Ammunition Question

[Wild Will Bartell]

Not trying to ignite a firestorm here, but here goes...

I hear from a close friend of mine that my old PD is considering switching back to 9mm from 45. We of course discussed the political reasonings for this issue, which I will not elaborate upon here. Suffice to say, one of the primary reasons for considering the switch is that the ‘new’ 9mm defense rounds are alleged to be so advanced that they now carry the same effectiveness as the .45. 

Does anyone out there have, or know of anyone with any practical, real world experience regarding this claim? I would not be interested in any controlled, laboratory gelatin shooting results, as this type of data is readily available from the feds. Just looking for actual usage and/ or performance of these new 9mm rounds compared to .45’s.

Thanks in advance for your input, pards.

WWB

[Utah Bob #35998]

Determining “Effectiveness” of a round is kind of like tring to nail jello to a wall. Common terms like Stopping Power, etc, are used by manufacturers, tactical, and ballistics experts to prove the superiority of their own pet round. One can get vertigo by reading the dozens of evaluations (and as a firearms instructor, I did) that spring up every year. But the variables are so numerous it depends on conditions of each individual shoot. Energy in ft pounds can be measured, although we aren’t really sure if that equates to lethality. Penetration in various mediums can also be measured. Expansion cn also be determined. The fly in the ointment is that you can only make general conclusions as to a particular round’s effectiveness bcause of the variables involved. I’ve see departments pick ammo based on price and then justify it as most effective by cherry picking evaluations.

I became convinced years ago that given the range of calibers, weights, velocities and materials in handgun rounds the overriding factor seemed to be accuracy of the shooter. Training rther than bullet type is key.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Recoil is an issue in training and qualifying.. 95+% of LEO's are NOT, gun people.

That said-I carried a Colt 1911 'on the job'.

OLG

[Widder, SASS #59054]

If the 9mm bullet has been advanced to a much higher degree in its effectiveness, would it not be reasonable to also realize that the .45 slug has also been advanced to a much higher degree of effectiveness?

 

..........Widder

 

[Sgt. C.J. Sabre, SASS #46770]

1 hour ago, Wild Will Bartell said:

We of course discussed the political reasonnings for this issue, which I will not elaborate upon here.

Thanks in advance for your input, pards.

WWB

 

26 minutes ago, Widowmaker Hill SASS #59054 said:

If the 9mm bullet has been advanced to a much higher degree in its effectiveness, would it not be reasonable to also realize that the .45 slug has also been advanced to a much higher degree of effectiveness?

 

..........Widder

 

Widder, REASON  has no place in a political discussion.

[JD Lud]

Have to take into account magazine capacity as well though.  Comparing a 1911 with 7/8 rounds to 15-20 in 9mm makes a difference.  I love 1911s, but I would not feel I was giving up anything carrying a simple glock 19 with 15/16 rounds.  I think the bullet construction is good enough now that either is effective, both have pros/cons.

 

I truly believe a lot of 9mm negativity is based on reports in military use with FMJs.  They are cheaper for the military and more prone to wound, thus taking the target's buddy out of the fight to take him to the medic, and using up resources to treat him.  I think good 9mm bullets are cost effective and will do the job.  45 will work just as well or better with typically less chances.

 

 

[Wild Will Bartell]

Gentleman,

You all make good, valid points. As far as real data is concerned, I oversaw the transition from 9mm to .45 in my PD. We went from a hit percentage of roughly (as I remember it) the twenty- ish percentile to the forty- ish percentile and rounds fired per encounter to achieve a ‘stop’ went from around 4.5 with the 9 to 1.7 with the 45. I don’t have the exact figures, as the reasearch was conducted in the early 2000’s and I’ve been retired for 11 years now. What I fear is that an important decision is going to be made based upon the laboratory reasearch of a prominent federal agency, and not upon real world performance. Hence, my inquiry regarding actual field data and experience regarding the ‘ new’ 9mm ammunition. I won’t kid anyone and say that internal politics is not a factor, because it is. I just hate to see my PD, with many friends still active in it adversively affected by a decision based upon these concerns. If this new generation of 9mm truly performs as claimed, well maybe there can be a better mouse trap here. But, until this has been proven in actual street encounters, I remain ever the sceptic.

As far as training is concerned, my friend and I discussed this at length. While we agree on all points, it seems that in the training vs qualification battle with the admin, qualification has gained the upper hand. Sad...

[Grampaw Willie, SASS No.26996]

.40 S&W

This will

• ease up on the recoil issue a bit, and
• provide the hitting power you are looking for, and
• provide the mag. cpy you are looking for

the best alternate would be .38 +P but that is a revolver ctg.

[Jimmy Reb, SASS #54804]

OLG I think it's closer to 98% not "gun people".

