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Illegal ammo, time to change it? apparently no interest


Cheyenne Culpepper 32827

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it wud much simpler to just say,,, Illegal ammo is ammo received from an other person once the stage has started,,,,, but it still must be staged correctly....  

 

make it legal to bring ammo to the line however yude like,, but once the stage has begun it must have been staged correctly per stage directions, and the shooter can not receive ammo from any other source,,, ie, TO spooter(s) or any one else

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Does that mean I cannot grab shotshells from the TO's belt if I run out? I did not receive the ammo, I took it. :D

 

 

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I don't understand... this subject pops up time after time,, and no one has an honest opinion, or insight?

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Are you saying it's time to change the wording or it's time to change the rule?

 

I'm with you on this and I'm serious - I didn't quite understand the question.  

 

Mo

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6 hours ago, Dantankerous said:

Does that mean I cannot grab shotshells from the TO's belt if I run out? I did not receive the ammo, I took it. :D

 

 

You know, I switched to a slider for shotgun that holds 6 rounds instead of a shotgun belt.  I haven't had it come up yet that I needed an extra set....but that is a good idea!!  Ha!!  No, I carry a couple in my pocket just in case I need them.  Or, the pouch always has two as well.  I shouldn't say anything, but I have had to never re-engage a shotgun target yet.  Now, I will probably have to shoot several twice because I said that.  I have only done 4 official matches so.....I am sure it will happen.  

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1 hour ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

I don't understand... this subject pops up time after time,, and no one has an honest opinion, or insight?

 

Well, since you asked for an opinion :P

 

As long as we're not making it legal to recieve or take ammo from a TO, spotter, spectator, etc., I don't care how it's worded; your suggestion  does seem a better definition for 'ilegally aqured' though.

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actually both,, change the wording, and make it legal to bring it to the line however yude like,,,   change it to,,,,, it is illegal to  after the stage has begun, you cannot receive it from any other source.

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14 hours ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

it wud much simpler to just say,,, Illegal ammo is ammo received from an other person once the stage has started,,,,, but it still must be staged correctly....  

 

 

ok    change the rule and wording....  make it legal to have it brought to the line however yude like,,,  then ,,,  once the stage has begun you can not receive ammo from any outside source, ie,, TO, SPOTTER, or anyone else

 

 

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38 minutes ago, Cheyenne Culpepper 32827 said:

 

 

ok    change the rule and wording....  make it legal to have it brought to the line however yude like,,,  then ,,,  once the stage has begun you can not receive ammo from any outside source, ie,, TO, SPOTTER, or anyone else

 

 

 

I'd add one small bit of info to that.  "Unless stage instructions specify, ammo does not have to be loaded "from the body"."  If I want to carry an entire box of shotgun shells to the line and set it wherever I'm shooting the shotgun, so be it. There's most definitely no competitive advantage so, why prohibit it?

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32 minutes ago, Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L said:

Fine tune your idea and present it to your TG and have them run it up the flag on the TG Wire and see how it fares.

I am actually good with the existing rule,,, however,,, it seems every few months it comes up here in a wtc  and you can explain it til the cows come home and it still comes up or people disagree,,,  I was hoping some of the ones that disagree wud chip in....

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38 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

I'd add one small bit of info to that.  "Unless stage instructions specify, ammo does not have to be loaded "from the body"."  If I want to carry an entire box of shotgun shells to the line and set it wherever I'm shooting the shotgun, so be it. There's most definitely no competitive advantage so, why prohibit it?

 

THIS.

 

 

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We had a stage the other day where you started pistols on the right, moved left for the rifle then went back to the right for the shotgun. I was standing by my gun cart when my girl friend moved left I saw she had absolutely no shells on her belt. Just for fun I grabbed a box of shells and went to the prop on the right. As she came back her hand goes to the empty belt and she yells "I got no ammo" which was my signal to pour a half box of shell onto the prop. The whole posse started laughing and cheering. She of course ended up with 4 misses.

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3 minutes ago, Stogie said:

...The whole posse started laughing and cheering. She of course ended up with 4 misses.

 

How dare anyone laugh and have fun when playing make believe cowperson!

