Pistols to the table

[Kirk James]

  Is it my understanding that if the pistols are last, they can come to the table rather than the holster?  Can they be set down on the table any other time other than a malfunction?  I am seeing more shooters using this method.  Seems faster.

[Missouri Marshal SASS #50682]

Pistols must be holstered BEFORE the next type gun is fired unless otherwise specified by stage description, i.e. restage on prop.  .  If they are the last gun then they are holstered at the end of the stage.

[Captain Bill Burt]

SHB page 22 

7. Revolvers are returned to leather after the shooting string.

 

As the Marshal pointed out the two pistols together count as a single shooting string, so yes you can place them on the table and at the end of the string return them to leather. 

[Rye Miles #13621]

Yea it's faster, by about 1/4 of a second..........If that!!!

[Captain Bill Burt]

From my perspective 1/4 of a second is a big time difference. At my club's July match the difference between first and second place was .12 seconds, the difference between third and fourth was .46 seconds. 

[Rye Miles #13621]

43 minutes ago, Captain Bill Burt said:

From my perspective 1/4 of a second is a big time difference. At my club's July match the difference between first and second place was .12 seconds, the difference between third and fourth was .46 seconds. 

True, but I said 1/4 of a second IF THAT!! I personally don't see it being any faster at all!

[Jackalope]

10 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

...I personally don't see it being any faster at all!

 

But, if you never measure the difference with a clock, you'll never know for sure.

 

Until then, it's just an opinion with no factual basis.

 

Just sayin'

 

 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Quote

if the pistols are last, they can come to the table rather than the holster? 

 

To get the wording correct to match what I hope was the question, "can the pistols can be restaged to a table or other safe prop temporarily" 

"Coming to the table" sounds too much like "initial staging, and the stage being started with pistols laying on the table"

 

And, yep, one (or even both) could be laid temporarily on a safe platform until the end of their shooting string.   If pistols are split by another type of gun (meaning each pistol is its own string), or when the pistols shooting string ends, the default condition is the pistol(s) from that string MUST be returned to leather.  Gunfighter style shooters doing split pistols get an exception, of course.  Shooter has until next gun is shot to correct the return to leather.  Any specific stage instructions will override the convention.

 

Good luck, GJ

[Judge'm All Duncan, SASS#67320]

15 minutes ago, Jackalope said:

 

 

 

 

15 minutes ago, Jackalope said:

 

But, if you never measure the difference with a clock, you'll never know for sure.

 

Until then, it's just an opinion with no factual basis.

 

Just sayin'

 

 

 

The wise one has spoken!

 

I agree, until you time it how do you know.

[Cowboy Junky]

It's legal......to answer the question. Seeing it a lot. 

[Assassin]

Yes it's legal. However, if the pistol spins around and breaks the 170 guess what. Ask me how I know this, I called the SDQ on myself. 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

Howdy RYE.

As a duelist, it might not be faster for you because you can hold the empty in the off hand and shoot the 2nd revolver with the other. But for a Trad style shooter, it would be a measurable time difference, ASSUMING those pistols are last.

 

..........Widder

 

[Shooting Bull]

6 hours ago, Kirk James said:

  Is it my understanding that if the pistols are last, they can come to the table rather than the holster?  Can they be set down on the table any other time other than a malfunction?  I am seeing more shooters using this method.  Seems faster.

 

How so?  I can see not wasting time holstering the first pistol if they're last on the stage, but if they're first or second it seems to me it would take longer to pick the first pistol back up off the table and holster it before moving on to the rifle or shotgun.

[PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L]

28 minutes ago, Shooting Bull said:

 

How so?  I can see not wasting time holstering the first pistol if they're last on the stage, but if they're first or second it seems to me it would take longer to pick the first pistol back up off the table and holster it before moving on to the rifle or shotgun.

 

The shooters I've observed doing that mid-stage usually holster enroute to the next shooting position.

 

 

 

[Goliath, SASS #41359]

I caught the tip of the grip on my first pistol (which I had placed on the table) and rotated it almost 180 degrees.  That "1/4 second" cost me a SDQ.

So be careful staging the first pistol (I shoot duelist, so I NOW usually hold the empty pistol in my off hand while I shoot the second, and then holster).

[Shooting Bull]

9 minutes ago, PaleWolf Brunelle, #2495L said:

 

The shooters I've observed doing that mid-stage usually holster enroute to the next shooting position.

 

 

 

 

Even if that's the case you still have to take time to pick it up off the table.  Setting it down on the table and then having to pick it back up to holster is adding two additional unnecessary steps. My theory is that you set it down once, in the holster, and don't touch it again until you get to the unloading table. 

 

Set it down on the table + pick it up + set it down in the holster = three movements

 

Set it down in the holster = one movement.

 

Understanding this is all my version of logic which isn't always logical.

[Rye Miles #13621]

1 hour ago, Widowmaker Hill SASS #59054 said:

Howdy RYE.

As a duelist, it might not be faster for you because you can hold the empty in the off hand and shoot the 2nd revolver with the other. But for a Trad style shooter, it would be a measurable time difference, ASSUMING those pistols are last.

 

..........Widder

 

Good point!!!! Plus if you shoot crossdraw as I do, I holster the crossdraw pistol with my left hand as I'm drawing the strong side. I don't see saving anytime by putting it on the table. 

Another good point is what Assassin and Big Boyd said about possibly the gun spinning and breaking the 170!!! YIKES!!!

[irish ike, SASS #43615]

Most shooters who do this do it if the pistols are last in the stage. Doing in between is slower. And as PaleWolf said pick it up and holster while moving would be faster but still another step.

