Slicking up a Marlin 1894 .44 Magnum (newby)

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

36 minutes ago, Warden Callaway said:

 

I have a small handful of carriers in my spare parts box.  Maybe I should lock them in the safe. 

 

Stop the brag'n--

OLG

[Warden Callaway]

BTW,  there is a new 357 carrier on eBay $45 and free shipping. 

 

Look at this on eBay http://www.ebay.com/itm/322781752377

 

I don't need them all. 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

One thing great about the Wire is the good info shared by numerous Pards.

 

Lumpy also knows his stuff about Marlins, of which some of the best comes from his experiences.

 

And the Good Lord only knows how much stuff Warden knows, including historical stuff.

 

1. If you decide to JB Weld a piece of jigsaw blade to your carrier ramp, you only need a few .000's height increase in most cases.

And be sure to remove all JB that squishes out after it dries and any part of the blade.   You don't want ANY overhang.

BUT, as mentioned, JB Weld isn't a permanent fix.

 

2.  If you TIG weld your carrier ramp, Warden mentioned the importance of removing your plunger stud and spring.   You will need to clip off the retaining washer, then remove the plunger stud and spring.   You don't want to heat up your carrier with that spring inside because it will likely collapse on you.   And if you remove it, DO NOT clip any of the coils.   Its important that it maintains all of its strength.   

 

3.  Some folks recommend heating and bending the front of the carrier upwards a few .000's.     This works well if done correctly but only for your initial jam issues.  Its doesn't actually correct your timing issues but rather 'deceives' it.   Sometimes, this method creates other issues that are worse than the jam problem you fix.

Your carrier could rise to high while lifting a round up to the chamber AND, if the 'tongue' on the front of the carrier is to short, it won't hold rounds at the portal when the carrier is up.   You will experience a round coming out of your magazine portal going UNDER the carrier.   NOT FUN.

 

4.   Just my opinion (and a few other top Marlin shooters/smiths) is to send your carrier to Gunner Gatlin.   Please remove your plunger and spring before you ship it.    Tell him to do his thing and give your carrier ramp about a .005 height increase from the lower section up slightly past that 'groove' which has worn in your carrier ramp.  I can't speak for Gunner's cost, but you can rest assured its MUCH cheaper than a new carrier.   And his method is permanent.   A new carrier will only wear and you will be back to your same situation.

 

PLEASE NOTE:   all this information is based on your description of your problem and those pictures you have posted.    I can't fully say that the Marlin jam is your problem, but it appears to be.  And the info provided should hopefully help you solve your problem.

 

 

..........Widder

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

X2 on Widder's #4. 

FWIW: I've had good luck on welding the carrier with the plunger in place. By having the carrier sitting upside down in a oil bath with about 1/3 of the carrier above the oil, for welding. You're not lay'n a heavy 'bead' down. Just a bit more than a 'tack' is all.

OLG

[Straight Stock]

Well, I can say I'm learning a lot about how the 94 is designed for sure. Trial by fire so to speak. I just might take the carrier to a welding shop and explain that I only want a bead of weld laid down, and to watch the temps (I like the bed of oil suggestion). Then I'm assuming I can use a rotary tool to grind it down...

[Straight Stock]

Also, wondering what the issue would be with JB weld. Just not durable over time? Introducing different types of jams and problems? Just trying to evaluate all avenues of possible repair. This rifle's intended use is for Wild Bunch (maybe 1 or 2 of these matches a year at most) and backup rifle, or backup to the backup rifle. So it won't get THAT much use, compared to my main match rifles ('66 and '92). Even if the JB isn't a permanent fix...perhaps it is in my case. At least Midway, Brownells and Marlin currently have replacement carriers if I need to buy another one.

 

Link to an article that I may try:

http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/jams-all-kinds/24519-different-way-fix-marlin-jam.html

 

Anyways, I'll keep everyone updated on the progress.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Pistolero,

 

I can not 'personally' complain about JB Weld being used on the Marlin carrier to hold a piece of blade.

But even after it appears to be 'permanent', it can be chipped right off with a knife.   I mean, it just chipped right off with little effort.