 

:unsure:

 

:D

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I don't think it's a rule issue. Mostly it's the R.O.'s lack of attention. In order to be a good R.O. one must be as focused as the shooter. That means an R.O. can only run 5-6 shooters max, then hand off the timer. It's not a privilege to run the timer, it's work. 

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13 hours ago, John Barleycorn, SASS #76982 said:

In PA we would call that robbery (force, however slight) we always add a charge of receiving stolen property aka RSP too. ^_^

 

And Armed Robbery at that!  Heavily armed!  Very serious!

 

seamus

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Rewording the rule may be helpful.

 

Things have changed.  Many years ago, many of us only had a limited capability for holding shotgun shells.  Some had none but pockets.  Back then it was pretty much accepted that in such cases, you could stage your ammo.  I don't think it was ever an advantage over carrying it in a good slide or belt. 

 

But that was when we were a little more friendly to folks just starting out.  Now we are VERY serious about our competition.  I say that as a moderately serious competitor, but wish it were a little more like it once was - especially when there was no advantage gained.  Watching someone waving around their shotgun while digging in pockets for shells is not my idea of fun or preferred safety.

 

It seems this ruling is driven by the same folks that brought us the confusion about procedures and misses back in 2001 - something from which we have never completely recovered.

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58 minutes ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

...........when we were a little more friendly to folks just starting out.  Now we are VERY serious about our competition.  I say that as a moderately serious competitor, but wish it were a little more like it once was - especially when there was no advantage gained.  Watching someone waving around their shotgun while digging in pockets for shells is not my idea of fun or preferred safety.................

 

 

I learned a long time ago, even before joining SASS, not to get caught up in why rules were created.  Get's my blood pressure up to dangerous levels.  That being said, I totally agree with you comment above.  I understand certain costume and firearms conventions due to the nature of SASS.  I also understand rules about shooting and otherwise negotiating a stage.  But sometimes...........SOMETIMES...........I get to scratching my head wondering WHY?  Why does this rule even exist? 

 

In this case, even if it truly is needed, why is it so cumbersome?  Sure seems to me it could be simplified by stating "Shooter must bring their own ammo to the shooting line.  Unless otherwise stated in the stage instructions, ammo does not have to be loaded from the body." Simple, straight forward, no competitive advantage, not safety issues. 

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Almost every proposed "simplification" of the rules can be countered with multiple "WtC?"s that require further clarification or interpretation (which usually varies from shooter to shooter, club to club, MD to MD, etc.). There is rarely a catch-all rule that covers every possible permutation of a particular circumstance.

 

Shooters, ROs, TGs, and Instructors bring situations to the Wires (FYI, there are separate restricted forums for Instructors and Territorial Governors) that, either real or hypothetical, demand a ruling to determine what (or if) a penalty is warranted...those are often repeated in other forms of social media (e.g. Facebook).

The "learned" (or not) opinions run from "NO CALL"s to MAXIMUM/MULTIPLE PENALTIES available, whether addressed in the rulebook or not.

 

The combined WB/ROC is currently working on incorporating the bulk of the regulations and appendices into a single Handbook to make it easier to find the answers to the majority of questions...but we cannot FORCE the members to actually "RT*M" or attend RO Courses (or take reading comprehension classes).

BTW - The revised Shooter Handbook and RO Courses will NOT provide the history or reason for specific rules that, for the most part, have been "inspired" by past incidents that required codification in the interest of consistency.

As often noted, 99% of the rules are due to action/inaction by 1% of the competitors.

 

 

...and, just for the record (to address past accusations), I am NOT a lawyer (apologies to those esteemed members of the bar here)...one of my jobs in real life for the past 42 years has been an ODA-licensed pesticide consultant...if you need something killed, call/email/txt me.

:ph34r:

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Marauder SASS #13056 said:

Rewording the rule may be helpful.

 

Things have changed.  Many years ago, many of us only had a limited capability for holding shotgun shells.  Some had none but pockets.  Back then it was pretty much accepted that in such cases, you could stage your ammo.  I don't think it was ever an advantage over carrying it in a good slide or belt. 

