Clarification of rule-need help

[NannyOakley]

Territorial Governors Meeting Minutes (Winter Range – 2017) Thursday, 23 February 2017, 5:45PM WR Main Tent:

11) Question from the floor: When is the penalty earned in the situation where a cocked revolver is holstered? ROC Reply: When hand is off the gun. (Answer was researched in current ROC clarifications and discussions). When a cocked revolver is holstered, and the shooter removes their hand from the grip, the appropriate penalty will apply (can’t be rectified). Whether there is a live round, empty casing or empty chamber is below the cocked hammer is irrelevant – it is the cocked revolver which earns the penalty – SDQ

[Kirk James]

If the shooter holsters a revolver after firing four rounds, isn't the shooter allowed to draw and shoot the fifth round, whether the hand leaves the revolver or not, as long as they have not fired the next rifle or shotgun?  This would only apply if it was not holstered on 1/2 cock or cocked.  

[Yusta B.]

11 minutes ago, Kirk James said:

If the shooter holsters a revolver after firing four rounds, isn't the shooter allowed to draw and shoot the fifth round, whether the hand leaves the revolver or not, as long as they have not fired the next rifle or shotgun?  This would only apply if it was not holstered on 1/2 cock or cocked.  

Absolutely. As long as not shooting GF.

[Rancho Roy]

2 hours ago, NannyOakley said:

Also if revolver is discovered to contain a live round at the unloading table, that WAS NOT under the hammer, it's a miss, not a MS, not a SDQ. 

 

Thanks Nanny.....I’ve witnessed this penalty applied erroneously at least two times at big matches. One match it was the difference between a shooter getting a plaque and not. I mentioned it to the shooter and he inquired and the penalty was reversed.

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

5 hours ago, Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217 said:

I didn't notice if this got clarified. Following is what PWB recently, in June 2017, posted in a discussion about GF style. It applies to any shooting style.

 

"...as soon as the muzzle ENTERS the mouth of the holster, the revolver is no longer "in hand" and is now HOLSTERED as far as GF rules are concerned." 

 

That was a clarification regarding a GF-style shooter holstering revolvers "with the intent to engage another sequence" (e.g. while moving to another shooting location for the 2nd five shots in a 10-shot shooting string split into two locations).

 

Here is the complete text of that GUNFIGHTER-STYLE clarification:

ROC additional clarifications related to the application of the recently clarified definition of "HOLSTERED":

"...as soon as the muzzle ENTERS the mouth of the holster, the revolver is no longer "in hand" and is now HOLSTERED as far as GF rules are concerned."

** A GUNFIGHTER is allowed to correct the situation with NO PENALTY as long as the revolvers are "out of leather" before changing location or firing another firearm during stage engagement if revolver(s) are "holstered" after firing the first 5 rounds.

 

The "HOLSTERED" definition also applies to the following STAGE DQ violations for ALL categories:

 Returning a revolver to leather with hammer not fully down on spent round or empty chamber.  

...

Holstering or staging a revolver with the hammer down on a live round.

 

** Any shooter (in any category) attempting to holster a cocked revolver is also allowed to "undo" any penalty for doing so by SAFELY drawing the revolver (before letting go of it), pointing it safely downrange, and either pulling the trigger to drop the hammer or de-cocking under the direct supervision of the T/O. 

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

15 hours ago, Yusta B. said:

Absolutely. As long as not shooting GF.

no,,,,, gf cant do it purposely,,,  no call if a mistake,,,

[Allie Mo, SASS No. 25217]

16 hours ago, NannyOakley said:

Territorial Governors Meeting Minutes (Winter Range – 2017) Thursday, 23 February 2017, 5:45PM WR Main Tent:

11) Question from the floor: When is the penalty earned in the situation where a cocked revolver is holstered? ROC Reply: When hand is off the gun. (Answer was researched in current ROC clarifications and discussions). When a cocked revolver is holstered, and the shooter removes their hand from the grip, the appropriate penalty will apply (can’t be rectified). Whether there is a live round, empty casing or empty chamber is below the cocked hammer is irrelevant – it is the cocked revolver which earns the penalty – SDQ

 

11 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

That was a clarification regarding a GF-style shooter holstering revolvers "with the intent to engage another sequence" (e.g. while moving to another shooting location for the 2nd five shots in a 10-shot shooting string split into two locations).

