73 Extraction Problem When Shooting BP

[Hawkeye Kid]

I have been having an extraction issue on multiple 73 rifles (32-20 & 38) when shooting black powder.  Extractor falls to grap the fired case, and that ends the rifle string.  I have been using a pick to clean under the extractor claw between stages. I will also use the pick to clean under the extractor.  The disaster doesn't happen  every stage, once or twice in a match.  Anyone else have this problem?  Any good suggestions to correct it?  When the extractor is clean, spring tension is good.

[J-BAR #18287]

I suspect your rifle is begging for lubrication.  I like to keep the bolt and carrier wet with Ballistol, spritzing the action every two or three stages.  If you keep the crud soft not much is going to accumulate under the extractor.

[Colorado Coffinmaker]

I have three suggestions.  One.  There is a notch cut in the breach end of the barrel for the extractor to drop into.  Insure it is deep enough for the extractor to drop ALL the way into it.

 

Two:  Check your Head Space.  Often with excess head space, the case will recoil into the Bolt face and engage the extractor (Smokeless).  Often with the generous chamber dimensions, the case will foul just enough to stick in the chamber and not recoil (BP and Subs).  Excess head space will often result in the extractor never snapping completely over the case rim.  Light loads will also cause this.

 

Three:  Insure the extractor isn't loose.  It should NOT float in the tip of the bolt.

 

With 32-20 and 38 you should not have enough Blow-By with ANYTHING to foul the raceway for the extractor in the bolt. 

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

How new is your 32-20 and have you tried it with Smokeless?  If it is Uberti, it is a common problem for the extractor not to be fitted properly at the factory on these.  They use the same bolt assembly as the .38/.357 and it is often too loose.  Mine did it occasionally and needed some extractor fitting.  

 

Also, does it have a short stroke?

[Hawkeye Kid]

The 32-20 does have a short stroke installed.  Also installed is a solid piece firing pin.  This improved the feeding issue I had due to the use of the 38 bolt in a 32-20 rifle.  Is there a good method to measure the headspace?  I used a slip of paper (0.004 in) and held it between the bolt face and cartridge.  On the 32-20 the paper would rip when pulled.  On two other rifles done by well known smiths, paper would pull out.  On a third rifle, paper would easily slide out.  Checked four more, 38, 45, 44-40, 38-40 all would allow the paper to pull out without ripping.  The 32-20 has the tightest space.  On two original Winchesters, the extractor actually rises slightly when the lever is fully closed, and drops back in the cartridge rim as the lever is opened.  

[Abilene, SASS # 27489]

This may not be related... BUT...I am currently fitting a C&I 3rd gen kit to my 32-20.  I hesitate to mention because I am not finished fitting, but after modifying the front insides of the carrier per instructions, the action works very well, but it will leave a round (dummies) in the chamber frequently.  Putting the stock parts back in, no problem.  However, the carrier is not dropping all the way to the bottom of the frame, so the instructions say to bend the lifter a bit, and I have not yet done that.  That may well fix the problem.  But for the moment, SS=FTE, stock=okay.

 

Now if yours has had the assorted race parts in it and was working properly then started failing, well you can probably disregard this.

[Hawkeye Kid]

Abilene 

My initial issues were more with chambering the rounds.  I found the bullet shape was key to chambering.  The bullets from Ringer or SNS worked the best.  Bullets with a ring above the crimp grove were the worst.  The solid firing pin also helped with keeping the bolt aligned. 

The ectract issue is only when shooting BP.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

11 hours ago, KH24 said:

My initial issues were more with chambering the rounds.  I found the bullet shape was key to chambering.  The bullets from Ringer or SNS worked the best.  Bullets with a ring above the crimp groove were the worst.  

 

Indicator of a really tight chamber-throat-to rifling transition.   Your rifle needs a little more throat, or you will continue to fight to get a good bullet for it.   A truncated cone design will fit such a throat better than a RNFP folks most commonly try.  The driving band ahead of the crimp groove should nicely fit into the throat of the chamber if it has been throated properly.

 

11 hours ago, KH24 said:

 

The solid firing pin also helped with keeping the bolt aligned. 

The extraction issue is only when shooting BP.

 

Your headspace test almost sounds like the extractor hook gap is not wide enough to readily snap down over the rim, because you are clamping down on the paper so tight as to tear it.  Take gun to a light-use range with some of your BP loads where you can test it.  A BP load has a lot less sharp recoil than smokeless.  If the extractor hook is tight, it may be taking the recoil to set the head firmly back against bolt face to get the hook to snap down.  That's too tight, and you can with a needle file or disk type dremel grinder tip very lightly open the gap by filing on the back side of the notch in the extractor hook.    

 

Good luck, GJ

[Bittertrigger]

Sorry if this a stupid question but when does this issue happen, is it intermittently or does start after 3 or 4 stages have been shot

the reason I'm asking is my 73 will work find shooting BP for about 4 stages then I can feel it getting hard to chamber and exteract 

my 66 can and has ran 6+ stages with no issues. 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Quote

 

my 73 will work find shooting BP for about 4 stages then I can feel it getting hard to chamber and exteract 

my 66 can and has ran 6+ stages 

 

 

Pretty classic sign of chamber getting fouled with BP residue.   Probably a .45 Colt chambered gun?     Yep, that's what .45 Colt does with BP in most lever guns.  