Ike

[Dantankerous]

10 minutes ago, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Good point!!!! Plus if you shoot crossdraw as I do, I holster the crossdraw pistol with my left hand as I'm drawing the strong side. I don't see saving anytime by putting it on the table. 

Another good point is what Assassin and Big Boyd said about possibly the gun spinning and breaking the 170!!! YIKES!!!

 

Yup. All the above points are important to consider. 

 

Just practice the re-holster. 

 

I have also seen a "staged" revolver spin around causing a sweep of shooter and TO resulting in a ruined stage. And not from an inexperienced shooter either. Just a bad revolver "lay down" that got away... 

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

Practice staging on table versus holstering.  Let the timer tell you YOUR reality.

 

Good luck, GJ

 

[Deuce Stevens SASS#55996]

 After reading this I decided to do some quick study and a short video of what I came up with for me. I used my 5.5" Vaqueros to better represent what a broader range of shooters are working with for barrel length. I did five runs. The video below represents the best of the five runs. I never did beat my reholster time on any of the runs going back to the table. I was restating the gun on table as fast as I would feel comfortable doing so in a match. Short of dropping it from the raised position (very unsafe) I'm not sure I could do it any faster.  All that being said when it comes to CAS it's not what you can do once but what you can do ten times in a row when you are talking match work. In many cases I will restage on table, mostly because it is a guaranteed sure thing for me versus possibly missing my holster cause I'm full of adrenaline. Do you own time study. 

 

 

[Straight Arrow Hombre]

13 minutes ago, Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 said:

 After reading this I decided to do some quick study and a short video of what I came up with for me. I used my 5.5" Vaqueros to better represent what a broader range of shooters are working with for barrel length. I did five runs. The video below represents the best of the five runs. I never did beat my reholster time on any of the runs going back to the table. I was restating the gun on table as fast as I would feel comfortable doing so in a match. Short of dropping it from the raised position (very unsafe) I'm not sure I could do it any faster.  All that being said when it comes to CAS it's not what you can do once but what you can do ten times in a row when you are talking match work. In many cases I will restage on table, mostly because it is a guaranteed sure thing for me versus possibly missing my holster cause I'm full of adrenaline. Do you own time study. 

 

 

Yeah, but you're an elite shooter.  I prefer to not practice so that my reholster seems foreign and after the third or fourth stab at my holsters, the prop seems appropriate. 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

EXCELLENT video Deuce.   And very interesting.

 

Did you log what your average was for those 5 runs?

Assuming you didn't have a glitch during a particular run, the average would also give a good indication of the possibilities for a complete 5 or 10 stages.

That .93 vs .97 on one stage might seem insignificant to some, but sometimes, even that small amount of time is the difference between getting the caddilac or the red wagon.

 

And when you multiply that amount times 5 or 10, it can be enormous.

 

Thanks

 

..........Widder

 

[Null N. Void]

What I've found so far with a timer is that there is no significant difference between holstering and putting it on the table IF I shoot the stage cleanly and revolvers are last.  Sometimes one is faster, sometimes one is slower.  However, the big improvement happens about one time in 10 where I don't hit the holster cleanly.  It doesn't have to be much, like catching the sight on the edge of the holster.  That's just enough to slow me down by about 1/2 a second.  Putting the gun on the table avoids that.  

[El Hombre Sin Nombre]

A very good shooter and I were discussing this yesterday. He was saying that it's not a good habit to get into. If you are used to doing it as the last guns shot, it seems fine, but what happens when your instincts take over and you do it in between guns? Well we didn't have to wait long before it actually happened to a shooter on the next stage. He set his guns down and then remembered he still had to shoot his shotgun. Did so with one pistol still on the table.

[Ramblin Gambler]

7 hours ago, Deuce Stevens SASS#55996 said:

 After reading this I decided to do some quick study and a short video of what I came up with for me. I used my 5.5" Vaqueros to better represent what a broader range of shooters are working with for barrel length. I did five runs. The video below represents the best of the five runs. I never did beat my reholster time on any of the runs going back to the table. I was restating the gun on table as fast as I would feel comfortable doing so in a match. Short of dropping it from the raised position (very unsafe) I'm not sure I could do it any faster.  All that being said when it comes to CAS it's not what you can do once but what you can do ten times in a row when you are talking match work. In many cases I will restage on table, mostly because it is a guaranteed sure thing for me versus possibly missing my holster cause I'm full of adrenaline. Do you own time study. 

 

 

 

I like your videos.  They are usually short and to the point.  I don't watch a lot of youtube because most of the time they want to waste my time with filler before getting to the important stuff. 

 

My only comment here is that looks like a matter of training.  When you went back to holster, your left hand went for the second gun as soon as you started drawing your hand back.  When you went to table, you went down with both hands and the left hand didn't come back to retrieve the second pistol until the right hand started drawing back.  I'm guessing you've practiced the holster / draw so many times that it's second nature for your hands to work in unison like that when you're drawing them back.  That's probably where your time difference is. 

 

Fortunately for me this is not something I need to worry about.  Being a gunfighter, if the pistols are last, they never get reholstered on the clock. 

 

[Cheyenne Culpepper 32827]

On 8/28/2017 at 7:56 AM, Rye Miles #13621 said:

Yea it's faster, by about 1/4 of a second..........If that!!!

I won a two day by .04 so yes it's important,,, ask Angry Angus, and lost one by .1

[Cowboy Junky]

Thanks Deuce. I think it may be faster for some people to go to the table only because the table is bigger and you don't miss it.....add to that you have great skill levels that many don't have. 

 

All that said I'm inspiring to holster faster because I can use that advantage on ANY stage and I don't have to remember when to use and when NOT to use it.....and we just saw it can be done.