Cowboy Loads for Defense?

[Juiceharp Jen]

I'd like to know whether cowboy loads are suitable for defense purposes, especially the store bought 38 special.  I actually became aware of CAS in the first place because I was looking for some lower recoil rounds to use in my Scandian frame snub nose .38.  I did carry with cowboy loads at one time, but someone talked me into switching to the 90 grain critical defense rounds after those particular cowboy loads became unavailable. The critical defense rounds are still a little too snappy though, and my accuracy suffers.  The cowboy loads were much more accurate.  So I'm thinking about going back to cowboy loads now that I've purchased them online, unless there is some compelling reason not to do that.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Carry'n reloads for SD is not something I will ever do. I say that, as a survivor of 2 gunfights.

I carry Federal .38 Special, 125gn Hydra-shock +P in my S&W340

OLG 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Practice with your cowboy loads, if you want.  

But carry/defend with commercial ammo with excellent performance.   Your life (or your financial future) could depend on it.  (A heavy jacket or the lightest available body armor will defeat or impair a lead bullet at low velocity every time.)

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

[John Henry Quick]

Give Polycase ARX or Ruger ARX ammo a try - high energy, but low recoil. 

[Juiceharp Jen]

10 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Carry'n reloads for SD is not something I will ever do. I say that, as a survivor of 2 gunfights.

I carry Federal .38 Special, 125gn Hydra-shock +P in my S&W340

OLG 

 

We have the same pistol.  I'm so worried about missing on the second shot and hitting someone else that I stopped carrying it.  I carry an LCP now.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Practice more.......

I also have this on mine.

https://www.crimsontrace.com/products/manufacturer/smith-wesson/01-1870

 

OLG

[Juiceharp Jen]

Just now, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Practice more.......

I also have this on mine.

https://www.crimsontrace.com/products/manufacturer/smith-wesson/01-1870

 

OLG

 

 

Me too.  I can't hold the laser dot still after the first shot.  My hand shakes.

[July Smith]

In terms of velocity, penetration, expansion, etc. I can not surpass factory self-defense ammo with published load data.  Speer Gold Dots for me in all my carry guns.  That being said my 45 colts full of black powder and topped off with a 230-250gr bullets could certainly defend me if need be.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Under stress and duress - you will NEVER notice recoil.

Under stress and duress - high powered impacts are ALWAYS better than low powered ones.

 

Contrary to Bob Munden and Jerry Miculeks abilities - 2" J-Frame Smiths are not long range weapons.

Most civilian shootings take place at arms length and nearly all at less than 7 yards.

 

Cloverleaf patterns are cool - but all you are really looking for are 6 inch groups at speed - if you can do that with a quality self defense round - you are ok.

If you cannot - I would still recommend a lighter caliber with a quality self defense round over cowboy loads.

 

Research has proven that bullet design and performance is just as important as the caliber.

This is why calibers like 9mm and 40s&w have begun to be looked at as equals to the vaunted 45acp.

Bullet design has begun to make these easier to handle calibers as effective as the larger caliber.

 

Yes, a quality bullet in a 357 magnum is still (and always will be) a better choice than a quality bullet in a 380 acp.

But Ill take that quality bullet in a 380 over a  lead non cavity 38special cowboy round.

Optimize your bullet choice in a caliber you can handle rather than up the caliber with a poor bullet choice. 

[Juiceharp Jen]

I notice that the muzzle energy on the RDX is less than the critical defense lite, and so is the low recoil hydrashok.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

You mentioned the LCP

Federal makes a Hydra shok round for the 380acp - that I would carry a million times over before a low powered 38 special lead bullet cowboy load.

[Yusta B.]

Sounds like you might benefit by taking some self defense courses/instruction & some more range time. No offense meant.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Can you put 2 rounds on a 9" paper plate at 15' distance?

Why does your hands shake?

X2 on real training. 

OLG

[Juiceharp Jen]

I have no problem with other pistols.  I've just noticed with that one, due to the recoil, I can't hold the pistol steady after the first shot.

[Henry T Harrison]

I'm probably a throw back dinosaur I've carried a Model 36 for forty  years. I have little faith in bullets expanding out of a snub nose and I've tried dozens over the years. For that reason I carry 148 grain full wad cutters. They have minimal recoil. decent penetration, and cut a full size hole

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

6 minutes ago, Juiceharp Jen said:

I have no problem with other pistols.  I've just noticed with that one, due to the recoil, I can't hold the pistol steady after the first shot.

 

Give the low-recoil HS loads a try.