 

What's the chambering on the 73 and the 66?  Before we go farther making wild guesses....

 

Good luck, GJ

[Hawkeye Kid]

Garrison Joe,  Thanks for the suggestion.  Will go to the range this weekend and try it.  Will report back when done.  Really like the 32-20 cartridge, fill full of 3F, makes plenty of smoke, and is light on recoil.

 

Bitterrtrigger,  Usually happens after a few stages.  Doesn't seem to be an issue chambering the rounds.  At the NY State shoot, shot 30 rounds speed rifle (about 5.5 sec -slow), and 3 practice stages before I started have an issue.  In the match it happen on the last two stages costing me 4 misses. I was cleaning the rifle between every stage.

[Ranger Sgt. Jake McCandless #3368]

52 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

Pretty classic sign of chamber getting fouled with BP residue.   Probably a .45 Colt chambered gun?     Yep, that's what .45 Colt does with BP in most lever guns.  

 

What's the chambering on the 73 and the 66?  Before we go farther making wild guesses....

 

Good luck, GJ

What Garrison Joe said.

Finally got tired of all the work arounds for my 45 colt chambered 66 & 73 rifles. I had a talented barrel maker line the less than desirable factory chambers in both,end of problems with black powder rounds.        Adios   Sgt. Jake

[Bittertrigger]

1 hour ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

Pretty classic sign of chamber getting fouled with BP residue.   Probably a .45 Colt chambered gun?     Yep, that's what .45 Colt does with BP in most lever guns.  

 

What's the chambering on the 73 and the 66?  Before we go farther making wild guesses....

 

Good luck, GJ

Both in 38

brass has no  resident 

i  suspect that the 73 has i tighter chamber than the 66 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Clean the 73 and take a good look at the chamber with a strong light.  Your 73 almost certainly has a long chamber so it can hold a  .357 round as well as the .38 specials you are shooting.   Rough chambering and extraction can occur with a lot of fouling starting on the "unused" chamber surface and then spreading back toward the breech end.  

 

 

Quote

brass has no  resident 

 

Meaning you are not getting lot of residue (aka fouling) on the outside of the .38 cases?     Well, that's a good thing at least.  

 

If you see lots of rough surfaces in the 73 chamber, running one of the carbon-buildup-remover reamers into the chamber might be worth while.  This is a new reamer made to cut just smaller diameter than the chamber specifications, designed to skim off the carbon buildup between where a .38 case stops and the .357 chamber ends (mostly used with revolvers, but can be used in the rifle too).   That would clean out fouling that might be resisting your cleaning efforts - maybe hardened fouling from leaving petroleum oils in the gun and firing BP over that oil, which can create hard fouling.

 

Your experience is not the normal for a well cleaned and natural-lube-seasoned BP gun.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

 

[Bittertrigger]

Thanks you GJ 

[M.T Chambers, SASS#76185]

 

On 9/18/2017 at 1:56 PM, KH24 said:

I have been using a pick to clean under the extractor claw between stages. I will also use the pick to clean under the extractor.

 

KH24,

Does this mean that you have removed the extractor from the bolt and cleaned under it?  Montana Max was having similar issues with his rifle until we removed the pin and extractor and cleaned all of the crud from the extractor groove.

 

MTC

[Amarillo Rattler]

The extractor slot on my 38 bolt was so full of fouling after 1,000 plus rounds that the extractor would not consistently engage the brass

 

After removal/clean/reinstall the extractor I apply Eezox to all gaps on the extractor during each cleaning.

 

Problem solved.

 

Amarillo Rattler

 

 

[Hawkeye Kid]

I have been using a dental pick to slightly lift up the extractor and spraying cleaner underneath it.  Removed the extractor - no residue underneath. 

[Hawkeye Kid]

[Hawkeye Kid]

picture of bolt and cartridge

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

The hook surface contacting the front of rim looks worn, so that instead of being vertical, it has a fairly good angle, with bottom edge well off the rim.  I'd be tempted to go at the surface there with a jewler's file and just square it up.

 

Does the extractor have enough tension?   It should be just on the verge of painful on tip of finger to pry the extractor up so the bottom of the hook rises up to the top of the bolt.  I measure that tension with a trigger pull gauge or fish scale and a small loop of wire that I catch under the hook and pull straight up with gauge on other side of the loop.  5 pounds is what I use as a minimum.  If less, extractor is shot and should be replaced (rebending it never seems to work).

 

Good luck, GJ

[J-BAR #18287]

On 9/18/2017 at 12:56 PM, KH24 said:

I have been having an extraction issue on multiple 73 rifles (32-20 & 38) when shooting black powder.  Extractor falls to grap the fired case, and that ends the rifle string.  I have been using a pick to clean under the extractor claw between stages. I will also use the pick to clean under the extractor.  The disaster doesn't happen  every stage, once or twice in a match.  Anyone else have this problem?  Any good suggestions to correct it?  When the extractor is clean, spring tension is good.

