decocking

[Hoss]

recent match a shooter cocked his pistol after firing 5. He realized it as soon as he cocked it. more or les simultaneously at the same time I noticed. I told him "cocked pistol" pull the trigger. He pulled the trigger but more or less rode the hammer down with his thumb on his off hand.  I reminded him that he should have just pulled the trigger. I gave him the benefit of the doubt as 1) he was more or less under my orders to decock and 2) he kinda sorta just pulled the trigger, even though he also rode the hammer down with his thumb. I felt OK with the call. Later it the match he did the same thing, but this time, again under my order, decocked, rode the hammer about 1/2  down, then let it fall.

 

I felt like either time I could have called the penalty for decocking, but did not.  At all times I was fully aware of what was going on, and at not time was 170 broken or even in jeopardy, and no other safety rules were broken. What would you have done.

[Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L]

Same as you did.

[Null N. Void]

If the gun went bang 5 times there is no round in the gun that can go off.   They are lowering the hammer on an empty chamber or a spent round.  No call even if they don't ask permission to decock.  I believe the decock rule is only in effect if there are live rounds in the firearm.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

After he's fired 5 rounds, I'm sure not going to be real picky.  As long as hammer is fully down, he's not got a live round under it anyway.   Work with that shooter to NEVER retain the hammer with his thumb except at the loading table. 

 

Good luck, GJ

[Marauder SASS #13056]

Since he did it twice, remind him to practice properly "dropping the hammer" so he will not have an issue later. 

 

What he did was a learned behavior that is proper in some circumstances, but not at a match.

[Turquoise Bill, SASS #39118]

Yup, you guys are right, warned once, at a large match could incur a SDQ.

 

At a annual match recently I had a shooter called for lowering the hammer with his thumb on the ghost 6th round, he got a SDQ. Ruling from newest shooters' handbook:

Yes, he had fired 5 rounds from the revolver in question, I was the TO, a spotter made the call.

Page 27:

STAGE DISQUALIFICATION PENALTY (SDQ) A Stage Disqualification (SDQ or “Stage DQ”) is generally a safety violation of a more serious nature, and means the competitor’s time and performance on the course of fire is disqualified as a result of the violating action by the shooter.

- De-cocking a revolver, rifle, or hammered shotgun without positive direction to do so from the CRO/TO.

 

TB

[Yusta B.]

1 hour ago, Null N. Void said:

If the gun went bang 5 times there is no round in the gun that can go off.   

99% of the time this will be true. I believe that the rule to have a full hammer fall in to insure as far as possible that's it 100 percent.

[Volga Vigilante]

If the shooter rode the hammer down, should the TO have the shooter cock and fire the gun again to verify on an empty or fired round?

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

I do understand that none of us like to apply penalties. But you have to remember you are not "giving" anyone a penalty. You are either applying the penalty when it's earned or you aren't. How the TO delivers that news is the difference between being a hardass and making it a teachable experience. A even consistent application of the rules is THE best thing we can all do in this game. It's all we really have to hang our hats on. Just my thoughts of course. 
:

[Null N. Void]

I had the same situation when I was running the timer in that the shooter road the hammer down instead of releasing it after he had cocked it the sixth time.  I stopped him from holstering the revolver, had him point it downrange, cock it and pull the trigger, then continue to holster.  I was told by the Match Director that that was not necessary as the pistol had expended all 5 rounds.   I'm getting two interpretations, and I would like to hear from PWB which one is correct.

[El Hombre]

All good

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

19 minutes ago, Null N. Void said:

I had the same situation when I was running the timer in that the shooter road the hammer down instead of releasing it after he had cocked it the sixth time.  I stopped him from holstering the revolver, had him point it downrange, cock it and pull the trigger, then continue to holster.  I was told by the Match Director that that was not necessary as the pistol had expended all 5 rounds.   I'm getting two interpretations, and I would like to hear from PWB which one is correct.

Refer to Turquoise Bill's post for the rule. This has been clarified by PWB many times. Once the pistol is holstered, the SDQ is earned even if the TO tells the shooter to pull the pistol and say the word, "de-cock."

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

PS The following was a clarification by PWB about a GF question. IIUC, it applies here too.