 

BUT, to answer your question better, you may get YEARS of good reliability with it being used as mentioned.

But it wouldn't be fair to you if the Wire Pards neglected to share as many options with you as possible and the probability of their success.

 

..........Widder

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

1 hour ago, Pennsyltucky Pistolero said:

Well, I can say I'm learning a lot about how the 94 is designed for sure. Trial by fire so to speak. I just might take the carrier to a welding shop and explain that I only want a bead of weld laid down, and to watch the temps (I like the bed of oil suggestion). Then I'm assuming I can use a rotary tool to grind it down...

 

I DO NOT recommend this-To easy to mess it up.

PLZ- get in touch with Gunner!!

Also-No guarantee the replacement carrier will be any better. Back to square 1.

You could try the JB deal for a trial. I did when learn'n the way of the Marlin.

Also showed me it doesn't last- 

If you do go with the JB, get the slow set type. 

Your rifle-your choice. 

OLG

[Widder, SASS #59054]

51 minutes ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

 

I DO NOT recommend this-To easy to mess it up.

PLZ- get in touch with Gunner!!

Also-No guarantee the replacement carrier will be any better. Back to square 1.

You could try the JB deal for a trial. I did when learn'n the way of the Marlin.

Also showed me it doesn't last- 

If you do go with the JB, get the slow set type. 

Your rifle-your choice. 

OLG

 

PerZackly ^.

 

..........Widder

 

[Warden Callaway]

 

My JB Weld fix lasted a year.  I used silver solder to put it back on. I've not shot the gun much since taking up different rifles.

[Straight Stock]

I was able to get in touch with Gunner, and will be sending him my carrier for his procedure! Thanks to everyone for their replies and input. I sure am learning a lot about these rifles!

[Widder, SASS #59054]

25 minutes ago, Pennsyltucky Pistolero said:

I was able to get in touch with Gunner, and will be sending him my carrier for his procedure! Thanks to everyone for their replies and input. I sure am learning a lot about these rifles!

 

The more you learn, the crazier you'll become..... 

 

If you don't believe me, just look at OLG's picture.   And there's a reason why I don't post mine..... I look like Yul Brenner also..... 

 

..........Widder

 

[John Boy]

Quote

Any suggestions???

Cowboy - after all the screws are tight - take the reload that jammed and look at the bullet nose for any scratches.  My guess is the reloads are too long and you have to play with a few dummy reloads to determine what COAL your rifle likes.  And check the COAL's of all previously made reloads

I've had to do this with several rifles including my Taurus Thunderbolt.

Now a sad story related to proper COAL's ... at last year's State match, I just pulled from inventory 3 boxes of my 45's.  First scenario - loaded 10 rounds in the Taurus - went to the line and the first round jammed badly.  Chambered it quickly and had my finger on the trigger = Boom, over the berm = MDQ because I didn't check the reloads that I took to the match that have a different COAL than the ones that chamber perfectly in the Taurus

[LostVaquero]

I just wanted to say Thank You for all the knowledge.  I picked up a 45 Colt Remlin (one of the limited edition ones) and it has worked like a charm.  I use it for WB and it has never had a hick up.  I have even run 45 Schofield through it and it pretty well runs with those short rounds.  Not as easy as 45 Colt but I was surprised considering the length difference that it handled them. 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

7 minutes ago, LostVaquero said:

I just wanted to say Thank You for all the knowledge.  I picked up a 45 Colt Remlin (one of the limited edition ones) and it has worked like a charm.  I use it for WB and it has never had a hick up.  I have even run 45 Schofield through it and it pretty well runs with those short rounds.  Not as easy as 45 Colt but I was surprised considering the length difference that it handled them. 

 

You need to start buy'n Lotto tickets, with than kind of luck.........

OLG

[Straight Stock]

Ok, so I regret to say that this is not a favorable update.

