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What would you do?


Rance - SASS # 54090

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We're a small club with about a 7 month season..

I was able to shoot the 1st. Match of the season in April but

couldn't make another match until Sept.

When I showed up I noticed a new shooter about my age.. ( that's old):rolleyes:

I visited with him to find out he had shot CAS quite a few years back

but had to stop due to family financial obligations..

I welcomed him back and we visited until shooters meeting...

I noticed him walking with a cane for assistance..

He carried his shotgun on a sling and rifle in hand to the stages..

Every time he staged his shotgun for shooting and

every time he completed the stage afterwards he slung his shotgun

over his shoulder.. Picked up his rifle and went to the unloading table..

I cringed watching.. Nobody called anything..

After the match I went over to him and quietly explained the 170 rule

and that he was breaking the 170 every time he slung his shotgun

over his shoulder..

I told him I'd help carry his guns to the line for him and maybe

he needed to practice a different technique during off season..

 

He hasn't been back..

 

Rance ;)

Just wonderin if I did the right thing:mellow:

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I agree with Widder, You handled it well, Maybe should have had the conversation sooner before someone called him on the SDQ.

We frequently help others with their guns if help is needed.

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Dear Rance,

 

I've met you and read many, many, many... of your thoughtful posts. I doubt you could be rude if you tried.

 

Do not feel that you chased him away (reading between the lines in your post).

 

Regards,

 

Allie "always thinking Rance thinks before he posts or speaks" Mo

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you dun right!  

 

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Perhaps I'm being dense, but if a shotgun and rifle is pointed downrange then up while being slung on the shoulder and then carried to the unloading table, where is the 170 broken? The original post does not adequately describe the situation. Don't understand the issue as something is missing from the narrative.

 

Church Key

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+1, CK.. Straight up is a permitted direction for muzzles when between the loading and unloading tables and the firing line.  If he is not sweeping someone while slinging up the firearm, then most folks would give that shooter - nothing - but encouragement.

 

This is especially important to remember when the loading and unloading tables are NOT on the firing line plane.   There's NO shooter who walks to the unloading table with the muzzles in compliance with the strict 170 rule!     Want me to video all the shooters doing that (keeping muzzle straight down range) at Bordertown when they retreat to the unloading table?  That will be quick - there's NONE.

 

What do RO instruction classes specify the RO should say at completion of the stage?  "Muzzles up and take guns to the unloading table"

 

Good luck, GJ

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This is going to become an increasingly difficult issue as SASS is OLD.  One of the most difficult things in many people's lives is taking the keys to the car away from grandpa.  Now we are grandpa.  I know three shooters that have quit shooting CAS the past year and sold all their guns as they no longer felt safe shooting.  The problem will be those who can't or won't realize they are getting unsafe.  Many MDs are going to be faced with the difficult task of telling a shooter they are going to have to stop shooting a match because they are simply unsafe.  I was at a match and manning the unloading table when a shooter finished the stage and was carrying his rifle with his hand under the receiver and the barrel parallel with the ground like you might do while hunting with a levergun.  The barrel was pointing at my belly button and the unloading table was several feet behind the firing line.  I said keep your muzzle down range.  His reply was, "if you don't like it don't stand there."  I mentioned it to the MD and his response was "he is one of our original members and he is just trying to have fun."  We are having fun with FIREARMS.  If someone is just trying to have fun and shoots someone that person will not be having fun.  Difficult issue that is going to get more difficult in the next few years.

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If  you got swept or the 170 was broken on the firing line, then call it.  If shooter was compliant with rules, don't.   Allow vertical muzzles during transit to and from firing positions.

It's nothing to take personally.    

 

If shooter has a challenge handling the weight of both guns, then it's common at our club to help a shooter by carrying one of the long guns to or from the line.