 

Here is the complete text of that GUNFIGHTER-STYLE clarification:

ROC additional clarifications related to the application of the recently clarified definition of "HOLSTERED":

"...as soon as the muzzle ENTERS the mouth of the holster, the revolver is no longer "in hand" and is now HOLSTERED as far as GF rules are concerned."

** A GUNFIGHTER is allowed to correct the situation with NO PENALTY as long as the revolvers are "out of leather" before changing location or firing another firearm during stage engagement if revolver(s) are "holstered" after firing the first 5 rounds.

 

The "HOLSTERED" definition also applies to the following STAGE DQ violations for ALL categories:

 Returning a revolver to leather with hammer not fully down on spent round or empty chamber.  

...

Holstering or staging a revolver with the hammer down on a live round.

 

** Any shooter (in any category) attempting to holster a cocked revolver is also allowed to "undo" any penalty for doing so by SAFELY drawing the revolver (before letting go of it), pointing it safely downrange, and either pulling the trigger to drop the hammer or de-cocking under the direct supervision of the T/O. 

 

Let me see if I have this straight for all categories. Please advise.

 

Holstering for the purpose of assigning a penalty for hammer not fully down on a spent case or empty chamber is when the muzzle enters the holster.

 

Yet, holstering for the purpose of assigning a penalty for holstering a cocked gun is when the shooter releases their hand from the gun.

 

If my understanding is correct, it seems very confusing to differentiate the definition of holstered in those two situations. I would respectfully request that the ROC consider using the same definition of holstered for both.

 

Sincerely,

 

Allie Mo

 

PS The definition of holstered I think would be the most memorable (and lead to consistent application) is when the grip is released by the shooter.

 

PPS As both or your posts were colorful, mine just faded. So, I thought I'd use color too.

 

 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

The definition regarding "holstered" isn't really different for the two situations.

The GF rule applies to the prohibition re "holstering with intent...", whether the GF relinquishes control of the revolver grips or not.

The penalty for "holstering a cocked revolver" is actually the SDQ for a "cocked revolver leaving the shooter's hands".

The ** sections note those point(s) at which the penalties apply (point of no return); as well as how the "holstering" may be safely reversed without penalty.

 

[Ramblin Gambler]

There is a penalty for cocking the revolver before it gets to at least 45 degrees downrange (MSV).  Wouldn't that penalty apply if you were returning a cocked revolver to it's holster even if you stopped just before it met the definition of holstered? 

 

Allie, I think a "cocked gun" is a subset of "hammer not fully down on a spent case or empty chamber"  So there's still some confusion. At least, there was before palewolf's last response. 

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

10 minutes ago, Ramblin Gambler said:

There is a penalty for cocking the revolver before it gets to at least 45 degrees downrange (MSV).  Wouldn't that penalty apply if you were returning a cocked revolver to it's holster even if you stopped just before it met the definition of holstered? 

 

Allie, I think a "cocked gun" is a subset of "hammer not fully down on a spent case or empty chamber"  So there's still some confusion. At least, there was before palewolf's last response. 

 

NO...the 45° rule very specifically applies to drawing a revolver FROM the holster.

 

Quote

When drawing a Revolver from its holster, the revolver may not be cocked until it is pointed safely downrange (at a 45° angle downrange).

SHB p.14

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

There is also the "catch all" penalty of a SDQ for "any unsafe firearm handling" in event that a shooter doesn't rectify any of those situations in a SAFE manner.

(e.g. dropping the hammer on a cocked revolver while it is IN the holster) 

[Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903]

9 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

There is also the "catch all" penalty of a SDQ for "any unsafe firearm handling" in event that a shooter doesn't rectify any of those situations in a SAFE manner.

