Let's be the Match Director

[Father Kit Cool Gun Garth]

It’s a hot humid day at the range.

     

About 30 cowboys show up to shoot.

    

The range allows for 6 stages. If you were the MD, how would you split the cowboys into Posse’s and which of the stages would you start them on to ensure that it wasn’t going to create a backlog and at the same time get the Posse’s out as quickly as possible?

How would you create the Posse’s to accomplish this task? Fast shooters separate from slower shooters? Mix the fast with the slow? How many Posse's would you set up? Set stages in all six locations, or leave any number of stage locations open for a buffer between Posses? Double or Triple the use of same targets within a stage, just change the shooting sequence?

Trying to get a feel for what processes might be used in making those determinations.

[Grizzly Dave]

2 Possies, though a case could be made for 3 if you have only well seasoned cowfolk.  But 15 per allows folks to have a break from posse duties now and then.

 

Let shooters sign up for the posse they want to shoot with, move a few around if need be to make the more or less equal

 

Start them on stage 1 and 4.

 

Easy peasey, been doing it for years, not really anything major to think about here.

 

 

[Widder, SASS #59054]

I would probably make 2 posse's and my #1 priority would be to ensure there were sufficient workers on each posse with good TO's.

 

IF all 30 shooters are good workers and good TO's and such, I would also consider having 3 posses.

 

..........Widder

 

 

 

[Krazy Kajun]

With 30 shooters I'd have 2 posses with 15 on each.  Try and balance the posses with enough ROs on each posse to have a least two people per posse who are experienced enough to run the timer.  With 6 different stages I'd start one posse on Stage 1 and the other on Stage 4 to put as much buffer space between them to not have anyone waiting on the other.  As for the make up of the posses with fast and slow shooters you'll find that as a match director you'll more than likely honor their posse requests and then only shuffle people to allow for proper number of timer operators on each posse.

 

Kajun

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

Just now, Krazy Kajun said:

With 30 shooters I'd have 2 posses with 15 on each.  Try and balance the posses with enough ROs on each posse to have a least two people per posse who are experienced enough to run the timer.  With 6 different stages I'd start one posse on Stage 1 and the other on Stage 4 to put as much buffer space between them to not have anyone waiting on the other.  As for the make up of the posses with fast and slow shooters you'll find that as a match director you'll more than likely honor their posse requests and then only shuffle people to allow for proper number of timer operators on each posse.

 

Kajun

This ^

 

no way would I even consider 3 posses of 10. 

[Father Kit Cool Gun Garth]

7 minutes ago, Smokestack said:

This ^

 

no way would I even consider 3 posses of 10. 

 

Smokestack:

    Is the need for good TO's the primary pre-requisite to the number of Posses?

    I only ask this as it would seem that 3 Posses of 10 would move quicker through the stages, and allow all to shoot in a shorter period of time.

    The OP was prefaced with a HOT and HUMID day, and assuming that all shooters want their turn, but may not be pleased with standing around performing duties and such if their time on the range could be shortened?

    Just inquiring, so others would understand the process.

[Hoss]

10 is pretty small. I would go with 2 posses of 15. I've shot on 10, and its doable, but tough. actually shot on a posse of 9, and there is no time for a break.

 

start on 1-4

 

 

 

Posses assignments in order

TOs at least 2, hopefully 3 per posse

posse requests

try to have club officers on each posse. (usually club officers will also be TOs)

balance workers vs non-workers

balance fast shooters/slow shooters

balance new shooters

balance buckaroos

 

PUT YOURSELF ON THE POSSE THAT DOES NOT HAVE TO DOUBLE BACK

 

 

[Appalachian Alan]

23 minutes ago, Father Kit Cool Gun Garth said:

I only ask this as it would seem that 3 Posses of 10 would move quicker through the stages, and allow all to shoot in a shorter period of time.

 

While I certainly have shot with 10 many times, answer this yourself

3 spotters

1 TO

1 Shooter

1 loading

With the other 4, what jobs are you going to choose to not do ?