 

Good luck, GJ

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1 hour ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

This is going to become an increasingly difficult issue as SASS is OLD.  One of the most difficult things in many people's lives is taking the keys to the car away from grandpa.  Now we are grandpa.  I know three shooters that have quit shooting CAS the past year and sold all their guns as they no longer felt safe shooting.  The problem will be those who can't or won't realize they are getting unsafe.  Many MDs are going to be faced with the difficult task of telling a shooter they are going to have to stop shooting a match because they are simply unsafe.  I was at a match and manning the unloading table when a shooter finished the stage and was carrying his rifle with his hand under the receiver and the barrel parallel with the ground like you might do while hunting with a levergun.  The barrel was pointing at my belly button and the unloading table was several feet behind the firing line.  I said keep your muzzle down range.  His reply was, "if you don't like it don't stand there."  I mentioned it to the MD and his response was "he is one of our original members and he is just trying to have fun."  We are having fun with FIREARMS.  If someone is just trying to have fun and shoots someone that person will not be having fun.  Difficult issue that is going to get more difficult in the next few years.

WOW. The shooter should have been DQed. Who they are is completely irrelevant. This is why the warning mentality is dangerous. Nobody wants to be the bad guy, but sometimes doing your job correctly means making unpopular decisions. 

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2 hours ago, Larsen E. Pettifogger, SASS #32933 said:

This is going to become an increasingly difficult issue as SASS is OLD.  One of the most difficult things in many people's lives is taking the keys to the car away from grandpa.  Now we are grandpa.  I know three shooters that have quit shooting CAS the past year and sold all their guns as they no longer felt safe shooting.  The problem will be those who can't or won't realize they are getting unsafe.  Many MDs are going to be faced with the difficult task of telling a shooter they are going to have to stop shooting a match because they are simply unsafe.  I was at a match and manning the unloading table when a shooter finished the stage and was carrying his rifle with his hand under the receiver and the barrel parallel with the ground like you might do while hunting with a levergun.  The barrel was pointing at my belly button and the unloading table was several feet behind the firing line.  I said keep your muzzle down range.  His reply was, "if you don't like it don't stand there."  I mentioned it to the MD and his response was "he is one of our original members and he is just trying to have fun."  We are having fun with FIREARMS.  If someone is just trying to have fun and shoots someone that person will not be having fun.  Difficult issue that is going to get more difficult in the next few years.

It was a very hard decision on my part to stop shooting in 2014 at matches but I had seen over the years shooters who were getting sloppy as they got older and did not want to get to the point of having "the Talk" with a friend.. There were many people who were there to help, but I made the decision. Mine is a health issue that made me make the decision to quit but I work the unloading table when I get to matches and see some who are getting to that point. It is sad...but a fact of life we who live longer must face

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I am seeing more and more shooters carrying their long guns muzzle upwardish but with their arms hanging down by their sides instead of carried muzzles higher than head level. I know the rules say nothing about the height muzzles should be carried BUT when many shooters carry their long guns like this the muzzles (usually SxS shotgun) can and do sweep shooters from load table to firing line, etc. And in carrying like this, the LOADED rifle can easily break this rule. Only occasionally do I see some on mention this to the shooter. And as some shooters who carry like this fatigue throughout the match, those muzzles start pointing more toward the horizontal than vertical. :blink:

 

I understand issues like upper body strength attenuation, shoulder problems, arthritis, whatever the physical condition might be, but as pointed out, safety first and rules is rules and I really do not think ANYONE ever appreciates getting muzzle swept for any reason excuse.

 

 

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Was there a reason the TO didn't assist? I have packed a few guns in my time as TO. As a geezer (:D) gets older I don't think they get upset if someone gives them instruction like "re-stage it", "muzzle up" or "leave those brass and we'll get them". I try not to let someone grab for dropped shot shells hoping they get a penalty and try to remind folks where the unload table is and to keep muzzles up. 

 

I think I read somewhere one time to safely assist the shooter.

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I have to agree with what the OP did.  There should be absolutely no excuse for not observing firearms safety; anyone purposefully disregarding the four basic rules should be asked in no uncertain terms to cease and desist and accept assistance if needed, or leave.   Plain and simple. 