 

OLG

[CurlyDrew42]

My pistol instructor said any gun you have is the best self defense gun.  That being said while I would not hesitate to use my cowboy ammo for defense especially from my 12 ga.  I think I would rather run something hotter, better chance of doing the job etc.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

13 minutes ago, CurlyDrew42 said:

My pistol instructor said any gun you have is the best self defense gun.  That being said while I would not hesitate to use my cowboy ammo for defense especially from my 12 ga.  I think I would rather run something hotter, better chance of doing the job etc.

Every round fired in a SD event can/will be a civil suit-BTDT. This, long after the courts say you were justified.

You do not want excessive penetration, as going through walls etc.....

Use the best tool for the job at hand-

OLG

[Hashknife Cowboy]

In the horrific event I needed to defend myself with my CAS loads, I could.  I shoot full power .45 Colt, 250 gr or 44 Special ,200 gr.  But my "go to" is a 1911 with 230 gr Federal Hydra-shocks.  I firmly believe in factory ammo for self defense, bigger is better if you are able.

[Blackwater 53393]

My own PD guns are either .45 acp or .45 Colt. I use Critical Defense in all three weapons.  It used to be Winchester Silver Tips and my third magazine and my second speed loader still hold them.  Like Lumpy said, ANY self defense incident is BOUND to wind up in civil litigation.  Use of factory ammunition just takes away one avenue through which you can be attacked in court.

[Rye Miles #13621]

Hornady Critical Defense rounds are my choice for self defense whether it's my S&W Airweight in .38 spl or my Colt Mustang Pocketlite in .380.

[Attica Jack #23953]

I use Ruger ARX in all my carry guns.  My S&W airweight 38 special really impressed with this round.   The recoil doesn't bother me, but the wife likes the lower recoil with the ARX ammo.

[J-BAR #18287]

I expect my hands would shake in a real life self defense situation also, and I think that’s normal and there is no way to cure “normal”!

 

My wife and I have Crimson Trace grips on our carry guns.  Even in a relaxed practice session the laser spot will not be absolutely still, so accept that as real life normal.

 

Practice until all your shots hit center mass on the target.  And listen to OLG, he’s been there. 

[Boomstick Bruce]

49 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Hornady Critical Defense rounds are my choice for self defense whether it's my S&W Airweight in .38 spl or my Colt Mustang Pocketlite in .380.

+1 I use critical defense in a kel-tec P3AT with an armalaser laser. The armalaser is touch sensitive like a touch lamp, no buttons to push our switches to flip. Less stuff to have to think about in a life or death situation.

[Bart Solo]

Here is something most people who use reloads in a self defense role don't realize.  After you survive the gun fight, you might find yourself in a legal battle or two.  The first might be a criminal defense and the second a civil suit.  If you use reloads, even mild cowboy reloads, you are running the risk of being portrayed as some sort of crazed gun nut trying to find a victim (the mugger who attempted to kill you.)  Use commercial loads in your self defense weapons when you carry.  No reason at all to give some plaintiff's lawyer or a prosecutor on the make an argument to use against you.  

 

Anyway, the commercial self defense rounds are far more lethal than any cowboy load.   If you can't handle your pistol find something better.  A lot of women are equipped with tiny S&W 357 Airweights by their husbands because they are so light, not realizing that the 13 ounce pistol  has more recoil than a Desert Eagle.    A 9mm or even a 380 with the right bullets is a much better choice for a lightweight carry pistol. 

 

Personally my home defense pistol is a Glock 35 which I also use in IDPA and other pistol competitions.  When it is not playing some shooting sport, it is equipped with Hornady Critical Defense rounds in a standard Glock magazine.   

[Major Matt Lewis]

Being NRA Certified Basic Pistol Instructor through Personal Protection Outside the Home Instructor and a CCW Instructor in Kansas and Missouri, as well as someone who is credentialed to train police in both pistol and patrol rifle, I might have a little insight on the subject.  If one of my students came to me and asked if they should carry a cartridge as you have asked, I would refund their money because they hadn't learned a God Blessed thing and I would not want my name attached to any credentials that they would carry.  Good Lord, the civil liability possibility would boggle my mind.    The lack of penetrating power would also open you up for getting killed prematurely.  There is no good that can come from carrying cowboy loads for personal protection.

[Pat Riot]

Juiceharp Jen,

Yusta B hit the nail firmly on the head.

Call some local ranges that offer self defense courses, for Ladies in particular.

Next, call the NRA and tell them you are looking for women’s training in your area and I will bet you they can get you hooked up and you won’t have to buy a new gun to do it as you already have 2 reliable pocket shooters in your possession now.

Next, when you say “cowboy ammo” are you taking reloads? Or Factory made ammo that can be used in Cowboy Action Shooting?

Factory ammo should be just fine if you are confident in aiming , shooting and shooting again and again and hitting your target.

DO NOT USE RELOADS! Why? Because Forensic Investigstors can’t correlate scientific data that matches what happened versus what you say happened.