 

 

 

 

 

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

The number of QUALIFIED timer operators is a huge criteria in assigning posses.

I have shot on a few small posses where I am basically the only timer operator.

Even if there are only 10 folks - by the time I have run 8 people thru the stage - Im tired and my own runs are going to suffer, especially by the time you complete 6 stages. 

 

But an easy way to look at this is simply - how many folks does it take to shoot a stage?

 

1 shooter

1 Timer Operator

3 Spotters

1 person loading

1 person unloading

 

So 7 minimum if EVERYONE is in perpetual motion.

Add a couple more for brassers and target resetters.

 

10 is a barest minimum and no one is socializing, taking a break, fixing a gun, going potty or enjoying themselves.

 

[Cliff Hanger #3720LR]

2 posses.

Posses start on Stage #1 & #4.

A good RO will keep the posse of 15 moving without rushing anyone.

(10 will require everyone to rush)

 

 

[Phiren Smoke GUNFIGHTER]

5 minutes ago, Hoss said:

start on 1-4

 

PUT YOURSELF ON THE POSSE THAT DOES NOT HAVE TO DOUBLE BACK

 

 

Not picking on you Hoss, I am just curious, are there any ranges or clubs that start two posses at opposite ends and work towards each other.  Then pass each other at stages 3 and 4 and continue on, so neither has to double back?

 

Just wondering,

 

Smoke

[Hoss]

6 minutes ago, Phiren Smoke GUNFIGHTER said:

Not picking on you Hoss, I am just curious, are there any ranges or clubs that start two posses at opposite ends and work towards each other.  Then pass each other at stages 3 and 4 and continue on, so neither has to double back?

 

Just wondering,

 

Smoke

Smoke, I don't see that working. Bound to have both on same stage at same time.

[Garrison Joe, SASS #60708]

6 minutes ago, Phiren Smoke GUNFIGHTER said:

Not picking on you Hoss, I am just curious, are there any ranges or clubs that start two posses at opposite ends and work towards each other.  Then pass each other at stages 3 and 4 and continue on, so neither has to double back?

 

Just wondering,

 

Smoke

 

Never seen it done that way because, unless the timing on each stage is PERFECT, you end up at some point with both posses wanting to be on one of the middle stages at the same time, one posse than has to skip over a stage and "double back" later when that occupied stage is free.

 

Good luck, GJ  

[Totes Magoats]

10 on a posse is not fun!  Folks need time to hit the bathroom, reload their blocks/shotgun belt, grab water.  With such a small posse, you go directly from the unloading table, drop off the guns at the cart and relieve someone.  Anything short of that and it's holding up the stage.  Spotters have to double duty to pick up brass.  Unloading table can get held up waiting for someone free to clear guns.

 

15-20 seems to be the sweet spot for posse size.  In the heat of the summer, it's nice to be able to find shade for a few minutes between working the stage and chug a bottle of water.

 

Totes

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

1 hour ago, Grizzly Dave said:

2 Possies, though a case could be made for 3 if you have only well seasoned cowfolk.  But 15 per allows folks to have a break from posse duties now and then.

 

Let shooters sign up for the posse they want to shoot with, move a few around if need be to make the more or less equal

 

Start them on stage 1 and 4.

 

Easy peasey, been doing it for years, not really anything major to think about here.

 

 

That's what I would do. 2 posse with 15 each gives you enough people to relieve each other and also catch a short break. Breaking it into 3 posse would be a strain on just 10 posse members. You need a TO, 3 spotters, scorekeeper, and at least someone manning the unloading table, and possible someone picking up brass. Also account for the shooter on the firing line and you have already 8 accounted for active leaving 2 to load at loading table with no extras. Meaning catching a break and moving posse along, getting relief will be strenuous rough on older shooters. Pity the last person to get relieved and have to immediately go to shoot the stage, it's rough.  MT

 

After posting, I see a lot agree on 2 posse and 15 shooters, and very good reason's why. I can say truthfully, small posse of 7/10 which was normal many times  at a club I use to shoot at, and people disappearing after they shot, especially last stage were many times there was only 1 spotter, TO, scorekeeper, and 2 shooters one on the firing line left. Only time I ever got upset, everyone wanted to shoot, but no one wanted posse duties. The minimum number I like to see on a posse is 12 shooters.

