38 Special Brass

[Ace Hanlon]

Would like to get some thoughts from others about when to retire brass used in cowboy shooting.  I d-prime used brass before cleaning using stainless steel pins in a Franklin tumbler.  I check each piece of cleaned brass for split cases and sort by head stamp for storage.  I reload using a Dillon 550 and use Winchester & Sellier Bellot primers for monthly matches.  Federal primers for major matches.  Recently I have noticed that some brass cases seem to require less force to insert a new primer but it's difficult to determine how loose the primers may be considering the machine leverage.  Thanks

[Keystone, SASS # 47578]

Hmmm, never thought much about it but I also noticed that since wet tumbling with ss pins the primer pockets are very clean and primers seat with minimal effort. Not sure how to safely check fit without the possibility of activating a live primer other than depriming  newly load case on the 550 or with a universal decapping die.

 

Hasta Luego, Keystone

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

When you see small case mouth cracks.

This is SASS-It ain't NRA Bullseye. 

I'm load'n .38 that I've had for over 30 years.

S&B primers are larger than USA made primers. That has much to do with what you feel when seating a primer.

OLG

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Unless primer falls out, I load 'em all.   Federals will seat pretty easy, but I've not had problems with "too loose".    Loose primer pockets usually are caused by excess pressure in the load - something most of us never get.    (Poof more like most loads   )

 

Good luck, GJ

[J-BAR #18287]

Do an experiment.  Leave the spent primer in the pocket when you clean cases.  Then de-prime, and reprime and load as normal.   I don't have trouble with seating primers (Federal & S-B ) on my Dillon 550 after tumbling (corncob) with the spent primer in the case.  

 

I lose cases to split rims, not primer pocket problems.  And I reload them until they split or are lost on the range.

[Yusta B.]

40 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

When you see small case mouth cracks.

This is SASS-It ain't NRA Bullseye. 

I'm load'n .38 that I've had for over 30 years.

S&B primers are larger than USA made primers. That has much to do with what you feel when seating a primer.

OLG

What have you measured ? I just looked at a new (black box) of S&B & they measured .1755 to .176, same as my Federals. Maybe older (green box) measure different ?

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

1 hour ago, Yusta B. said:

What have you measured ? I just looked at a new (black box) of S&B & they measured .1755 to .176, same as my Federals. Maybe older (green box) measure different ?

Haven't use S&B primers in many years. 

What I posted, is what I noticed when I had'em.

They are a 'harder' primer. 

Don't get me wrong. S&B makes top quality components, and is a NATO supplier.

I have shot thousands of rounds made by them, and have never had any issue.

OLG

[Marauder SASS #13056]

I hear that the black box S&B's are the same size and easier to set of than the older Green box products.

 

Sounds like a nice change!

 

I too have not had problems with primer pockets but have only used US made primers, - Winchester and Federal for years.  And CCI primers before that.

 

If I notice even the beginning of a split, I throw them out.

[Abilene Slim SASS 81783]

Ace, is all your brass from the same manufacturer, or a mix of head stamps?

 

I shoot range brass and notice a difference between brands. Never bothered to find out which ones are harder or easier to load as it's made no difference in performance for our game.

[Ace Hanlon]

9 minutes ago, Abilene Slim SASS 81783 said:

Ace, is all your brass from the same manufacturer, or a mix of head stamps?

 

I shoot range brass and notice a difference between brands. Never bothered to find out which ones are harder or easier to load as it's made no difference in performance for our game.

I have many different head stamps in my collection of brass.  I to have noticed some different manufacturers brass is hard to seat primers such as S&B  which are difficult to seat and Remington and Federal brass seem to be easy to seat.

[J-BAR #18287]

I use mixed head stamp/range brass for practice sessions.    I use Starline for match rounds and I treat myself to several hundred new Starlines every so often to compensate for loss at the match.  It's not that expensive, and the uniformity from using one brand is comforting.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

My understanding - is that S&B small pistol brass has their primer pockets made slightly smaller than other brands.

AND that their primers are slightly undersized as well to load into their brass.

I have no measurements to back this up - it is just what I was told.

 

But, I have found that S&B primers have an easier "feel" when seating in my brass AND that correspondingly S&B brass has more resistance if I am using other primers.

I have found a similiar ease when loading Remington primers as well.

[BLACKFOOT SASS #11947]

I load them until they split.   I'm not getting into any primer issues.

 

Blackfoot

[Max Payne]

Load 'em till they split. I usually see it on the 650. I chamber-check all those going thru the rifle, & if I missed them during the load, they show up in the chamber checker.

 

Even if I miss a crack visually on the 650, I can tell when I set the bullet on the belled case.

 

I don't chamber check the ones going thru the pistols. Any splits show up at the loading table, & I can't remember ever seeing one at the loading table. Prob have. Just don't remember one.

[Krazy Kajun]

2 minutes ago, Max Payne said:

Load 'em till they split. I usually see it on the 650. I chamber-check all those going thru the rifle, & if I missed them during the load, they show up in the chamber checker.

 

Even if I miss a crack visually on the 650, I can tell when I set the bullet on the belled case.