ROC additional clarifications related to the application of the recently clarified definition of "HOLSTERED":

"...as soon as the muzzle ENTERS the mouth of the holster, the revolver is no longer "in hand" and is now HOLSTERED ..."

The "holstered" cocked gun is subject to a SDQ regardless of fired or unfired rounds and which the hammer is down on.

[Ramblin Gambler]

2 hours ago, Volga Vigilante said:

If the shooter rode the hammer down, should the TO have the shooter cock and fire the gun again to verify on an empty or fired round?

 

This is what I was thinking.  I know 99% of the time there's only 5 rounds in the revolver.  But people do overload sometimes, and if someone has overloaded, that chamber that the hammer is now resting on is the one where the extra round went. 

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

if the shooter decocks without permission it is a sdq,,, period, no caveats....  the shooter does not have to ask permission to pull the trigger if he cocked it a sixth, 7th or 8th times that is without riding the hammer down and thus de-cocking

 

[Null N. Void]

Allie,

 

I stopped him from getting the revolver into the top of the holster.  Therefore, it was never holstered but the hammer was down because he had lowered the hammer with his thumb after 5 shots had clearly gone off.  I told the shooter to aim the revolver down range, cock and pull the trigger which made sure the hammer was down on either a spent cartridge or empty chamber.  The MD told me that I shouldn't have done that because his revolver was  already safe to holster.  That's the clarification I'm looking for.  Either I was correct to do that or he was safe by the rules and I shouldn't have said anything..

 

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

holstering in this instance has nothing to do with it,,, did the shooter de-cock without permission,,,?  yes? sdq right then,,,, 

[Null N. Void]

Allie referred to holstering and that's not what happened with me.  The shooter's revolver never made it that far.

 

What  Cheyenne Culpepper is discussing is the clarification I want.   I was told it's not a penalty if the shooter drops the hammer with his thumb on a revolver with no live rounds in it.  If that is a SDQ, I wan't to be clear that that's the official policy.  As I remember, I was told by a MD who is also a TG that's it's not a penalty.

 

I totally agree with decocking without TO permission on a live round earns a SDQ.  This is something different.

[Cinch]

I have always wanted to run the timer for my nearest competitor, have him shoot his shotgun then move to the staged rifle where he has a brain fade and pulls and cocks his revolver. Now I got him! I wait for 2 minutes before giving permission to de-cock... 

[Silver Rings SASS # 27466]

How is a pistol decocked? By pulling the trigger while riding the hammer down. To me sounds like this is what the shooter did.   SDQ.

 

SR

[Yusta B.]

1 hour ago, Silver Rings SASS # 27466 said:

How is a pistol decocked? By pulling the trigger while riding the hammer down. To me sounds like this is what the shooter did.   SDQ.

 

SR

De-cocking should be done with a full cock hammer fall in this case.

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

2 hours ago, Cinch said:

I have always wanted to run the timer for my nearest competitor, have him shoot his shotgun then move to the staged rifle where he has a brain fade and pulls and cocks his revolver. Now I got him! I wait for 2 minutes before giving permission to de-cock... 

It wouldn’t matter how long you waited, giving permission to de cock would not even be an option in that situation.  

[Ace_of_Hearts]

10 hours ago, Null N. Void said:

If the gun went bang 5 times there is no round in the gun that can go off.   They are lowering the hammer on an empty chamber or a spent round.  No call even if they don't ask permission to decock.  I believe the decock rule is only in effect if there are live rounds in the firearm.

You are incorrect. 

There is no provision on the firing line for assuming a revolver is empty.

 

In the case of the original post, I would probably take the shooter aside and explain to him that what he/she did was improper. In the future he should point the gun down range and pull the trigger, which does not require the permission or direction of the Timing Operator to do.

 

Page 14 of the shooters manual is clear that the Timing Operator can only direct the shooter to de-cock a revolver if a round has not gone down range.

No firearm may be de-cocked on the firing line to avoid a penalty if cocked at the wrong time, position or location once a round has gone downrange. Once a revolver is cocked, the round must be expended (shot). However, if a round has not gone downrange, and under the direction and supervision of the CRO/TO, the revolver may be decocked. This requires a positive indication/acknowledgement from the TO for the shooter to do so. (See also “Double Jeopardy” avoidance in Safety & Handing Conventions – All Firearms) - When drawing a Revolver from its holster, the revolver may not be cocked until it is pointed safely downrange (at a 45° angle downrange). 