(e.g. dropping the hammer on a cocked revolver while it is IN the holster) 

If I'm not wrong this could also result in a MDQ if the shooter holstered and let go of a cocked revolver (SDQ), realizes it's cocked and reaches down an decocks it in the holster (SDQ), 2 SDQ's=MDQ.

 

Randy

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

had a woman holster a cocked gun,, I was able to stop her before she let go, and told her it was cocked,,, she pulled the trigger!,,,  let it go, but followed her to the unloading table and asked her what would have happened had it had a round in it,,,,, she turned white as snow....

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

11 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

There is also the "catch all" penalty of a SDQ for "any unsafe firearm handling" in event that a shooter doesn't rectify any of those situations in a SAFE manner.

(e.g. dropping the hammer on a cocked revolver while it is IN the holster) 

 

1 hour ago, Randy Saint Eagle, SASS # 64903 said:

If I'm not wrong this could also result in a MDQ if the shooter holstered and let go of a cocked revolver (SDQ), realizes it's cocked and reaches down an decocks it in the holster (SDQ), 2 SDQ's=MDQ.

 

Randy

 

That would be correct.

[Roger Rapid]

So, further on this FTF issue, it is my understanding that after discovering an FTF, a shooter can load a sixth round and cycle and fire the pistol without penalty*. While an unfired round will be discovered at the unloading table, five rounds were successfully fired and the hammer ended up on a discharged round. No miss or safety penalty.

 

*I'm not arguing the "how-long-it-takes" issue - assume for this argument that its the shooter's last stage and he/she is clean to this point and wants to end up clean.

 

Correct?

RR

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

5 hours ago, Roger Rapid said:

So, further on this FTF issue, it is my understanding that after discovering an FTF, a shooter can load a sixth round and cycle and fire the pistol without penalty*. While an unfired round will be discovered at the unloading table, five rounds were successfully fired and the hammer ended up on a discharged round. No miss or safety penalty.

 

*I'm not arguing the "how-long-it-takes" issue - assume for this argument that its the shooter's last stage and he/she is clean to this point and wants to end up clean.

 

Correct?

RR

 

YES...as long as the targets were HIT in the correct manner.

REF: "SHOOTER'S CHOICE" p.2

[Kirk James]

And so the discussion continues......  Discussion at today's match.  Shooter shoots 4 out of 1st revolver, shoots 5 out of 2nd revolver; can the shooter draw the 1st revolver and shoot the final round w/o penalty?  

[Ace_of_Hearts]

3 minutes ago, Kirk James said:

And so the discussion continues......  Discussion at today's match.  Shooter shoots 4 out of 1st revolver, shoots 5 out of 2nd revolver; can the shooter draw the 1st revolver and shoot the final round w/o penalty?  

Yes, as long as the shooter is not shooting Gunfighter style (He would have earned a penalty upon holstering) and the hammer is not down on a live round.

[Kirk James]

Thanks Ace of Hearts.  Got a little confusing with addressing GF and other categories together.  Like Allie said, this is a lot to take in.

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

59 minutes ago, Ace_of_Hearts said:

Yes, as long as the shooter is not shooting Gunfighter style (He would have earned a penalty upon holstering) and the hammer is not down on a live round.

no,, he didnt intentionally holster with plans of using it later,,, therefore no call

[Roger Rapid]

Some clarification, please...

 

Why can't a GF holster and then retrieve a [non-cocked] pistol, while other styles can (or am I misreading something)?

 

.RR

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

36 minutes ago, Roger Rapid said:

Some clarification, please...

 

Why can't a GF holster and then retrieve a [non-cocked] pistol, while other styles can (or am I misreading something)?

 

.RR

 

The GF rule applies to the prohibition re "holstering with intent...", whether the GF relinquishes control of the revolver grips or not.

...

** A GUNFIGHTER is allowed to correct the situation with NO PENALTY as long as the revolvers are "out of leather" before changing location or firing another firearm during stage engagement if revolver(s) are "holstered" after firing the first 5 rounds.

