to holster, first drawn, fired, and on with second for no P. 

 

If a 2 handed shooter fires 4 and reholsters, they can draw the first pistol and finish when the second one is empty.  In the case of a double duelist, as long as you're holstering that first revolver you should be able to do the same.  Some DDs hold onto that first gun in some circumstances and I think those are the cases where you'd get a penalty for having 2 loaded revolvers out.  I don't think there are many TOs whose eyes are calibrated to the microsecond where they can catch that millisecond you might or might not have had 2 loaded pistols out if you're reholstering it. 

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

1 hour ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

 

I think that's because once a revolver is cocked, you can't put it back up without firing it (without getting an automatic SDQ). 

exactly...and that was my case...second was up and cocked and one round still in 1st.  Been several years ago, but as I remember I had holstered 1st so in the heat of moment redrawed it firing 5th round....here the infraction took place for in that moment of firing 5th round from 1st (right hand) with second revolver in left hand cocked, I became a GF rather than FCD.  IF I had done as CC suggests, left 1st revolver holstered until finished with second, then re-drawn 1st and fired I would have not gotten P, just time of thought process and react time.  (Heck, In hind sight,  should have just took the miss of one round in holstered, 1st revolver.)

 

If I had still had 1st gun in right hand with one round left and second in left hand cocked I would be GF and have had two loaded revolvers out at same time.. From what I am reading here, there is consideration that I would have then had two separate violations, one for shooting out of category and one for two loaded revolvers out at same time. 

 

Sorry from straying a little from Smokestack's OP but my case was similar thus worth some merit in this thread.  OP's had additional infraction of  double discharge.

[Chuckaroo #13080 Regulator]

Stage descriptions that say with your 1st pistol, shoot said targets in said order, and with your second pistol, shoot said targets in said order. If these were the instructions, then shooting four in one pistol and going back later to finish the 1st string would be a P.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

22 minutes ago, Chuckaroo #13080 Regulator said:

Stage descriptions that say with your 1st pistol, shoot said targets in said order, and with your second pistol, shoot said targets in said order. If these were the instructions, then shooting four in one pistol and going back later to finish the 1st string would be a P.

no,,, what wud a gf do in those  instances,,,  first 5 shots,,, then second five shots  no P,, and applies to all 

[Juiceharp Jen]

Regarding firing 4 rounds and holstering, isn't that a SDQ?  Page 22 of the handbooks says:

 

• Holstering or staging a revolver with the hammer down on a live round. 

[Chuckaroo #13080 Regulator]

It is meant for Dueilst, Double Duelist. The OP was not a registered Gunfighter.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

Jen,,, when you shoot 4 and put it away, it is down on a fired cartridge, no foul unless you don't go ahead and shoot it, if not it is a miss only

 

[Juiceharp Jen]

2 minutes ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

Jen,,, when you shoot 4 and put it away, it is down on a fired cartridge, no foul unless you don't go ahead and shoot it, if not it is a miss only

 

 

I see that now.  Thanks.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

11 minutes ago, Chuckaroo #13080 Regulator said:

It is meant for Dueilst, Double Duelist. The OP was not a registered Gunfighter.

it is for all shooters,,, first five shots, second 5 shots,,  unless it is specified you must  must do it that way,,,  old school

[Chuckaroo #13080 Regulator]

Well we still use old school in these parts on occasion.  Following stage instructions is part of the game.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

2 hours ago, Chuckaroo #13080 Regulator said:

Well we still use old school in these parts on occasion.  Following stage instructions is part of the game.

you are handicapping your shooters then,,, and penalizing them needlessly

 

[Chuckaroo #13080 Regulator]

Well after 20 years, 1,152 stages and no complaints, I think we are doing just fine thank you.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Just now, Chuckaroo #13080 Regulator said:

Well after 20 years, 1,152 stages and no complaints, I think we are doing just fine thank you.

If you are writing stages, "first pistol- second pistol" and holding shooters to those specific instructions (which would disallow gunfighters altogether)...