[Marshal Dan Troop 70448]

58 minutes ago, Appalachian Alan said:

 

While I certainly have shot with 10 many times, answer this yourself

3 spotters

1 TO

1 Shooter

1 loading

With the other 4, what jobs are you going to choose to not do ?

 

 

 

 

 

Dont' forget the scorekeeper, another posse duty, Also like to see  unloading officer to clear all firearms for safety and many ranges require it. MT

[Cheyenne Ranger, 48747L]

last time we shot we had 20 folks = 2 posses of 10, group's feeling was 20 was way too many on hot humid day

folks got to sign up on whichever posse they wished--our normal operating procedure

 

started on stage 1 and 4

 

by end our posse was down to 6:  broken guns and heat took its toll.  One cowboy even went down with deep vein thrombosis (DVT)

 

ended up everyone loaded guns at loading table and previous stage's unloading table--they are right next to each other

 

rotated jobs and shot as someone took your working place

 

had a couple of RO IIs in the mix that usually don't RO but were happy to step forward (we have some RO IIs that always jump for the timer)

 

funny thing is we weren't the 'fast guns' posse but finished before the other one.  

 

p.s. all our stages we use in the summer has shade from loading to stage to unloading table.  Also good when it's raining though leaking sun is not the same problem as leaking rain

 

 

[Phiren Smoke GUNFIGHTER]

1 hour ago, Hoss said:

Smoke, I don't see that working. Bound to have both on same stage at same time.

 

1 hour ago, Garrison Joe, SASS #60708 said:

 

Never seen it done that way because, unless the timing on each stage is PERFECT, you end up at some point with both posses wanting to be on one of the middle stages at the same time, one posse than has to skip over a stage and "double back" later when that occupied stage is free.

 

Good luck, GJ  

Kind of thought that would be the case.

 

We normally shoot five stages so stage three would be a bottle neck.  I just wondered if any one made six stages doable.

 

Any way to get back on topic, I agree with others ten shooters can be done in a pinch, but it is not fun.  Twelve would be my preferred minimum.

 

I know what Father Garth is saying a posse of ten can move pretty quickly, but, as Marshall Troop says even the most dedicated workers will be disappearing half way through the last stage.

 

Smoke

[Barry Sloe]

 

 

Enjoy,

Barry Sloe

 

 

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

2 hours ago, Father Kit Cool Gun Garth said:

It’s a hot humid day at the range.

     

About 30 cowboys show up to shoot.

    

The range allows for 6 stages. If you were the MD, how would you split the cowboys into Posse’s and which of the stages would you start them on to ensure that it wasn’t going to create a backlog and at the same time get the Posse’s out as quickly as possible?

How would you create the Posse’s to accomplish this task? Fast shooters separate from slower shooters? Mix the fast with the slow? How many Posse's would you set up? Set stages in all six locations, or leave any number of stage locations open for a buffer between Posses? Double or Triple the use of same targets within a stage, just change the shooting sequence?

Trying to get a feel for what processes might be used in making those determinations.

If, you would take the RO1 and RO2 classes, you would know. 

OLG

[Augustus Goodnight]

15 Per Posse.

Cut it down to 3 bays. 2 Stages to be shot on each bay.

Cuts down on the amount of cart pushin' & Set-Up/Tear Down.

Let the shooters sign up and balance the number on each posse.

Look at the posses and determine which is most likely the faster.

Start the Faster Posse on Bay 1 and the Slower Posse on Bay 3.

Summer hours. During the summer start an hour earlier.

 

We do this at both ACSA & CCSA during the summers here in AZ.