[Roger Rapid]

PWB - thx... but I'm still having problem with this.

 

Sounds like a contradiction of terms:  How can the " revolvers [be] out of leather" if they are "holstered after firing first 5 rounds?"

 

Can you describe this in an exemplary situation?

 

..RR

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

11 hours ago, Roger Rapid said:

PWB - thx... but I'm still having problem with this.

 

Sounds like a contradiction of terms:  How can the " revolvers [be] out of leather" if they are "holstered after firing first 5 rounds?"

 

Can you describe this in an exemplary situation?

 

..RR

 

Stage has two revolver firing locations 15 feet apart. Start at A, then move to B . Five shots are to be fired from each.

 

Gunfighter pulls both revolvers @ A; fires 5 shots; then  HOLSTERS both revolvers before moving to B.

(with the INTENT to move to B with them HOLSTERED instead of "in hand")

The GF-style shooter MUST have the muzzles UN-HOLSTERED/OUT OF LEATHER before changing location or be assessed the progressive P/SDQ/MDQ penalty for "failure to adhere to the guidelines of the category".

 

The GF may "undo" that penalty by RE-DRAWING both revolvers before moving to the second position.

 

 

 

[Roger Rapid]

PaleWold Brunelle...

 

Ah ha - PERFECT - thank you! 

 

I failed to catch that shooter was moving to another position between the 5 shots.

 

THANKS!!!!

 

RR

[Kirk James]

This may help with the clarification of a discarded rifle and if you can correct prior to firing the next firearm.

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

 Asked this question one time, noted with shooter handling malfunction firearms. I'll ask it again, shooter has a pistol malfunction, hammer cocked and won't let down, he/she declares same and continues. stage. Comes back to cocked malfunction pistol and holsters same since shooter handles malfunction firearms only. Goes to unloading table carrying his long guns. Penalty for cocked, declared pistol, holstered cocked and very good chance there's a live round under cocked hammer?  Or no penalty since it was declared malfunction?   MT

[Kingsley]

Lets fill in the blanks on this one Marshall.  The shooter in question was me.  Yes the gun malfunctioned, I knew what the malfunction was (after it occured) as I looked and saw it.  A primer backed out of the last fired round, the firing pin punctured the primer and the primer was stuck on the firing pin.  While shooting, at the time, I naturally did not know this happened.  As normal I tried to cock the gun to fire the next round and it locked up somewhere between 1/4 and 1/2 cock.  There was no going forward at this point, no turning the cylinder or releasing the hammer.  There was no live round under the hammer as the cylinder would not rotate.  I grounded the gun, with a declared malfunction, TO was fully aware there was a malfunction and I finished the stage.   Picked up my handgun, and some joker started yelling in my face that since I touched a malfunctioning firearm it was a MDQ, he had seen it happen at EOT.  As this was a state match naturally I was frustrated.  I proceeded to the unloading table, verified my suspicion of the malfunction.  Called the TO over to see there was no live round under the hammer.  TO determined it was a no call.  Match director determined it was a no call.  Only this one joker is perusing this call as he demanded that I receive a MDQ for touching a declared malfunctioning firearm.  This horse is long dead, yet keeps popping his head up.

 

cardboard cowboy

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

44 minutes ago, Kingsley said:

Lets fill in the blanks on this one Marshall.  The shooter in question was me.  Yes the gun malfunctioned, I knew what the malfunction was (after it occured) as I looked and saw it.  A primer backed out of the last fired round, the firing pin punctured the primer and the primer was stuck on the firing pin.  While shooting, at the time, I naturally did not know this happened.  As normal I tried to cock the gun to fire the next round and it locked up somewhere between 1/4 and 1/2 cock.  There was no going forward at this point, no turning the cylinder or releasing the hammer.  There was no live round under the hammer as the cylinder would not rotate.  I grounded the gun, with a declared malfunction, TO was fully aware there was a malfunction and I finished the stage.   Picked up my handgun, and some joker started yelling in my face that since I touched a malfunctioning firearm it was a MDQ, he had seen it happen at EOT.  As this was a state match naturally I was frustrated.  I proceeded to the unloading table, verified my suspicion of the malfunction.  Called the TO over to see there was no live round under the hammer.  TO determined it was a no call.  Match director determined it was a no call.  Only this one joker is perusing this call as he demanded that I receive a MDQ for touching a declared malfunctioning firearm.  This horse is long dead, yet keeps popping his head up.