 

I don't chamber check the ones going thru the pistols. Any splits show up at the loading table, & I can't remember ever seeing one at the loading table. Prob have. Just don't remember one.

Max.....those pesky pistol misses are prolly caused by split brass.....I'm sure it's not because didn't aim correctly!

 

Kajun

[Captain Bill Burt]

39 minutes ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

My understanding - is that S&B small pistol brass has their primer pockets made slightly smaller than other brands.

AND that their primers are slightly undersized as well to load into their brass.

I have no measurements to back this up - it is just what I was told.

 

But, I have found that S&B primers have an easier "feel" when seating in my brass AND that correspondingly S&B brass has more resistance if I am using other primers.

I have found a similiar ease when loading Remington primers as well.

I've never used S&B primers, but I have used their brass and I also get more resistance when seating primers (Federal) in it.

[Crooked River Pete, SASS 43485]

Just checked some primer pockets, S&B were at .173 dia, starline, Winchester, R-P and Federal were .1745 to .175.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

13 minutes ago, Crooked River Pete, SASS 43485 said:

Just checked some primer pockets, S&B were at .173 dia, starline, Winchester, R-P and Federal were .1745 to .175.

Yayyy

I like when it seems like I actually knew what I was talking about.

Thank you for taking those measurements.

1/100th of an inch aint much - but I guess its enough to change the feel.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

I would also be check'n the diameter of the primer pocket in the case. 

OLG

[Ventura Slim, SASS #35690]

I'm with Jbar.  No need to de prime prior to tumbling etc

 

 I buy starline brass and federal primers as well.  Planning on going to Tombstone so bt new starline brass for that and poly coated bullets.

 

I wish I could say never a squib but its happened a few times on the clock.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

12 hours ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

1/100th of an inch aint much

Umm, difference between 0.173 and 0.174 is one thousandth of an inch.  

 

And that's even less.

 

Some of this reloading stuff is rocket science.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

40 minutes ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

Umm, difference between 0.173 and 0.174 is one thousandth of an inch.  

 

And that's even less.

 

Some of this reloading stuff is rocket science.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

Probably explains why NASA has never recruited me. 

Stupid decimal points and math.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

1 hour ago, Creeker, SASS #43022 said:

Probably explains why NASA has never recruited me. 

Stupid decimal points and math.

 

Isn't that also what you tell the IRS.....

OLG

[Nate Kiowa Jones #6765]

Back to the issue of defective cases.  When using miscellaneous range brass you stand the chance of using some that has stretched from over pressure or even just max loads reloaded several times. It's more common with the 357's but it can happen to the 38's.  There is a clue but the brass needs to be clean inside. What happens on ignition is the front portion of the brass swells and sticks to the chamber wall until the pressure drops. But farther back not so much. So the brass will stretch just slightly usually just in front of the fillet near the base. This is why if you have ever had a case separation it normally leaves the front 2/3's or so in the chamber. If your used range brass is clean inspect the inside. If it has seriously stretched you will see a slight ring inside that is not visible on the outside.

[Yusta B.]

18 minutes ago, Nate Kiowa Jones #6765 said:

Back to the issue of defective cases.  When using miscellaneous range brass you stand the chance of using some that has stretched from over pressure or even just max loads reloaded several times. It's more common with the 357's but it can happen to the 38's.  There is a clue but the brass needs to be clean inside. What happens on ignition is the front portion of the brass swells and sticks to the chamber wall until the pressure drops. But farther back not so much. So the brass will stretch just slightly usually just in front of the fillet near the base. This is why if you have ever had a case separation it normally leaves the front 2/3's or so in the chamber. If your used range brass is clean inspect the inside. If it has seriously stretched you will see a slight ring inside that is not visible on the outside.

Now THAT is a great piece of info !

[Null N. Void]

The only time I've seen case separations in 38 special brass is one shooter who reloaded very heavy loads with heavy bullets.  He was told that they didn't need to be that heavy, but continued to use the loads.  He then had two case separations in one match in rifles.  He reduced the loads and has not had problem since.

 

Most of my brass is what I've bought and has only shot light cowboy loads.  I've never had a problem with case separation.  I check each piece of brass after cleaning for splits at the case mouth.  I usually see about 1/2% that are either clearly split or look funky at the case mouth, and those are disposed of.  

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Even easier to check case length.  When you start to see cases growing in length, you are stretching them - almost always due to high pressure.  Bottleneck rifle cases can stretch with one or 2 loads, straight wall pistol cases take several hot loads.   The brass stretches by thinning that area just in front of the web (case head), pulling brass out of there and "turning it into a longer case".   And, with normal cowboy load shooting, we'll never see stretched cases.

 

What we do see are splits.  38 specials grow little splits at the case mouth (lots of belling often causes this), that get longer each time shot.   .45 Colts pop big splits that run up and down the case starting about mid-high (due to the big chamber diameter that SAAMI standards call for in that cartridge).

 

Good luck, GJ

[Ace Hanlon]

Thanks to everyone for providing their knowledge!  I have learned several new things and will continue to watch the thread in case there is more.  Thanks again