 

[Father Kit Cool Gun Garth]

13 hours ago, The Original Lumpy Gritz said:

If, you would take the RO1 and RO2 classes, you would know. 

OLG

 

OLG,

    I ask these questions not for myself, but for others who may be pondering the same thing.

    Maybe at a match they are hot and sweaty wondering why the Posses weren't smaller so they could still shoot but get out sooner.

    Not everyone, I'm guessing, doesn't mind hanging around in hot, humid weather all morning.

    Most of us, including myself, enjoy the comradery.

[The Original Lumpy Gritz]

8 minutes ago, Father Kit Cool Gun Garth said:

 

OLG,

    I ask these questions not for myself, but for others who may be pondering the same thing.

    Maybe at a match they are hot and sweaty wondering why the Possession weren't smaller so they could still shoot but get out sooner.

    Not everyone, I'm guessing, doesn't mind hanging around in hot, humid weather all morning.

    Most of us, including myself, enjoy the comradery.

But-That is not how the question was presented.

I stand by my reply. Heck-just RTDM(read the dang manual)will explain it.

Respectfully,

OLG

[Yusta B.]

Deleted for poor taste.

[Jasper Agate]

We live where it can get hot and it was last month. We had 6 stages planned and after the finish of the 2nd stage we took a vote whether to shoot 4 or 6 stages. Most everyone was good with the outcome of the vote by the shooters. That being said you'll notice be reading all the replies that no one was in favor of 10 member posses and neither am I.

[Creeker, SASS #43022]

Kit,

Keep asking your questions.

Yes, these are all things you will learn over time, participation and taking RO classes - but you can only shoot X number of matches a month.

The WIRE offers everyone the opportunity to use M-F for learning and sharing as well as weekend match time.

 

If you are ever in doubt about an issue - I am always at your service.

[Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474]

Another vote for two posses of 15.

1 T/O

3 Spotters

1 Recorder

1 brass picker

1 shooter

3 at load table

1 Photographer

4 +/- getting their acts together or getting ready to spell off somebody else.

[Shooting Bull]

I'll cast another vote for two posses of 15. A 10 person posse CAN be done, but it's not fun. It's not fun at all. All work, no play and it's exhausting. 

 

Another of your questions that I think needs more focus is the number of bays. You said it was hot outside. Here where hot is HOT we try to beat the heat in as many ways as possible. One of those ways is to minimize the amount of hiking necessary to finish the match. That means three, sometimes as few as two bays. Tons of variations available to shoot different scenarios on the same targets. For instance, set up five pistol targets. You can use all five on one stage, just the middle three on the second stage and all except the middle target on the third stage. Let your imagination run wild. 

[Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474]

We try to get our matches done by 3:00 on a 5 stage match.

We find that shooters are fading by then and we still have props, steel and target shrouds to put away.

[Blackey Cole]

Two posses with minimum of one preferred two berms separating allow to sigh up on sheet with 16 positions on each two clip boards after signup check posses for pm and tos are equally dispersed if not switch the tos dropping the bottom shoooters over to the other posse if no a to.

[Smokestack SASS#87384]

34 minutes ago, Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474 said:

We try to get our matches done by 3:00 on a 5 stage match.

We find that shooters are fading by then and we still have props, steel and target shrouds to put away.

What time do you guys start?

[Assassin]

10 minutes ago, Smokestack said:

What time do you guys start?

I was wondering the same thing.

 

It was forecast to be hot at our last monthly. We set up three stages, they were shot two different ways. I used a lot of multiple hit targets, limited movement on stages, which is very unlike my style of stage writing, and we started some stages with gun in hands.. We start at 9:00 am and we were done shooting by 11:30 am. Everything was put away by noon and Belle had scores emailed out by 1:00 pm. 