 

I sent my carrier off to Gunner, got it back, and the rifle still doesn't work worth a damn. I put one round in the magazine tube, and smartly cycled the action. Sometimes it would chamber the round, sometimes I would get the "Marlin jam" again. This is with the same identical round. I tried another round, and got same result. To clear it when it jammed, I had to take out the lever screw. Because there was so much darn tension on it from the jam, I had to pound out the screw with a punch. It was very hard to turn with a screwdriver and I must not have had it all the way unscrewed, so when I hit it with the punch, I messed up the screw and probably the lower tang threads. The screw at the threads end looks chipped, and it now won't thread all the way through back into the lower tang.

 

Thanks Marlin, for making such a piece of junk rifle. I'm sure if I call you'll want to sell me all new parts at your inflated prices. I am so mad and frustrated; I have NEVER had this much trouble with any rifle I've touched in the past. I really don't know what to do at this point other than jam the screw in, forcibly turn it in its threads, take it to a local gun shop, and trade it in for a Rossi. I'm just madder than hell.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Howdy Pistolero.

 

Sorry to hear of your situation and bad results again.

 

Is this 'Marlin Jam' being caused by only ONE round in the rifle?    If so, it isn't the Marlin Jam that most of us are familiar with.

 

With only 1 round in the rifle while you are trying to work the action, does it appear the mag tube plunger is coming out onto the carrier a little.   If so, this could mimic the Marlin Jam.

 

What is the overall length of your ammo?

 

Again, feel free to call me sometime and I will try to help over the phone.

 

HINT:  sometime, when experiencing the Marlin Jam, you can unscrew the BOTTOM floor plate screw and loosen the hammer screw and left side screw and this will allow the carrier to drop.....which will release its tension on the jam.   Then the lever screw can be remove as normal.

After you have cleared the jam, be sure to tighten those screws again..... especially the bottom screw.

This technique doesn't work every time, but it has helped on numerous occasions while I'm helping others with their jam problem.

 

865 / 336-2339   h

865 / 696-1996   c

 

..........Widder

 

[Straight Stock]

Ammo is brand new starline brass. OAL is 1.564 inches and .453 inches diameter. Bullets are .430 diameter. This jam happens with one round in the mag tube or with 10 in it. When it does happen, I can feel an overall increase in drag all the way through the stroke of the lever. Like the entire round from start to finish has something gripping down on it. But when I clear it and cycle again it’s fine. Then it will jam after another couple cycles. I can’t understand it.

 

heres a cartridge after cycling 5 Times. It jammed the 5th time and I noticed the dent on the case where it might have hung up. It happened at the spot where the base of the bullet is. Hopefully the picture shows that

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Its early Wednesday morning and my mind is already churning......which is a dangerous thing sometimes...... 

 

Pistolero, can you post a picture of the TOP of your carrier.   Thanks

 

A few thoughts are circling in my head but honestly, your 1 round problem puzzles me, especially if the rifle works smooth ALL the time when empty.

 

1.  you could have a wrong carrier.

2. your portal could be undersized, and causing a delay in your round clearing it before the carrier moves up in its position.

3. is possible, but not probable, that your timing is too fast.   I can create fast timing but I've never seen it in a factory carrier.

4. because its a Remlin, a combination of stuff could be the gremlin.

 

Fixing problems like this is good for all of us.   We try to picture the situation & symptoms, and then try to cure it without actually seeing the rifle.

And sometimes, I overthink it and miss the obvious.   But its still helpful.

 

..........Widder

 

[Straight Stock]

I'll tear into it tonight and maybe I'll call. I really messed up the lever screw: it threads in about halfway but still holds the lever in. Without ammo, it cycles like butter and is really smooth. The front of the carrier does make contact with the follower as I cycle it, if that helps diagnose.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Check the rounds COAL. Looks to me like the bullet is pushed back into the case.

Don't see much of a crimp. 

Try this-Remove the ejector that's in the left-side of the rec'r, and see if it will now chamber ammo OK.

OLG

[Straight Stock]

Oal is 1.564. Should it be longer or shorter? How will removing the ejector help? The problem is the round is getting stuck halfway on the carrier and halfway in the mag tube. That dent on the case, from that dent to the tip of the bullet was still in the mag tube when it jammed. The rest of the case was jammed on the carrier.

 

What if the lever screw hole in the lower receiver wasn't drilled out on center? Call me crazy, but the screwhole looks off center to me. Hard to explain without a picture, I'll try to add one tonight.