[Blackwater 53393]

11 hours ago, JD Lud said:

Have to take into account magazine capacity as well though.  Comparing a 1911 with 7/8 rounds to 15-20 in 9mm makes a difference.  I love 1911s, but I would not feel I was giving up anything carrying a simple glock 19 with 15/16 rounds.  I think the bullet construction is good enough now that either is effective, both have pros/cons.

 

I truly believe a lot of 9mm negativity is based on reports in military use with FMJs.  They are cheaper for the military and more prone to wound, thus taking the target's buddy out of the fight to take him to the medic, and using up resources to treat him.  I think good 9mm bullets are cost effective and will do the job.  45 will work just as well or better with typically less chances.

 

 

 

But my 1911 holds 14 rounds!!   My other 1911 holds 15 rounds!!  

 

 

EDIT:  They're both .45

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

The 9mm depends on bullet expansion to be effective-The .45acp doesn't have that problem

That said-I do carry .38 Special, 9mm or .45acp. for CCW.

OLG

[Utah Bob #35998]

2 hours ago, Blackwater 53393 said:

 

But my 1911 holds 14 rounds!!   My other 1911 holds 15 rounds!!  

 

 

EDIT:  They're both .45

Huh??

[Charlie Whiskers]

20 minutes ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

Huh??

 Probably talking about extended mag's. When I was still living in Minnesota the local LEO's could carry what they felt comfortable with and qualify with. A few chose 1911's but they also had extended mag's that I think the one said holds 12 or 13 rounds. Been a loooong time since that topic came up over coffee one day.

[Ethan Cord]

21 minutes ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

Huh??

I am certain Blackwater must be referring to the 1911style Paraordance pistols. 

[Ethan Cord]

High Capacity .45 ACP Pistol

[Rooster Cognizant]

There is a fascinating talk by a doctor on Youtube about handguns and treating gunshot victims. His talk is about first responders and what to do to assist gunshot victims. 

 

Dr Andreas Grabinsky - go ahead and search for it. It's a little gory, as it has videos, images and x-rays of people who have been shot. Plus some videos of confrontations he uses to show that people aren't thrown into the air once they have been shot.

 

Basically his conclusions:

If the person is shot by a high powered rifle, there is not much you can do. 

If they are shot with a handgun, unless it's a shot to the head or maybe the heart, they die by hemorrhaging blood, some faster some slower depending on the permanent wound cavity. People stop their activity faster if they bleed more, so large caliber bullets have a slightly greater chance of hitting an important blood vessel a smaller bullet may miss. Of course two smaller channels may bleed more than one bigger one. 

 

[Finagler 6853 Life]

STI makes a double stack "1911".  They call it a 2011.  I know a guy that has one.  It is a handful but you can shoot a long time before reloading.  Not familiar with the Paraordinance pieces.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

As a former LEO I will say this.  We shoot to STOP the person.

Their survival, is secondary.

The larger hole is a great aid in the this 'stopping'.

Same reason we used a 12ga shotgun, and not a 410.

OLG

[John Barleycorn, SASS #76982]

Our department just switched from 45 Federal HydraShok to 9mm Federal HST

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

1 hour ago, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said:

Out department just switched from 45 Federal HydraShok to 9mm Federal HST

 

Hope they switched gunz too-

OLG

[Utah Bob #35998]

4 hours ago, Finagler 6853 Life said:

STI makes a double stack "1911".  They call it a 2011.  I know a guy that has one.  It is a handful but you can shoot a long time before reloading.  Not familiar with the Paraordinance pieces.

Well...if it's a double stack I wouldn't call it a 1911. But I'm a purist.

And a dinosaur.

 

[John Barleycorn, SASS #76982]

1 hour ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

Hope they switched gunz too-

OLG

I had to retire my Sig P220 and accept a department issued Glock 17.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

I would trust either of them-Would prefer my 220 as first choice. Fits my med sized hands better than the Glock.

OLG

 

[Wild Will Bartell]

3 hours ago, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said:

Our department just switched from 45 Federal HydraShok to 9mm Federal HST

John,

What prompted the switch?

Are you privy to any hard data regarding actual performance?

Were there any internal politics involved?

[John Barleycorn, SASS #76982]

The three firearms instructors did “online research” they saw the trend and looked at some data. The liked the greater capacity and quicker follow up shots, and felt this 9mm HST stuff would hit just as hard, and penatrate as deep as 45’s. We are a small 21 man department there were no politics involved that I’m aware of. 

[Wild Will Bartell]

14 minutes ago, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said:

The three firearms instructors did “online research” they saw the trend and looked at some data. The liked the greater capacity and quicker follow up shots, and felt this 9mm HST stuff would hit just as hard, and penatrate as deep as 45’s. We are a small 21 man department there were no politics involved that I’m aware of. 