 

The only reasonably sure method of assuring that the hammer is down on an empty or fired cartridge is to pull the trigger with the gun at full cock.

Cocking the revolver again and pulling the trigger does not negate the penalty already earned.

 

 

 

 

[Cinch]

1 minute ago, Smokestack said:

It wouldn’t matter how long you waited, giving permission to device would not even be an option in that situation.  

 

I would call from the hotel on some "device" and tell them to go ahead and shoot and take the P  (smiley again) <<<<< right there

[Waimea]

2 hours ago, Cinch said:

I have always wanted to run the timer for my nearest competitor, have him shoot his shotgun then move to the staged rifle where he has a brain fade and pulls and cocks his revolver. Now I got him! I wait for 2 minutes before giving permission to de-cock... 

 

Pure EVIL!!!

 

 

Waimea

[Arcadia Outlaw, SASS 71385]

6 hours ago, Null N. Void said:

Allie,

 

I stopped him from getting the revolver into the top of the holster.  Therefore, it was never holstered but the hammer was down because he had lowered the hammer with his thumb after 5 shots had clearly gone off.  I told the shooter to aim the revolver down range, cock and pull the trigger which made sure the hammer was down on either a spent cartridge or empty chamber.  The MD told me that I shouldn't have done that because his revolver was  already safe to holster.  That's the clarification I'm looking for.  Either I was correct to do that or he was safe by the rules and I shouldn't have said anything..

 

The MD needs to read the rule book, the rule book doesn't say it's ok to decock  if you fired  5rds , now you and the shooter are confused on the rules , MD might think about taking a refresher course. 

 

AO

[Abe E.S. Corpus SASS #87667]

The SDQ for decocking is something I try to tell new shooters about, because as someone already pointed out, a non-cowboy shooter would likely decock a revolver if they were not planning to loose a round downrange.  Add to that a new shooter’s tendency to lose count while shooting and cock the revolver after firing five rounds.

 

I tell them that the sixth cock is not a problem, not a penalty.  When it happens, point the gun downrange and pull the trigger.  You need not ask permission or pause, just snap it and reholster.

 

My goal is to never have a shooter incur this penalty while I am running the timer.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

What if he had loaded 6 rnds buy mistake?

First time, a pass(maybe). 2nd time, full penalty.

OLG

[Silver Rings SASS # 27466]

9 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

What if he had loaded 6 rnds buy mistake?

First time, a pass(maybe). 2nd time, full penalty.

OLG

If 6 RDS were loaded, it was a SDQ as soon as he leaves the loading table, because of hammer down on a loaded Rd.

 

SR

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

4 minutes ago, Silver Rings SASS # 27466 said:

If 6 RDS were loaded, it was a SDQ as soon as he leaves the loading table, because of hammer down on a loaded Rd.

 

SR

 

Yup-But the lowered hammer after decoking on the firing line has return'd the hammer to a live rnd, instead of sending it down range.

OLG

[Silver Rings SASS # 27466]

If he loaded 6 RDS, that earned the first SDQ, if he lowers the hammer on a live Rd, that is his second SDQ and his MDQ.

 

SR

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

We call that here as the 'double-duce'.

Had to give that type of call a couple of times, over the years.

OLG

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

7 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

What if he had loaded 6 rnds buy mistake?

First time, a pass(maybe). 2nd time, full penalty.

OLG

nope no pass,,,, will be a lesson learned and hopefully not forgotten,,, although I have never seen or heard of that happening

[Bart Solo]

This is the kind of infraction that is mostly committed by a new shooter who probably thinks it is safer to decock than just pull the trigger.   If it happens the stage DQ should be enforced without any discussion.   That is the best way for a shooter to learn and avoid making the mistake again.  I would rather the shooter be penalized at a monthly and learn the rule than later at a big match.  That is why I don't like monthly matches where TOs and MDs give new shooters breaks because they are new.  . 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

36 minutes ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

nope no pass,,,, will be a lesson learned and hopefully not forgotten,,, although I have never seen or heard of that happening

Agree on the overload deal-I put that as a would/could-have-happened.

I have seen the 6 rnd deal a couple of times. Both times, the LT was clearly not ck'n the gunz.

OLG