 

Call the NRA or your local gun rights organization and request info on Women’s Defensive Training. This isn’t rocket science and it doesn’t need to be intimidating. Leave the science to the Factory ballisticians, find a trainer and find the ammo that you can shoot well and with confidence.

 

Kind Regards,

Pat Riot

[Juiceharp Jen]

13 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

Give the low-recoil HS loads a try.

 

OLG

 

I will do that.

 

I keep an SDS .45 ACP with laser in my vehicle, and I'm able to fire it one handed at the range and get all rounds on target at 10 meters.  I also have an SDS 9 mm with laser that has less felt recoil than the .45, but I don't find it to be more accurate for me.

 

With the critical defense lite ammo, the snub nosed revolver kicks a bit harder than the SDS .45 ACP.  I'm pretty sure I could still get all rounds from it on target at 15 feet. But I'm talking about a person sized target, not a paper plate.

[Juiceharp Jen]

Does the ARX ammo have enough energy to reliably cycle a semi-automatic?  If so, I might try it in my LCP and my SDS.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Don't forget our S&W340's only weigh 1 lb loaded, so yes the recoil is there.

That is why I shoot .38 Special out of it instead of the .357 Magnum it's built for. 

 

OLG

[Major Matt Lewis]

Opinions are like noses, we all have them and they smell.  That said, Federal HST and Hornady Critical Defense are the two rounds that I carry for personal protection.

[Shooting Bull]

You've been given excellent advice so far.  Practice, practice, practice, take a lesson or three, practice, practice, practice.

 

But after all that, you need to stick to what works for you.  I'm going to go against conventional wisdom on reloads.  The only place I've ever heard the argument against reloads was an article from Massad Ayoob many years ago stating that could be used against you in court.  There could be plenty of examples of that actually happening, but I've never heard of them.  So I'm going to say to go ahead and use reloads if that's the only thing you can hit your target with.  Yes, they may be underpowered but I firmly believe a hit with a .22 beats a miss with a .44.

 

(Truth in advertising, I carry Winchester PDX1 Defender ammo in my .45 ACP)

[Juiceharp Jen]

2 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

Don't forget our S&W340's only weigh 1 lb loaded, so yes the recoil is there.

That is why I shoot .38 Special out of it instead of the .357 Magnum it's built for. 

 

OLG

 

The gentleman that sold me the 340 said he shoots .357 magnum with it.  His coworkers confirmed it.  He was a really big guy.  I shot one .357 round with it and it turned my hand black and blue.  The next time I returned to that store, the guy who sold me the 340 had his hand in a cast.  He went in the back when he saw me.  His coworker told me he broke his hand shooting .357 in his 340.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

53 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

You've been given excellent advice so far.  Practice, practice, practice, take a lesson or three, practice, practice, practice.

 

But after all that, you need to stick to what works for you.  I'm going to go against conventional wisdom on reloads.  The only place I've ever heard the argument against reloads was an article from Massad Ayoob many years ago stating that could be used against you in court.  There could be plenty of examples of that actually happening, but I've never heard of them.  So I'm going to say to go ahead and use reloads if that's the only thing you can hit your target with.  Yes, they may be underpowered but I firmly believe a hit with a .22 beats a miss with a .44.

 

(Truth in advertising, I carry Winchester PDX1 Defender ammo in my .45 ACP)

 

My statement about reloads, deals with ammo reliability.........

OLG

 

[Bart Solo]

1 hour ago, Shooting Bull said:

You've been given excellent advice so far.  Practice, practice, practice, take a lesson or three, practice, practice, practice.

 

But after all that, you need to stick to what works for you.  I'm going to go against conventional wisdom on reloads.  The only place I've ever heard the argument against reloads was an article from Massad Ayoob many years ago stating that could be used against you in court.  There could be plenty of examples of that actually happening, but I've never heard of them.  So I'm going to say to go ahead and use reloads if that's the only thing you can hit your target with.  Yes, they may be underpowered but I firmly believe a hit with a .22 beats a miss with a .44.

 

(Truth in advertising, I carry Winchester PDX1 Defender ammo in my .45 ACP)

I heard the advice in a conceal carry class.  It made sense to me, but I have been a lawyer for about 46 years so I am familiar with how they think.  I do agree shooting straight is more important than shooting heavy.   It is far better to hit your target than to scare with a miss.  That means you need to practice, practice, practice.  I don't know anybody who is going to practice, practice, practice with 357 magnum rounds out of a lightweight carry revolver.  

 

I reread the original post and realized she was talking about commercial cowboy loads.  My original comment was aimed at reloads so it was probably misplaced.   I would say practice, practice, practice with the cowboy loads and then load up with self defense rounds when you are carrying.  You just won't notice the recoil if you stumble into a gunfight.