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20 hours ago, Church Key, SASS # 33713 said:

Perhaps I'm being dense, but if a shotgun and rifle is pointed downrange then up while being slung on the shoulder and then carried to the unloading table, where is the 170 broken? The original post does not adequately describe the situation. Don't understand the issue as something is missing from the narrative.

 

Church Key

 

I’m still waiting for the answer to this question. Only time I’ve ever slung a rifle was hunting but the muzzle was still pointed straight up. Isn’t that okay when moving to and from the firing line?

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Breaking the rules is breaking the rules.  Period.  

Especially with regard to safety rules.

And failing to penalize a shooter for an unsafe act is setting a dangerous precedent. 

Hurt feelings will heal faster than gunshot wounds.

 

At Eldorado this year; we had one stage DQ on my posse.  My lovely partner, Painted Lady broke the 170 with her shotgun when retrieving it from a vertical rack.  

A couple shooters glanced toward me; like I was going to plead her case or something.  My only comment was, "Yup, I saw it too.  Call it".

 

My daughter, Desert Scorpion, was speaking to another shooter later; when that shooter said that since she was  new; maybe we should have cut Painted Lady some slack.  

Scorpion looked over at me and said, "On safety rules?  My dad doesn't do that.  He personally DQ'd me when I was 8 years old at our annual shoot.  And I'm glad he did."

 

I do not agree with every rule in SASS and I have argued and lobbied against many.  But the safety of our shooters, our friends, our families is more important than ANYBODIES feelings.  Safety rules are in place for a reason.

Abide by them.  

Or in the immortal words of Curly Bill.

"Well, bye"

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I would also like more info on how he was breaking the 170 rule. If he was heck ya DQ but for me on this wire not enough info

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1 hour ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

I’m still waiting for the answer to this question. Only time I’ve ever slung a rifle was hunting but the muzzle was still pointed straight up. Isn’t that okay when moving to and from the firing line?

It is the shotgun, not loaded and open. OP doesn't say double or 97, but both would be pretty close to vertical. It would be difficult for me to sling a long arm safely, by SASS standards, at the loading table and at the firing line. The OP saw it, and if he was concerned enough to talk to him, then he did the right thing by talking to him about it. There could be many reasons why the guy didn't come back though

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Its not just older shooters.   I was at a big shoot in Texas last spring manning the unload table when a well know cowboy gunsmith walks

to the unload table with the shotgun parallel to the ground pointing at me.  I called him on it and his reply was "it's unloaded"  Happened twice and the second time I reported to the TO.  The TO talked to him but that was all, no penalty.  He did not repeat the act after that. 

Believe he should have had a SDQ.

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One question:

 

When have you ever seen anyone with a rifle or shotgun "slung" over their shoulder where the barrel is pointed straight up in the air?...and I am sure the long gun in question isn't being carried at "shoulder arms".

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1 hour ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

One question:

 

When have you ever seen anyone with a rifle or shotgun "slung" over their shoulder where the barrel is pointed straight up in the air?...and I am sure the long gun in question isn't being carried at "shoulder arms".

 

Every time I’ve ever been hunting. (No, that’s not me)

 

EE1CE86B-7150-4088-A0D5-C727D50DD010.jpeg

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1 hour ago, Pat Riot, SASS #13748 said:

One question:

 

When have you ever seen anyone with a rifle or shotgun "slung" over their shoulder where the barrel is pointed straight up in the air?...and I am sure the long gun in question isn't being carried at "shoulder arms".

Muzzle up, is SOP when 'slung'.

OLG

 

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Wow!! I never thought this thread would go the

direction it has on some of the posts..

It wasn't about "did he" or "how could he possibly" break the 170..

but.. If I handled correctly..

AND yes... I know I didn't because I didn't call the SDQ..

 

The TO/RO of the club is of the +senior age also..

He follows the philosophy "It's just a local match"..

Me.. I feel a shooter needs to be informed in case they 

should go to a BIG match or different club where the rules 

would be enforced..

 

Rance ;)

Thinkin' maybe I shouldn't have posted.. 

 

But.. :mellow: exercise fer ya ta try at home..