 

 

Garrison Joe knows a lot more about tuning an extractor than I do, so I will take his word as gospel.

 

But before working on an extractor that appears to be ok most of the time ("...when shooting black powder.." indicates the extractor works ok on smokeless rounds and part of the time when shooting black powder rounds)  I suggest again that you try lubing the action with a spritz of Ballistol every other stage.  You may already be doing this but I cannot find any comment in your posts about lubrication during the match.  Keeping the blowback fouling soft will allow the cartridge rim to mush the crud out of the extractor rather than having to use a pick for cleaning.

 

I'm not a gunsmith so I would not try to tweak an extractor until it fails more completely.  It seems easier to me to spritz the action a couple of times during a match.

 

But, as GJ says, good luck in any case.

[Hawkeye Kid]

Update:  I squared up the hook surface as suggested.  Did the Garrison Joe shake test - shake up and down cartridge will stay in; sideways - falls out.

At the range shot  30 rounds of smokeless - no issues.

Next shot 20 rounds w/o cleaning of black (full cartridge of 2F) no issues

Cleaned rifle - the last 3" or so of the barrel gets full of crud.  The 2F seemed much worst then using 3F; cleaned under the extractor; next 10 shot had the extractor issue.

Cleaned again - this time really good and spritzed the bolt with Ballistol.   Shooting very slow - all rounds extracted.  Shot 10 more without cleaning - again very slow - all extracted without a problem.

Cleaned again w/spritzing the bolt and chamber - 10 rounds fast (4.5 seconds) no issue; next 10 w/o cleaning - problem.

 

This leads me to believe the issue is a tight chamber as suggested by Garrison Joe.  Going to the Eastern Divisional this week, will bring the rifle and ask Cody to look at it.  He has done a few other rifles for me, with excellent results.

 

Going to also switch to APP - the crud that was brushed out of the barrel was horrendous.

 

Thanks for all the comments and suggestions.

[Warden Callaway]

Maybe not hijacking this topic but maybe somewhat related.  

 

I am recently a proud owner of a Winchester Miroku 44WCF.  It came with a Pioneer short stroke kit installed.  From the get-go I had failures to fire and ejection problems. I was at a loss as to what the cause may be as the previous owner had no problems.  

 

But I have a theory that relate to some of the comments in the topic mentioned.   I was shooting smokeless cowboy loads with 165 grain bullets that I had evolved for my Smoke Wagons.  To get them to work reliably in the Smoke Wagons,  I had to trim back the resizing die to push the  shoulder back so they would drop free into the chamber.  The more I shot the Winchester, the more FTF and ejection problems came up.  I had 6 FTF and as many failures to eject in last 20 rounds I shot. If the cartrege faired, it generally ejected.  

 

In the investigation process,  I found the gun had a LOT of headspace.      So.  Why did it work for the previous owner and not for me?  Well, here is my theory.  I was using light loaded ammo sized tighter than necessary for the rifle.   And I cleaned the chamber.  As I shot the gun, the cases would come out with black splotches that didn't relate to blowby.  I cleaned the bore by pulling a snake from chamber to muzzle.  Then I took a brass brush and bent it some 45° and worked the chamber over really well. Then wrapped a cleaning patch around the brush and scrubbed it out.  

 

The previous owner said he cleaned it from the muzzle.  This could have left a lot of crud build up in the chamber.   If he was shooting heavier loads and sized less than what I'm sizing my loads, the combination may have made it possable for it to shoot ok for him as the cartrege was probably headspaceing on the shoulder instead of the rim. 

 

I replaced the Pioneer short stroke kit with the original parts and have shot several hundred times without a single FTF or ejection problem.

 

 

Here is a factory Winchester Miroku above one with the Pioneer short stroke kit below (before I put factory parts back in it.) 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Last 3" of barrel fouls badly - 

THAT problem is caused by running out of lube in a BP load.  Big Lube bullets were designed to combat that problem.  APP will also solve the problem because the fouling from that IS lube for the bullet.  You will need a bullet design with lots of space for lube and a good BP lube if you want the barrel not to foul out at the muzzle.  

 

Also, firing BP after having shot smokeless lubed bullets is a great way to create some hard fouling that will be hard to clean out.    After you shoot any smokeless, you need to scrub bore and bolt well with smokeless cleaner, dry that out, then clean with your BP cleaner and leave with a little Ballistol or PAM residue (the Murphy's Oil soap in PAM will stay behind to provide some degree of rust prevention).  But Ballistol on a wet patch will be better. 

 

Next time to range, put a .38 special pistol bore brush on a flexible pistol cleaning rod.  The flex shaft will let you scrub chamber with some PAM or other cleaner at the range just by opening the action.  Then put a dry patch on and dry out the chamber.   Do that every stage (ten rounds).   See if that helps keep the gun running.

 

Good luck, GJ