Thanks, John.

[Ethan Cord]

2 hours ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

Well...if it's a double stack I wouldn't call it a 1911. But I'm a purist.

And a dinosaur.

 

It’s just 1/8” or so bigger around the grips.  Originally, Para Ordanance just made a wide body frame with a 13round magazine. I bought one in 1986 and installed a WWII Remington Rand slide that someone had previously modified by adding adjustable sights. Later I picked up one of their complete P12 Models. I like single stacks too, but prefer double stacks with extra mags for protection. 

 

I am a dinosuar too. No one has been able to convert me to plastic pistols yet. I have also been known to carrry a revolver for CCW purposes. 

[Blackwater 53393]

2 hours ago, Utah Bob #35998 said:

Well...if it's a double stack I wouldn't call it a 1911. But I'm a purist.

And a dinosaur.

 

 

Everything about the P/O 13 and 14/45 pistols is 1911 except the grip frame and magazine. It uses the same holster, the same internals, and the original guns were actually kits that used all original 1911 Colt parts.

 

Mine are both wonderfully ergonomically correct for my larger than average hands and they function FLAWLESSLY and the factory trigger is excellent!!

 

I’m not a plastic gun guy either! My 13 is cold blue steel and the 14 is stainless. 

 

Most training today leans toward two handed shooting so that silly 1/8” is immaterial!

 

As far as dinosaurs and such, I guess I’d be more like a wooly mammoth!!

[Blackwater 53393]

I forgot!! One major improvement Para Ordinance made on these guns was a one piece barrel and feed ramp. Most of these guns will shoot almost ANY ammo, with little or no gunsmithing.

[Dubious Don #56333]

Pick a gun that fits your hand. In a caliber you can control. Learn to shoot effectively because you gots to hit the vitals!

 

In order to do that the bullet must penetrate deep enough to reach'em. Seen a few 'big fellers' that were bullet sponges because they were so thick bullets didn't make it to the vitals.

 

Bullets stop people in one of three ways;

"Ow, that hurts, I think I'll stop now." Not that the suspect COULDN'T fight, he just gave up.

 

Damage to the circulation plant. Puncture a major blood vessel or the pump (heart) BP drops and the brain doesn't get enough blood to function. The brain however CAN continue to function for up to a minute at least meaning the walking dead guy you just shot? He can still fight.

 

Damage to vital working parts. Break a major bone in the leg/pelvis takes away mobility but he can still FIGHT. A shot to the CNS usually ends things most ricky-tick. (teeth, cheeks, blowing our an eyeball don't count but gets a B+ for effort

 

Lung shots do not always produce a stop. Liver shots don't either but....the liver is a very dense and vascular organ full of blood which transmits a solid shock to the system which can....I said CAN produce an instant stop reaction. (see next)

 

Bigger bullets and faster bullets produce more 'shock' and a bigger temporary cavity, do more damage. Rifle bullets travel so fast they produce hydrostatic shock of sufficient force to often get that one shot stop but....might not take the guy out of the fight depending on whats hit.

 

Shoot early, shoot a lot.

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

18 hours ago, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said:

I had to retire my Sig P220 and accept a department issued Glock 17.

What caliber on the Glock? In your opinion, how do they compare, i.e., trigger pull, ergonomics, function etc.?

[Chili Ron]

Howdy,

Just a totally friendly comment: A LOT of folks think the 1911 is .45 acp ONLY.

In fact there is some background indicating it could have been a 9mm of some sort.

The Army wanted .45 so they made the 1911 .45 at first.

According to the article the 1911 has been made in 12 calibers.....

And I have shot a 9mm 1911. Very manageable recoil. Which could

lead to much more practice and much better accuracy, right?

 

So if a department standardized on 9mm 1911s it would probably

tick off everyone.  And if everyone is upset, its a good compromise, right?

Best

CR

please pass the nomex undies.....

 

[Grampaw Willie, SASS No.26996]

ain't never make everyone happy

 

seems someplace I saw an ad for a 1911 pistol in 10mm  ...

 

that ought to just about do it (unless ya can dredge up a 657 --- shouldn't bee too hard )

 

I prefer to keep my Springfield;   best * pistol I ever had

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

The Colt Delta Elite is 10mm, I have one and love it.

I also have my Uncles Colt 1911 in .38 Super he carried as a LEO in Denver, Colo. back in the 1930's

He said the Super was better for punching holes in car, than the .38 Special.

OLG

[John Barleycorn, SASS #76982]

6 hours ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

What caliber on the Glock? In your opinion, how do they compare, i.e., trigger pull, ergonomics, function etc.?

The Glock is 9mm. Trigger pull feels similar, the Glock is much lighter than the all steel Sig. that are both full size autos and the ergonomics both good.