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Your description is typical of TOO FAST of a timing.   And as I stated above, it can happen but would be very rare in a Marlin..... UNLESS,  the wrong carrier is in the rifle.

 

A .38/.357 carrier has a somewhat quicker timing ramp due to its length is shorter  than the .44 length.    If you have a .38/.357 carrier in that rifle, then that would explain your situation..... or at least for my understanding.

 

Showing a picture of the top of the carrier might reveal if its the correct carrier or not for the .44

 

 

..........Widder

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

1 hour ago, Pennsyltucky Pistolero said:

Oal is 1.564. Should it be longer or shorter? How will removing the ejector help? The problem is the round is getting stuck halfway on the carrier and halfway in the mag tube. That dent on the case, from that dent to the tip of the bullet was still in the mag tube when it jammed. The rest of the case was jammed on the carrier.

 

Does the bullet have a crimp groove? Seat the bullet to the crimp groove. Use a roll crimp-

Ejector-Many times I have seen the lower outer edge of the ejector interfere with chambering in the .44 & .45 cal M/94's, and has to be chamfered some.

Agree 110% with Widder about pictures PLZ.

I will go out in a bit and measure the COAL of my SASS .44 mag loads. 

OLG

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

FYI- Just ck'd COAL of 20-rnds of my SASS .44 mag , mixed brass load'd ammo using Bear Creek 240gn moly RNFP bullet.

They ran from 1.565"-1.570".

Penny-have you checked your rounds after they have been cycled a few times for COAL?

OLG

[Straight Stock]

Top of carrier pics. Coal of dummy round cycled several times is 1.548"

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Well, the top view looks to be their 44-45 caliber style carrier.

 

Do you live in KY?

 

I'm only down here in TN, just south of Knoxville.

 

..........Widder

 

[Straight Stock]

Pennsylvania. Time for a call?

[Straight Stock]

Just one round in the mag. During the entire stroke i felt increased resistance but from what i do not know. Ejector not installed at this point. Lever screw needs removed to clear. Lots of tension and pressure on it and needs pounded out after unscrewing all the way.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

You need more crimp on those rounds! The bullet should NOT EVER 'move' from just cycling.

Can you show a picture of where the carrier was repaired?

Are these your reloads or?

Think'n Widder is 'rite' about 'fast' timing. 

OLG

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Also-I see a 'dimple' in the first picture of your carrier, at the bottom left of this carrier.

Wonder if the might cause a issue with free swing movement of the carrier, when the carrier is all the way down.

OLG

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Howdy Lumpy.

 

I just talked with Pistolero and we think we might have narrowed the problem (hopefully).

 

First, we checked for magazine obstructions, etc..... and we checked for any gap between the end of the mag tube where it meets the front of the receiver at the portal entrance.   Everything looked good.

And then Pistolero also checked for trueness of his magtube.   It looked good also.

 

With ONE round only in the magtube, the rifle was cycled with the dummy round until it jammed again.   The pix above shows that spot.

I am leaning towards fast timing.   Therefore, Pistolero is gonna test some shorter dummy rounds for reliability.

 

Lets keep our fingers crossed.

 

..........Widder

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

Widder-PLZ clear your PM bx out some. 

What are your thoughts on that dimple in the picture, where the lever hitts the carrier near the pivot mount?

I also wonder how 'proud' the fix is above the carrier's surface.

I have seen a couple of these, and the lever was out of spec. Proved it when I installed my lever and the rifle ran 'rite'.

OLG

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I would venture to say that the 'fix' just might be a little to 'proud'.

 

As for the lever, we talked about it and he is gonna try to compare the snail cam against another Marlin, although the other Marlin is in a 336 model.

 

For now, he is gonna check out the shorter stuff and let me know how it works.

 

..........Widder

 

[Straight Stock]

Unfortunately the plot thickens. I loaded an empty case, no primer and no bullet into the mag tube. Cycled the lever swiftly like I would in a match and same jam occurs. Cycle slower and the empty case will chamber. Im wondering if the mag spring isnt strong enough to push the case out in time...