You are most assuredly NOT doing just fine.

 

Per SASS rules; the rounds from pistols  are shooting string which consists of x number of rounds.  There is no enforceable first pistol/ second pistol requirement.  

 

And just like bragging about the number of digits in ones SASS number; the number of stages written over a CAS career has little bearing on their correctness.

 

And I have written a stage or thousand myself as well.

[Chuckaroo #13080 Regulator]

At this point the best thing for me to do is not respond at all. 

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

2 hours ago, Chuckaroo #13080 Regulator said:

Well after 20 years, 1,152 stages and no complaints, I think we are doing just fine thank you.

20 years with no complaints is nothing short of miraculous.  Congratulations. 

[CodyMaverick]

13 hours ago, Chuckaroo #13080 Regulator said:

At this point the best thing for me to do is not respond at all. 

 

LOL!

 

"what we've got here, is failure to communicate"

 

Please respond to whatever, whenever the mood strikes you.

 

As I interpreted your original scenario, a 'P' would be earned by anyone shooter doing what you described regardless of category or shooting style.  If I'm right then Cheyenne just missed that when he read it and began his argument.

[Billy Boots, # 20282 LTG-Regulator]

First...I am not trying to be a smartxxx here, but in following this thread which perhaps has strayed a tad from OP's original post (I have done my part in this).  In stage writing, and I have written my share, should it not be wise to say "with first five shots" rather than first revolver...then with next five rounds, rather than second revolver.  In this manner, everyone is covered as GFs  are per their category rules, AND this makes redrawing the holstered gun with one round unfired, a doable act without penalty (assuming the firing of this unfired round is done per other rules safety and of category).

Example in stage....with first revolver shoot Nevada sweep on three targets starting on left, second revolver Nevada sweep from right.....correct writing by simply saying Nevada sweep from left WITH FIRST FIVE ROUNDS THEN FROM RIGHT WITH NEXT FIVE ROUNDS. 

Make sense?

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

2 hours ago, CodyMaverick said:

 

LOL!

 

"what we've got here, is failure to communicate"

 

Please respond to whatever, whenever the mood strikes you.

 

As I interpreted your original scenario, a 'P' would be earned by anyone shooter doing what you described regardless of category or shooting style.  If I'm right then Cheyenne just missed that when he read it and began his argument.

no I din't miss that,, I replied as it morphed...

[Assassin]

20 years ago we would just allow the shooter to switch categories without accessing a penalty. Only, if it was their first stage of the match.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

On ‎11‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 5:42 PM, Smokestack said:

 

Shooter is signed up in an age based category and for whatever reason pulls both revolvers on a stage and shoots them, one in each hand. Also while doing this, they inadvertently simultaneously discharge a few rounds. What would be the appropriate penalty in this situation?

 

On ‎11‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 6:19 PM, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Forwarded to the ROC for resolution as to how the "progressive P/SDQ/MDQ" penalty applies in this case of double (actually triple) violation of category regs.

 

PLEASE post this response on any FaceBook duplicate "WtC?" threads.
I'm no longer following all of the related SASS sites there to answer questions.

 

ROC ruling on the OP:

Shooter is assessed ONE PROCEDURAL for "failure to adhere to the guidelines of the category..."

[Ramblin Gambler]

20 hours ago, Chuckaroo #13080 Regulator said:

Well we still use old school in these parts on occasion.  Following stage instructions is part of the game.

 

If that's the way you interpret it, it's still possible to get away without a P if you shoot 4, holster, shoot 5, then go back and shoot the last one.  You just have to interrupt the string.  So for instance if you were supposed to do identical sweeps with each pistol.  When the shooter pulls the second pistol, if he just starts on that second sweep instead of finishing the first one, when he realizes he didn't shoot the 5th round, he can go back and finish the first sweep.  For most other clubs, that would be a P, but it sounds like at your club that's how you'd wanna do it.