Stand in front of your stage prop (table)

Yer done shootin'.. Now yer cane, rifle and shotgun (on a sling)

are laying there to be picked up..

Sling yer shotgun over yer right shoulder with yer left hand..

now bend over and pick up yer rifle with yer right hand..

and yer cane with the left hand..

turn and with a stiff leg walk to the unloading table..

Do ya really know where the muzzle of yer shotgun is pointing??

 

Reckon my regret is by not informing him early on in the match

that he's breaking the 170 and not helping him carry his long guns..

OK.. Shame on me..

 

He was having a great time until I took the wind out of his sails

and explaining his mistake.. :mellow:

 

 

 

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Rance,

 

I think your good. I just wondered where the heck the helpful folks were? If someone breaks a rule then its okay to enforce it or remind them especially if they are struggling with a cane and four guns. Maybe someone should have taken the cane away so he had a free hand... :lol:

 

I was watching some CAS on youtube where folk grab their long guns in the middle and come out of the window and start to turn with their muzzles out of the 170 cone and not quite vertical yet. What do ya call there on 80% of the posse? 

 

I promised myself I wouldn't get into these type of posts so I better get onto the next Marlin jamb post!

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22 minutes ago, Rance - SASS # 54090 said:

Wow!! I never thought this thread would go the

direction it has on some of the posts..

It wasn't about "did he" or "how could he possibly" break the 170..

but.. If I handled correctly..

AND yes... I know I didn't because I didn't call the SDQ..

 

IF he did in fact break the 170 (That’s the question that was asked and has yet to be answered) the yes, you absolutely did the right thing. I’m even on your side about giving a warning before calling the DQ. We all have brain fades occasionally. A friendly reminder is most always is appreciated. If your reminder was the reason for his leaving then shame on him, not you. You sound like a great person to shoot with. 

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53 minutes ago, Rance - SASS # 54090 said:

Wow!! I never thought this thread would go the

direction it has on some of the posts..

It wasn't about "did he" or "how could he possibly" break the 170..

but.. If I handled correctly..

AND yes... I know I didn't because I didn't call the SDQ..

 

The TO/RO of the club is of the +senior age also..

He follows the philosophy "It's just a local match"..

Me.. I feel a shooter needs to be informed in case they 

should go to a BIG match or different club where the rules 

would be enforced..

 

Rance ;)

Thinkin' maybe I shouldn't have posted.. 

 

But.. :mellow: exercise fer ya ta try at home..

Stand in front of your stage prop (table)

Yer done shootin'.. Now yer cane, rifle and shotgun (on a sling)

are laying there to be picked up..

Sling yer shotgun over yer right shoulder with yer left hand..

now bend over and pick up yer rifle with yer right hand..

and yer cane with the left hand..

turn and with a stiff leg walk to the unloading table..

Do ya really know where the muzzle of yer shotgun is pointing??

 

Reckon my regret is by not informing him early on in the match

that he's breaking the 170 and not helping him carry his long guns..

OK.. Shame on me..

 

He was having a great time until I took the wind out of his sails

and explaining his mistake.. :mellow:

 

 

 

I think you did what you thought was right and it's unfortunate he didn't come back.  You may be misunderstanding some of the reactions here.  From what I've read it's seems that it's not clear whether the shooter broke the 170 while the 170 was in effect.  The 170 applies once the first gun is staged (IIRC).  If he's through shooting the stage the 170 is no longer in effect.

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29 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

 From what I've read it's seems that it's not clear whether the shooter broke the 170 while the 170 was in effect.  The 170 applies once the first gun is staged (IIRC).  If he's through shooting the stage the 170 is no longer in effect.

 

Wow.. If this is correct... I'm completely misinformed..

You're saying once the last shot is fired

muzzle direction (the 170) doesn't matter?

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No, I’m not saying it doesn’t matter, I’m saying downrange is no longer the safest default muzzle direction and the 170 isn’t the applicable rule.  Think about it, the stage is over, the shooter has picked up his guns, muzzles up. Now the 170 isn’t in effect. Where are some posse members going now? Downrange to reset SG targets, recover brass, etc.

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