 

cardboard cowboy

Understood. My question is it okay to holster a malfunctioned pistol if hammer is cocked. I know a shooter is to handle malfunction firearms alone. This is not on you, since the rule that its a penalty to holster a cocked revolver, but doesn't clarify if its okay to holster a malfunctioned declared pistol if the hammer is cocked and won't lower. Best, MT

[Roger Rapid]

Hmmm. Not sure about this "shooter picks up the malfunctioning pistol" issue.

 

If the pistol or rifle malfunctions, it is my understanding - and our typical procedure - that the shooter is told to ground the gun in question and does NOT holster it, or is NOT the one to pick it up and bring it to the unloading table to be repaired or cleared. The TO - if he/she can - picks it up and hands it safely back to someone - or someone (not a spotter) steps forward and safely retrieves it and takes it to the unloading table. It is at the unloading table that the shooter again takes control of it to clear it (sometimes with help of others - not the unloading officer).

 

If a competitor has a malfunctioning firearm, the rules say that the "shooter may not leave the firing line until the firearm has been cleared..." but that does not suggest that the shooter picks it up from the stage; the "firing line" includes the unloading table. (I think this is similar to the intent of a dropped firearm in which only the CRO/TO can recover it, not the shooter.)

 

RR

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

there is no provision allowing a declared broken cocked pistol to be holstered,,, you have to make it safe elsewhere.  there is also no provision saying the shooter can not retrieve it after the stage is over...   the shooter is not to pick up a dropped gun,, the TO is to do that, and to clear it...

 

imho, a broken cocked gun should never be handed off, from anyone to anyone except in an emergency.....  myself,,, leave my firearm alone,,, I'll get it,,,  

[Kingsley]

Where in the rules does it say a shooter cannot pick up his or her own malfunctioning firearm?  I, like Cheyenne, dislike people handling my guns, unless I give it to someone.  I especially do not want someone handling a broken gun of mine.  

 

CC

[Roger Rapid]

Kingsley...

I'm not suggesting that not picking up a malfunctioning firearm is in the rulebook. It's more a question of safety, and having a shooter with a rifle in one hand and a shotgun in the other going back to pick up and/or holstering a pistol that is in a questionable-safe condition.

 

As far as having someone else transporting it to the unloading table, it's not really much different than having someone expedite staged guns.

 

RR

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

11 minutes ago, Roger Rapid said:

Kingsley...

I'm not suggesting that not picking up a malfunctioning firearm is in the rulebook. It's more a question of safety, and having a shooter with a rifle in one hand and a shotgun in the other going back to pick up and/or holstering a pistol that is in a questionable-safe condition.

 

As far as having someone else transporting it to the unloading table, it's not really much different than having someone expedite staged guns.

 

RR

here is what I do if I have a broken pistol,,, I leave the long guns  and get the broken pistol, take it to the ULT,  and then go get my long guns if no one has brought them to me,,,  reason?  because I know its' condition better than anyone else,,,  and DO  NOT mess with my broken firearm unless I ask you to do so..  if you discharge it while handling it without permission, I will ask for a MDQ for YOU,,,

[Kingsley]

Ok, my last comment and I'll fade away into the woodwork again.  In my opinion, it is safer for me to handle my malfunctioning firearm then it is for a TO to try and hand it off, or a stage worker to pick it up and carry it off.

 

And it is much different then expediting a staged gun.  The expidited staged gun, the condition of the firearm is pretty much assumed safe.  A malfuntioning firearm, unknown condition.  

 

Have a great day, see ya'll on the range....

 

CC