[Too Tall Bob]

When a person is trying to learn and understand something new they need to participate in ALL facets of that endeavor. For our sport I mean spot, pick brass, help with registration, help with set up and take down, man the unloading table etc. The best way to LEARN is by doing and participating. This way you learn why decisions are made, why posse sizes are established, why posse marshals are chosen and what the responsibilities of a match director entail plus a whole lot more. Although a person can get information and varied answers from a forum like this, the best way to LEARN is to truly take part in all facets of a match. Don't stand on the sidelines filming or what ever, get your hands dirty and participate fully and contribute. This is the best way to learn. Read the hand books - take the courses - talk 1 on 1 with folks to get answers directly related to the circumstance you do not understand WHEN THEY HAPPEN. Learn by doing - it's not that hard nor complicated. Plus, fellow shooters will be more willing to accept, respect and trust someone who pitches in. 

Just my two bits

[CodyMaverick]

4 hours ago, Father Kit Cool Gun Garth said:

 

OLG,

    I ask these questions not for myself, but for others who may be pondering the same thing.

    Maybe at a match they are hot and sweaty wondering why the Possession weren't smaller so they could still shoot but get out sooner.

    Not everyone, I'm guessing, doesn't mind hanging around in hot, humid weather all morning.

    Most of us, including myself, enjoy the comradery.

 

You should definitely take the RO classes when you can but that will not make you an MD.  The classes will help you learn the questions but they will not teach you the answers.

 

 It takes a lot of involvement in the putting on of matches to see and ask how others do it and to observe what works and what doesn't.  And +1 to what Too Tall Bob just posted as I was typing.

 

Go help setup at your local matches and then get there early on match day and see how the posses are formed.

 

The TO spot is most important and you really need at least 2 on a posse that can run the clock.  If you only have one, who runs the clock while that one shoots? 

 

 

1 hour ago, Shooting Bull said:

I'll cast another vote for two posses of 15. A 10 person posse CAN be done, but it's not fun. It's not fun at all. All work, no play and it's exhausting. 

 

Another of your questions that I think needs more focus is the number of bays. You said it was hot outside. Here where hot is HOT we try to beat the heat in as many ways as possible. One of those ways is to minimize the amount of hiking necessary to finish the match. That means three, sometimes as few as two bays. Tons of variations available to shoot different scenarios on the same targets. For instance, set up five pistol targets. You can use all five on one stage, just the middle three on the second stage and all except the middle target on the third stage. Let your imagination run wild. 

 

Assuming your OP is saying you have 6 bays, why use them all?  That's a lot of work to setup and tear down all of those bays with targets, stands, props, tables, etc...

 

At all 4 clubs in my area, we routinely have some very fine matches and use only 2 bays.  30 people would be an excellent turnout.  20 shooters give or take a couple is more typical.  With only a few extra bits of steel you can write up 3 good stages for one bay and another 3 for the other bay.  At least we seem to think so.

 

If we have more than 20 we'll have 2 posses but only 1 posse if we have less than 20.

 

With 2 or more posses the person making the list is always someone that knows most everyone and what their strengths and weaknesses are and will try to make them balance with a mix of faster & slower shooters with consideration for folks that like to shoot together and newer shooters that need extra time and assistance.  That's one area where only experience can help you.

 

With a small group we will frequently have assigned jobs and will break in the middle to trade off.

 

Sometimes one person will have 2 jobs.  e.g. Brass Picker will check guns at the unloading table,  Spotter will reset targets,  Score keeper will also spot,  Shooters look out for each other at the loading table. etc...

 

You can have a match with as few 5 shooters.  (we have, quite a few times)

- Everyone loads at the same time and leaves all guns on the table, when 1 person has shot they put their guns back on the table and take up the position for the next shooter and so on.  When everyone has finished the stage we all unload and then reload together.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Cold Lake Kid, SASS # 51474]

We seem to shoot a lot slower than you folks. Not enough practice.

That said: We try to get started before 9:00 to 9:30; three stages before a lunch break, 1/2 hour for lunch and then the last two stages.

Our gang up here in Canada is older and we don't handle the heat too well.