 

But that was when we were a little more friendly to folks just starting out.  Now we are VERY serious about our competition.  I say that as a moderately serious competitor, but wish it were a little more like it once was - especially when there was no advantage gained.  Watching someone waving around their shotgun while digging in pockets for shells is not my idea of fun or preferred safety.

 

It seems this ruling is driven by the same folks that brought us the confusion about procedures and misses back in 2001 - something from which we have never completely recovered.

no,,,, illegal ammo was defined in either 06 08  or 10,,,,, came after someone took sg shells from a TO at EOT.... that is when this was "clarified" and a penalty for using illegal ammo was instituted

 

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the ONLY reason I brought this up was,  a thread on FB and several folks interpreted it incorrectly,, and wanted it made clearer...  I tried my best but to no avail... go figure...  and given the opportunity didn't post here, one did on the RO forum,,,,

 

 

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Cheyenne,

 

If you reread my post, I think you will see that I was referring to when the rules mixed up P's with misses in 2001/2002 time frame. 

 

I realize that this particular rule came much more recently.

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apparently there is little interest,,, so,,,   

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23 hours ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Almost every proposed "simplification" of the rules can be countered with multiple "WtC?"s that require further clarification or interpretation (which usually varies from shooter to shooter, club to club, MD to MD, etc.). There is rarely a catch-all rule that covers every possible permutation of a particular circumstance.

 

Shooters, ROs, TGs, and Instructors bring situations to the Wires (FYI, there are separate restricted forums for Instructors and Territorial Governors) that, either real or hypothetical, demand a ruling to determine what (or if) a penalty is warranted...those are often repeated in other forms of social media (e.g. Facebook).

The "learned" (or not) opinions run from "NO CALL"s to MAXIMUM/MULTIPLE PENALTIES available, whether addressed in the rulebook or not.

 

The combined WB/ROC is currently working on incorporating the bulk of the regulations and appendices into a single Handbook to make it easier to find the answers to the majority of questions...but we cannot FORCE the members to actually "RT*M" or attend RO Courses (or take reading comprehension classes).

BTW - The revised Shooter Handbook and RO Courses will NOT provide the history or reason for specific rules that, for the most part, have been "inspired" by past incidents that required codification in the interest of consistency.

As often noted, 99% of the rules are due to action/inaction by 1% of the competitors.

 

 

...and, just for the record (to address past accusations), I am NOT a lawyer (apologies to those esteemed members of the bar here)...one of my jobs in real life for the past 42 years has been an ODA-licensed pesticide consultant...if you need something killed, call/email/txt me.

:ph34r:

Well  in that case , how do I kill all the d**n Stink Bugs and Box Elder Bugs, we are being over run with. My current pesticide is Demon. Doesn't seem to have much effect.

 

 

 

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25 minutes ago, Boulder Canyon Bob# 32052L said:

...if you need something killed, call/email/txt me.

:ph34r:

Well  in that case , how do I kill all the d**n Stink Bugs and Box Elder Bugs, we are being over run with. My current pesticide is Demon. Doesn't seem to have much effect.

 

Just this one time I'll make a recommendation on this forum:

Check to see if Tempo SC ULTRA is labeled for use in your state. 

16ml per gallon of water. 

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On ‎9‎/‎26‎/‎2017 at 1:23 PM, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

Almost every proposed "simplification" of the rules can be countered with multiple "WtC?"s that require further clarification or interpretation (which usually varies from shooter to shooter, club to club, MD to MD, etc.). There is rarely a catch-all rule that covers every possible permutation of a particular circumstance.

 

I haven't walked a mile in your shoes, nor would I want to.  But from my vantage point it seems the more you try to clarify, the more WtC questions you get.  I would think that if you have fewer, more basic rules, you'd have fewer questions.  What isn't expressly forbidden in the rules is legal.  Simple and straight forward.  Even Ole Lumpy Grits could understand. :P  Of course I know what looks good on paper doesn't always turn out the way in real life. :(

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29 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

Just this one time I'll make a recommendation on this forum:

Check to see if Tempo SC ULTRA is labeled for use in your state. 

16ml per gallon of water. 

Thanks

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